Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
Forcible repatriation of all Jewish inhabitants including those who were born and raised their entire lives on that land is about as feasible as telling me and all other American-born Chinese to go back to to the PRC despite having lived all my life in the US, which is stolen indigenous land.
Two weeks ago, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, a settler leader, has said he hopes to double the population of West Bank settlers in the coming years. And he instructed the Israeli government ministries to prepare for the addition of 500,000 settlers in the West Bank.
Days later, IDF Central Command chief Yehuda Fox signed a military order revoking the ban on Israelis entering Homesh, one of four settlements Israel evacuated in 2005 as part of its withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, The High Court of Justice has recognized that Homesh sits on private Palestinian land, but even before this order, the army did not allow the return of Palestinian farmers to their lands there.
Those two incidents provoked an objection from the Biden administration.
Israeli officials have responded by telling their US counterparts that Smotrich’s goal of one million settlers is not official policy, and that the Homesh order was necessary due to political pressure the premier is facing from his far-right coalition partners.
On Wednesday, Netanyahu’s government passed a new two-year budget.
Apparently the new budget allocate nearly $4 billion in "discretionary funds", much of it for ultra-Orthodox and pro-settler parties.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/5/24/good-for-all-israel-passes-controversial-pro-settler-budget
Alternative link:
https://news.yahoo.com/israels-netanyahu-allies-pass-budget-053106776.html
Maybe worth mentioning that as we speak right now, there are more than 450,000 Israeli settlers live in the West Bank excluding East Jerusalem, with an additional 220,000 Jewish settlers residing in East Jerusalem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
Edited by jawal on May 28th 2023 at 12:09:30 PM
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
I think the only thing we were talking about with regard to repatriation is the fact that settlers (who are living on land that the Israeli government stole from Palestinian families, and, often where the Israeli government demolished Palestinian’s homes and built over their farms in order to occupy) would need to return to Israeli territory in the case of a two-state solution. And no, they wouldn’t want to do that, which is why Israel’s rampant expansion of illegalsettlements has rendered a two-state solution unworkable.
And, to be clear, Israeli settlers DO NOT want to live in a Palestinian state. At all. Them staying on the land and the land becoming part of a Palestinian state in a two-state solution is not something that could be expected to have support from either side. (And, in the case of violent extremist settlers like those in Hebron who have been terrorizing Palestinians for decades - for example, theowing rocks at children when they walk to school - they would engage in more widespread and coordinated violent attacks if any Palestinian state was given authority over them.)
I don’t think anyone was saying that Jewish people within the state of Israel would need to leave, not in either of a one- or two-state solution. That’s obviously not something that can be done.
Edited by Galadriel on May 28th 2023 at 4:23:37 AM
Today, Israeli forces killed a Palestinian security officer, and injured 8 others during a raid in the West Bank city of Jenin.
But fear not, Israel military said "it was looking into the report".
.............................
In other news but always in the West Bank
In a video posted on social media, settler leader Yossi Dagan recited a Jewish benediction at the entrance to the Homesh seminary school , a large white prefabricated shack at the top of a West Bank hill.
Link 1:
Link 2:
Link 3:
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/israeli-forces-kill-palestinian-officer-093409947.html
Edited by jawal on May 29th 2023 at 3:19:28 PM
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
A three-year-old Palestinian boy has died four days after being shot in the head by Israeli forces
The toddler was in a car with his father, in Nabi Saleh, in the occupied West Bank.
An Israeli ambush opened fire, injuring the father, the Toddler and a third man who was in the car.
The Israeli army later issued a statement saying that actually they were trying to ambush two gunmen who earlier has shot at a nearby Jewish settlement, and that the army regretted harm to "non-combatants".
The toddler was taken to a hospital, but he died from his injuries four days later.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65812442
Edited by jawal on Jun 5th 2023 at 5:04:15 PM
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
I think there's one thing that everyone needs to keep in mind when discussing the fact that Israel needs to be compelled with the threat of armed force in order to solve this travesty of a situation in any remotely just way: Whoever is threatening armed intervention would have to maintain this threat for decades on end, until the Israeli voting base is dominated by a new generation has emerged that doesn't give a damn about any outraged older folks' rejection of the new status quo, in order to make sure that when the threat of violence is lifted, the country doesn't immediately reverse course and try to regain its self-declared "rightful land".
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
The US gives staggering amounts of military (and nonmilitary) aid to Israel, and extensive military tech cooperation on top of that. Just cutting off all that aid, without any threat of imposing military force, could make a difference in Israel’s policy choices - HW Bush got Israel to hold back on illegal setllement building when he cut off some aid in response to it. He was the last US president with any guts when it came to Israel.
If we could organize trade sanctions on top of that from the US and a substantial number of other countries, a lot of Israelis would need to think hard about their priorities.
The problem isn’t that the world can’t do anything, the problem is that the countries with the most pull either back Israel to the hilt or don’t care.
Edited by Galadriel on Jun 7th 2023 at 2:31:52 AM
There is also the fact that israel isnt the same spot before, back them being pro israel did a modicum of sense because it was a small state surrond by many others who were hostile to it and make war a couple of times in fact and there was(and maybe still is) a big anti semtici component to pro palestine side
But thing have change, israel isnt the small david and have grow to become a big and armor goliath who can shurg must palestine have to offer with ease, most of the states already admit israel is here to stay or are doing deal with them so nowdays people should be harsher on them.
Is also another issue of being to vital for US that they abused that to getting away with shit like saudi arabia and turkey(which tell us a lot of israel right now).
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
The Israeli army mounted a raid into the Palestinian city of Ramallah.
Their objective was to demolish the residence of the man responsible for a bombing attack in Jerusalem last November.
Israel has said the policy of demolishing homes of perpetrators is both punitive and a deterrence to potential attackers.
Anyway, some youth hurled rocks at the soldiers who responded by firing live bullets, stun grenades and tear gas at the crowd.
So six people got transferred to the hospital, at least three suffering from gun wounds.
EDIT: Number of wounded raise to 35.
Edited by jawal on Jun 8th 2023 at 5:34:27 PM
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
In an interview with Sky News, Netanyahu said that illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank are not an obstacle to peace.
Edited by jawal on Jun 9th 2023 at 5:16:20 PM
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You see bibi, issue is not like israeli can said they put a "come right back" 3000 years ago and everyone have just lend the land you said is your now, you know?
ughhhhhhh
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
I mean, I agree with his bad-faith phrasing. It's not a problem for Jews to live there. I believe migration should be much freer than it is now across the board, and these are areas with deep cultural, historical, and religious significance for many Jews.
The issue is the sociopolitical structures that brought them there and that govern them and their Palestinian neighbors — more like subjects, really — once they arrive, and the fact that settlement expansion entails Israel expelling Palestinians from their lands and replacing the Palestinian natives, rather than living alongside them.
ok boomer
Predator Loyal to the Zerg Swarm
Seconded. The problem isn’t that Israelis are living in Israel, it’s that they act like colonialists to the Palestinians that were already there. I this has to change for any hope to peace to happen.
Edit: I don’t mean to offend any Palestinians. I just want to look at an avenue for this issue to end peacefully.
Edited by Flameal15k on Jun 9th 2023 at 1:48:48 AM
Though even by international law, the West Bank is NOT part of Israel, but belong to the Palestinian territories.
So those 500,000-700,000 illegal settlers that live in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, (With the current government talking about doubling that number) are NOT living in Israel and they are indeed an obstacle to peace.
Edited by jawal on Jun 9th 2023 at 11:19:15 AM
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
I will said another issue is the rethoric here is "this is jewish(and more exactly israeli) land that we let them and can pick up at any time" it kinda invoke a lot of imaginary that feel often feel stright up manifest destinity, israel edition.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
A procrastination in of itself
A report by Amnesty International said that there were "possibly" war crimes committed during the last month fight in Gaza by both Israel and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
On the other hand, Amnesty said that rockets launched by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and fell short in Gaza also appear to have killed three Palestinian civilians, including two children.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65889058
Edited by jawal on Jun 13th 2023 at 8:14:05 PM
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
In the name of being honest
“Unfortunately, today, some of us are acting even worse than those BDS activists, harassing Knesset members and ministers – sometimes even with violence – in the streets of New York, even though this was a government that was elected by an overwhelming majority” Chikli added, though the current government only holds 64 of the 120 Knesset seats.
Chikli, who was invited to speak at the closing plenary of the gathering, compared the hundreds of thousands of Israelis who have been protesting the government’s planned judicial overhaul to the “spies who spoke badly about the Land of Israel,” mentioned in the Torah portion read this week in synagogues around the world.
High praise.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
So 2 weeks ago, Israeli soldiers ambushed a Palestinian car, shooting and killing a three-year-old toddler called Mohammad al-Tamimi and injuring others.
After a thorough investigation, the Israeli military explained that it was just a "mix-up".
The statement also faulted "incorrect decision-making" and assured that:
.....................................................
Another recent case of "incorrect decision-making" is that of a 78-year-old American citizen from Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
Israeli forces detained Omar As'ad at a makeshift checkpoint in his West Bank hometown of Jiljilya last January.
The soldiers temporarily gagged him with a strip of cloth and cuffed his hands with a zip tie.
Later, they left him unconscious at a construction site in the middle of the night. Saying they assumed he had fallen asleep. He was later found dead in the early morning with a plastic zip-tie still around one wrist.
Israel's Military Advocate General said on Tuesday that the soldiers who left him, will not be criminally prosecuted but will face disciplinary measures.
The army's chief legal body said in a statement that its decision was made "following the hearings and after a thorough examination of the investigation materials, which indicated no causal link was found between the errors in the conduct of the soldiers and As'ad's death"
Links:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65812442
Israel's nationalist-religious government on Sunday tabled plans to approve thousands of building permits in the occupied West Bank, despite U.S. pressure to halt settlement expansion that Washington sees as an obstacle to peace.
Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich (who also holds the defense portfolio) said:
Jewish settler groups obviously welcome the news.
Shlomo Ne'eman, mayor of the Gush Etzion Regional Council and Chairman of the Yesha Council, said:
Since entering office in January, Netanyahu's coalition has approved the promotion of more than 7,000 new housing units, in the West Bank. It also amended a law allowing the settlers to return to four settlements previously evacuated.
Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
Saying that Israel should be dissolved would probably fall under the rule, but since no one has done that there's no problem.
But yes, as always if one suspects something is wrong then hollering a mod is best.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 28th 2023 at 3:08:04 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn