Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The HAMAS head quarters is deliberately under a hospital. Part of the reason it's never been directly destroyed but uh that's uh probably abut to change.
Will that work? What stops them from just not doing it?
Edited by miraculous on Oct 12th 2023 at 5:10:07 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Since someone mentioned that the "40 babies were beheaded" thing is likely to be wrong (in the sense that it's a mix of conflation, exaggeration and Chinese telephone-style distortion), apparently the raver who was said to have been raped, murdered and paraded naked by HAMAS is actually alive and well in a Palestinian hospital.
And the report of a pregnant Israeli woman being murdered by HAMAS militants? Apparently it's worse than there being no actual evidence of such a thing; the "evidence" presented was actually from a Sabra and Shatila massacre and the depicted woman is Palestinian.
Also, the IDF stooped to the low of doctoring images and videos to show Israeli soldiers standing over HAMAS militants, when in fact they were Gazan civilians that were rounded up, killed and had weapons planted near their corpses.
The first two are making me increasingly becoming suspicious that Russia and China's cyberwarfare farms are deliberately spreading disinformation against both sides, just to fan up the already blazing flames to make the conflict even worse in the hope that NATO (especially the US) is forced to split its attention and military aid that would've otherwise gone to countering Moscow and Beijing's respective interests and activities.
That vile bastard has no room to talk about morality.
Edited by MarqFJA on Oct 12th 2023 at 3:20:26 PM
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Partialy, yes, but given the density of Gasa population they would have to go out of their way to distance themselves from civilians.
This is the description of the Hospital from the link that I gave:
And is my point:
(And that is the continue of what I started to quote):
In 2014, the hospital was described as a “de-facto headquarters” for Hamas.[2] The hospital was reported by Amnesty International to have been used by Hamas to torture and murder dissidents.[3] The current director of the hospital is Dr. Muhammad Abu Salmiya.[4]
My point is that: This is not a decision that stems from a lack of a possible place. It is a decision that stems from using the hospital as a shield.
Goku Black
The Element of Hyperbole.
I still can't decide whether social media is a good thing or a bad thing to have when it comes to geopolitics.
Kaze ni Nare!
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
The Louk family heard info from Gaza that she’s alive. Only places that broke it are tabloid-like orgs like NY Post.
Edited by Ominae on Oct 12th 2023 at 5:42:28 AM
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
לא היה לי זמן לעשות הגהה אז סליחה אם יש שגיות בתרגום לאנגלית.
I didn't have time to proofread so sorry if there are errors in the English translation.
Where did you get this from? I checked and it seems to be still up in the air. Not saying it wouldn't be nice. But her mother weirdly never states an actual source In any article I saw.
אני חושב שמדובר על שמוע שהגיעה לישראל (לישראל לא מישראל!!!) אני מנסה למצוא את המקור של והוכחה סתירה/אימות.
I think this is a rumor that came to Israel (to Israel not from Israel!!!) I am trying to find the source of and proof of contradiction/verification.
The quote that the original user quoted.
pparently the raver who was said to have been raped, murdered and paraded naked by HAMAS is actually alive and well in a Palestinian hospital.
Link to the post:
Edited by TURI12345 on Oct 12th 2023 at 3:54:28 PM
x5 As I said. Some positions are choosen with civilian infrastracture as a shield. But even withoit that, they would have many close to civilians. Not to mention that as they are/were partly an insurgency, the distinction is not as prounonced as with state militaries.
Foreign Troper
I mean, the "killed" part was in question, but the "paraded naked in the streets" part is obviously true, as we have it on camera.
Whether or not she was raped remains to be seen.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Because Netanyahu wasn't brazen enough to work for the extremists in his coalition or go after the courts back in 2021. He is now.
There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
I don't know if it's the same woman, but I did see people point out that a German(?) woman who was touted as having been raped based on her crotch being bloody is actually looking like that because she was sitting on her visibly handcuffed hands (as in, her wrists were bleeding and that blood soaked into her dress).
Jersualem Post is saying they've seen photos of beheaded babies.
As well as burned ones.
This is the most depressing argument for people to be having.
Yeah, I don't have much faith in trusting practically any Twitter accounts nowadays. Is there an actual good source for this?
“We’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.” - Lewis Carroll
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/war-hamas-always-wanted
FA mentions that the raid on Israel from Gaza was likely a show of force against (Muslim) countries that try/or have normal relations from Israel. The author says that this'll force said countries to work harder to stop Iranian influence on Hamas (and other similar groups).
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
The official Prime Minister of Israel twitter account has posted pictures of what it says Netanyahu showed to US Secretary of State Antony Blinken. You have to have a twitter account to see them.
It comes with a "Warning: These are horrifying photos of babies murdered and burned by the Hamas monsters."
They really are upsetting.
Edited by bobwolf on Oct 12th 2023 at 12:07:41 PM
Foreign Troper
Glad I don't have an X-Account, so I won't be tempted......damn.....
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Goku Black
Well thank god I don't have Twitter (im sorry X) to see that. I did see Bliken break down. He seemed genuinely devastated to have to see that (especially since he probably had to as part of his job).
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
About the idea that Netanyahu allowed this attack to happen as part of some conspiracy, you need to understand that the guy isn't nearly as competent as he seems.
Remember that a few years ago Israel went through 3 inconclusive elections? That was because Netanyahu has a reputation of being a political back stabber, so all the right wing parties who should have been his natural allies, didn't want to join him because he betrayed them in the past.
That stalemate only ended when Netanyahu managed to convince one of the centrist politicians to join him and pinky promised he wouldn't backstab him. Then he did it anyway.
Now, he is stuck in a narrow coalition with people so extreme, even the extremists dosen't want to sit with them, because he just doesn't seem to understand that constantly burning political bridges is not smart.
Edited by nnokwoodeye1 on Oct 12th 2023 at 10:00:49 AM
So is it confirmed that the 40 or so baby beheadings did happen? I see some articles stating that the Israeli army later said they had no information on the allegations of the beheading of babies
The news seemed to stem from Israeli news channel i24 News but it was swiftly picked up by everyone else. Media houses quoted Israeli soldiers as being distraught and comforting each other by what they’d purportedly seen.
Hours later, the Israeli army itself said there was no information confirming these “allegations” that Hamas had “beheaded babies”.
The current theories, to my understanding, are that either there was a conflation between “40 babies were killed” and “some people were beheaded” or that they were unconfirmed claims by members of the IDF forces on the ground, and because it’s incendiary and sound vaguely plausible it spread like wildfire without anyone in the media bothering to fact-check it.
Poll: Majority blames gov’t for Hamas massacre, says Netanyahu must resign
An overwhelming majority – 86% of respondents, including 79% of coalition supporters, said the surprise attack from Gaza is a failure of the country’s leadership, while a staggering 92% said the war is causing anxiety.
Furthermore, almost all the respondents (94%) believe the government must bear some responsibility for the lack of security preparedness that led to the assault, with over 75% saying the government holds most of the responsibility.
Goku Black
What seems to have happened is the 40 infants killed is true. And a few may have been decapitated. This mutated to become 40 infants beheaded. Not sure why the method of death is so important but it's sparked a weird debayr.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
It’s the “babies on pikes” thing to make your enemy subhuman. It ultimately doesn’t matter because dead is dead, but if one side is trying to frame things in a way that is viewed as worse, that could hurt even more innocent people and should be called out.
i. hear. a. sound.
I'll be honest, this baby thing is just numbing due to the fact that the ones pushing it are awfully silent about Palestinian babies being blown to smithereens.
The Guardian are attributing this quote
to Israeli Energy Minister Israel Katz:
Translation of the tweet here
.