Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Condemned by who?
Egypt and Iran, plus the Palestinians.
Generally most news media worry that it's a serious escalation as Hamas naturally promised vengeance right afterwards.
Foreign Troper
I mean the situation was already escalated, given the 3 terror attacks beforehand.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
There's been 25 dead in the last week, on top of the parliamentary struggles.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
What exactly is the point of such a raid on the mosque, other than terrorizing and brutalizing the Palestinians? Tel Aviv has to have some sort of justification to present to the Western world in order to keep up the thin golden veneer on the pile of bullshit that is its claim to being a civilized democracy.
Edited by MarqFJA on Apr 15th 2022 at 6:47:09 PM
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Does it, though? The USA has got their back no matter what, so as long as they hold on to plausible deniability, they can do pretty much whatever they want to eventually remove Palestinians.
Yeah, Zionists have long since showed that they don't give a fuck about Palestinian lives. Israel behaves like this because they know there will be no consequences.
I'd love to prove them wrong but unfortunately anti-Zionism isn't powerful enough yet in the US.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Israeli settlers were seeing entering the Al-Aqsa compound.
Cringe but free
Al Jazeera: Israeli attack on the Gaza Strip as tensions soar in Jerusalem.
No casualties or injuries were reported by the Palestinian health ministry on Tuesday.
The Ezzedine al-Qassam Brigades – the armed branch of Hamas – said they retaliated with surface-to-air missiles. No Palestinian group claimed responsibility for the rocket, which Israel said was shot down by its Iron Dome interceptor.
The attack comes after a rocket fired from the besieged Gaza Strip into southern Israel was intercepted on Monday, the first such attack in months amid soaring tensions over Al-Aqsa Mosque in occupied East Jerusalem.
Hamas had warned that any incidents at the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, a site revered by Muslims and Jews, would be a “red line” after Israeli forces raided the site in occupied East Jerusalem several times in recent days, arresting hundreds of Palestinians and leaving dozens injured.
On Friday, at least 152 Palestinians were wounded by Israeli police inside the mosque compound, the latest outbreak in a surge of violence that has raised fears of a slide back to wider conflict.
Palestinians accuse Israel of encroaching at Al-Aqsa during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. Israel says Palestinian protesters seek to disrupt Muslim prayer for political ends and to prevent visits by Jews, who are celebrating Passover.
Egypt and Jordan, which inked peace agreements with Israel decades ago and coordinate with it on security matters, have condemned the actions of Israeli forces at Al-Aqsa Mosque.
Jordan – which serves as custodian of the site – summoned Israel’s chargé d’affaires in Amman on Monday to deliver a message of condemnation.
Jordan’s King Abdullah II said on Monday that Israel’s “unilateral” moves against Muslim worshippers at Al-Aqsa Mosque seriously undermined the prospects for peace in the region, according to state media.
The monarch was speaking with UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres when he made remarks that Israel was undertaking “provocative acts” in the mosque compound that violated “the legal and historic status quo” of the holy shrines.
Crackdowns by Israeli forces on protesters who were demonstrating against attempts to forcibly expel Palestinians from their homes in the East Jerusalem neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah last year led to an escalation as Hamas fighters launched rockets and Israel launched an 11-day assault on Gaza.
Jordanian Prime Minister Bisher al-Khasawneh on Monday praised members of the Islamic Waqf, the trust that oversees the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, “who stand tall and those who throw rocks at the pro-Zionists who are defiling Al-Aqsa Mosque while under the security of the Israeli occupation government”.
In response to al-Khasawneh’s remarks, Bennett said: “This is unacceptable to us. This is a reward for the inciters, especially Hamas, which are trying to ignite violence in Jerusalem.”
Israel has sought to improve relations with Jordan over the past year and has recently normalised relations with other Arab states over their shared concerns about Iran.
But a recent wave of violence that left 25 Palestinians and 14 Israelis dead has brought renewed attention to Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian territories, which it has sought to sideline in recent years.
Foreign Troper
Today and tomorrow, Israel celebrates 74 years of independence. Huh, it will be an anniversary next year.
Hope there will be no attacks.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Hopefully they'll stop being a brutal settler-state.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
They will not until they start receiving serious consequences for committing their atrocities.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
I'm well aware.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
I think you should called it anti-Izrael instead of anti-Zionism that term is used by antisemites.
Foreign Troper
That's not much better, that implies you are against the existence of the state Israel.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Absolutely not, Zionism is a real ideology that is openly supported by many self-described Zionists. I refuse to capitulate to the bad faith attacks launched by them and their apologists.
The solution to anti-Semitism couching itself as anti-Zionism is to have better anti-Zionism, not cede the concept to bigots.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 3rd 2022 at 11:21:23 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Sorry for possible offense, but while i would normally agree with your reasoning this particual world is at least for me associated with antisemitism so much that i feel it is not possible to recover it. It is certainly not somthing i would use in public instead of saying i dont like izraels goverment or something. You are free to use the word, but i personally wont im sure thats acceptable for you.
Edited by Risa123 on May 4th 2022 at 1:50:18 AM
This logic is unsustainable, the reason it is associated with anti-Semitism is because Zionists will smear anyone who criticizes Israel or opposes its apartheid as anti-Semites. If we stop using it then they'll just smear whatever term we use as a replacement.
It will never end, it's better that critics of Israel and Zionism stand by their beliefs and correctly note that opposing an ethnonationalist ideology is not at all synonymous with bigotry.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 4th 2022 at 5:13:21 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
"the reason it is associated with anti-Semitism is because Zionists will smear anyone who criticizes Israel or opposes its apartheid as anti-Semites. If we stop using it then they'll just smear whatever term we use as a replacement."
What? people conflate zionism with anti semitism by anti semitic who just want to be anti semitic without saying, while Israel have give amunition by using a club to shut down critism, that dosent mean anti semite will not clock their awfull statement under the vein of anti zionism.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
I never said they didn't.
But that's not why anti-zionism would be associated with anti-Semitism, there are large numbers of anti-Zionists who also oppose anti-Semitism. The reason they're ignored is because Zionists have a vested interest in focusing on the bad actors.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 4th 2022 at 6:06:34 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Again i completely agree with you i just personaly dont like the word Anti-zionism. Its not racional.
Edited by Risa123 on May 4th 2022 at 6:54:33 AM
People are generally much more amenable to criticism on the level of “Israel’s government is acting badly” than to criticism on the level of “Israel should never have existed and should be destroyed”, and the latter is what 99% will read “anti-Zionism” as. From a communications perspective, calling yourself an anti-Zionist is shooting yourself in the foot. It alienates a lot of people we don’t need to alienate.
My position is that ideally yes, Israel should not have been created by European powers giving away land that wasn’t theirs to give. But esp by the 1930s-40s it’s not like Jewish people had much in the way of other options given that the rest of the world turned them away when they were fleeing genocide.
I think we’re at the point where a one-state solution is the only viable option, but that’s because the Israeli government has spent over 50 years deliberately and systematically destroying any possibility of a functional two-state solution.
Edited by Galadriel on May 4th 2022 at 7:25:30 AM
Yeah. The existence of the state of Israel is a done deal. There is no point in continually re-debating it.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
For what it's worth there's Post-Zionism, which purports that Zionism is a done deal that was already achieved when the state of Israel was created and thus should've ended in favor of a more ecumenical society past that.
It's probably the position I'm closest to, insofar as the question of whether there deontologically should be an Israel is akin to asking whether any current nation-state in the Western Hemisphere should have been formed. Given the circumstances, a case could be made that it probably wasn't, but it's kind of a moot point this late in the game, and attempting to undo it and repatriate everyone would not only create its own humanitarian crisis but also be literally impossible.
Edited by AlleyOop on May 4th 2022 at 10:38:55 AM
@Galadriel
Edited by Risa123 on May 4th 2022 at 7:59:31 AM
