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HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#3402: Aug 17th 2018 at 1:57:46 AM

Pennsylvania lawmakers consider expanding the statute of limitations for the priests involved in the recent sexual abuse scandal, given the fact only 2 of the 301 are able to be prosecuted.

Unfortunately, changing this will only affect cases going forward. The 299 are permanently off scot-free (because eliminating the statute of limitations now would be a violation of their rights). Still, good idea - I don't think that child sex abuse should have a statute of limitations, in particular because it's the sort of crime that's inherently difficult to prosecute and often covered up for years.

Edited by Ramidel on Aug 17th 2018 at 12:57:33 AM

Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#3403: Aug 26th 2018 at 5:05:56 AM

Former Vatican official claims Pope Francis knew of abusive ex-cardinal, calls for his resignation

I sure hope this isn't true. Not because of the reputation of the Catholic Church, it doesn't make a difference to me, but because of the children that could've been saved from the abuse if not for the inaction of the "moral paragon" of Christianity. Still, it might just be an attempt by the priest to deflect or cover something else up.

Life is unfair...
Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#3404: Sep 27th 2018 at 11:20:43 PM

News from AFP/AP:

After clinching a historic deal, the Vatican and China are involved in fresh negotiations over the fate of "underground" bishops who remained faithful to the pope for decades despite pressure from Beijing, sources say.

The Vatican hopes the negotiations following Saturday's deal — seen as paving the way for rapprochement between the Catholic Church and Beijing — will lead China to soften its approach to those who swore allegiance to the pontiff for decades.

A Vatican source and a Chinese priest told AFP the Holy See could win concessions by the end of the year, though the details of any agreement reached would remain classified.

After a decades-long impasse over who presides over the now roughly 12 million-strong Catholic faithful, Saturday's pact saw Pope Francis recognise seven clergy ordained by Beijing.

The clergy were the final seven to gain recognition from Rome after some 70 other members of the Patriotic Catholic Association (PCA), created by the Chinese government to administer the church, were recognised over the past two decades.

Analysts largely described the deal as a win for Beijing.

China has been waging a broad religious crackdown, with "illegal" churches raided or bulldozed and worshippers harassed, and the underground clergy wants safeguards. Some 20 percent of its bishops are over 90 years old.

- Greater freedoms -

"China has not changed its position on freedom of religion," but the goal is to try to "give more space" to Catholic believers, a Vatican source told AFP.

Saturday's deal "is not very satisfactory" as it stands, "but it is the only one we could get now" he said, predicting that it will be "revised in the next few years".

The accord did not include the 40 or so bishops directly nominated by the Holy See, who belong to China's underground church and have never been recognised by the Communist regime.

The Vatican wants Beijing to protect their rights. It has already been assured by China that they will be not be forced into the PCA.

"Two or three" of them have won acceptance from Beijing so far, and Francis' negotiators hope to get the government to recognise another dozen before December, the source said.

The PCA's statute says its aim is to create an "independent church" — an expression that would appear to rule out the Vatican's oversight. But the Holy See could accept it if it is reinterpreted to mean political independence.

- Trusted observers -

Under the new deal, Francis will have the final say on naming bishops.

"Each nomination will have to be debated. Getting final agreement will be complicated. It will be important to have trusted observers in China," admitted the Vatican source.

A Chinese priest, who previously worked in an underground church in China and returned to Rome last year, confirmed to AFP that negotiations on the recognition of underground bishops by Beijing were underway.

He said that a final agreement that doesn't mention or recognise them would be a severe blow.

"For us priests, we will unconditionally accept the agreement, even if in our hearts we feel terrible. But we will follow whatever is finalised."

Underground bishop Joseph Wei Jingyi in China told the Vatican Insider website this week that a failure to win concessions on the matter from Beijing "could provoke a negative reaction... (and) be used against the pope".

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#3405: Sep 27th 2018 at 11:33:38 PM

I have no doubt this deal will screw over those underground priests. And they realize it too.

Disgusted, but not surprised
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#3407: Sep 30th 2018 at 8:14:54 PM

And by that he's basically telling Chinese Catholics to keep eating shit.

"Of course you can trust me, even if I just made a deal with the same regime that is pushing you underground and burning your churches!"

Edited by M84 on Sep 30th 2018 at 11:18:37 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#3408: Sep 30th 2018 at 10:59:04 PM

To be fair, he's still the Pope, and accordingly short of battalions.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#3409: Oct 1st 2018 at 12:21:10 AM

Regardless, he probably shouldn't be too surprised if some Chinese Catholics respond by metaphorically (or maybe even literally) flipping him off.

Edited by M84 on Oct 2nd 2018 at 3:20:42 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#3410: Oct 1st 2018 at 9:47:26 AM

[up][up]He's usually been short of battalions, a few Papal States notwithstanding.

But Xi Jinping poses little threat to the Vatican compared to Henry IV in his day. And yet three different Popes had the rocks to face the latter down over investiture. Nor were the Holy Father's predecessors ever tempted to offer such concessions to the Soviet Union, Bismarck's Germany, Napoleon's empire, or other states that wanted to make the Church their housebroken pet.

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#3411: Oct 1st 2018 at 2:10:26 PM

I’ll admit that one of the problems with Pope Francis is not being willing to take a hard stance in issues in which that is needed.

Like, I understand his enthusiasm for tending bridges and using diplomacy, but some there are some things you can’t compromise with, especially with the walking Human Rights violator that is Communist China.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#3412: Oct 1st 2018 at 2:35:08 PM

[up] Speaking his mind about touchier issues for the Catholic Church was one of the things that made him so generally liked in the first place (speaking for the many catholic colleagues I know). Too bad he seems to be regressing back to standard, but less extreme pope mode.

Life is unfair...
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#3413: Oct 1st 2018 at 5:36:35 PM

[up]

The only thing that may make this current course of action reasonable would be if Xi Jinping has told him behind closed doors that he plans to purge all presence of the Church in China.

Considering the track record of Red China and the lack of substantial reaction by the world, that could be on its way.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#3414: Oct 1st 2018 at 5:36:56 PM

More updates:

Two Chinese Catholic bishops are to take part for the first time from Wednesday in a synod, or advisory body meeting, with peers at the Vatican, the Holy See said.

"The Holy Father had invited Chinese bishops in the past but they were never able to come," said Cardinal Lorenzo Baldisseri, who is to preside the synod of bishops on "Young People, the Faith, and Vocational Discernment" from October 3-28.

The meeting of more than 300 church officials, outside experts and youth delegates will take place in the shadow of an existential crisis faced by the church owing to cases of widespread sexual abuse of minors by clergy and lay officials in several countries.

On September 22 meanwhile, the Vatican and China reached a provisional agreement under which Pope Francis recognised seven clergy initially ordained by Beijing without the Vatican's approval.

The accord could pave the way for the normalisation of ties between the Catholic Church and the world's most populous country.

One of those recognised, Bishop Joseph Guo Jincai, is to attend the October synod along with Bishop John Baptist Yang Xiaotin, another member of the Patriotic Catholic Association (PCA), a body created by the Chinese government to administer the church.

They will join discussions on how to encourage young people to make the church their vocation, an official theme that could take a back seat to issues raised last March during a pre-synodal meeting of more than 300 youths in Rome along with 15,000 others online that were presented to church leaders.

"We want to say, especially to the hierarchy of the Church, that they should be a transparent, welcoming, honest, inviting, communicative, accessible, joyful and interactive community," a statement issued at the end of their meeting said.

"The Church should be sincere in admitting its past and present wrongs," they added.

- 'Bothersome or even irritating' -

Pope Francis acknowledged those concerns last week when he told young Christians in Estonia that many "are outraged by sexual and economic scandals that are not met with clear condemnation."

The pontiff conceded that many also find the Church's presence "bothersome or even irritating".

He has called a meeting next February of senior Church leaders from around the world to take up the question of child protection.

Scandals in Australia, Europe, and North and South America have involved widespread claims of abuse — and cover-ups — by clergymen and lay members with one Vatican archbishop describing it as the church's "own 9/11".

Germany's Catholic Church released last month a damning report showing that in Germany alone, almost 3,700 minors were assaulted between 1946 and 2014.

During their pre-synodal meeting, the Catholic youths also urged Church leaders to "speak in practical terms about controversial subjects such as homosexuality and gender issues," which they were "already freely discussing without taboo".

They noted in addition that young women regretted "a lack of leading female role models within the Church."

A handful of women were to take part in the synod of bishops as official observers.

CaptEquinox (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Cast away
#3415: Oct 22nd 2018 at 11:44:25 AM

"A handful of women..." yeah.

Why are we even discussing the reality of the church when half of the church is not even represented here?

- Leo Cardinal Suenens at Vatican II

I have found that it is the small everyday deed of ordinary folks that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. - Tolkien
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#3416: Oct 22nd 2018 at 3:53:54 PM

[up] I disagree there is momentum. The truth of men and women not being equal in the eyes of god for the Catholic Church has been evident for a long time. Since men have the judicial power, what women want doesn't matter as long as there isn't a change in the former group.

Edited by Grafite on Oct 22nd 2018 at 11:55:27 AM

Life is unfair...
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#3417: Jan 19th 2019 at 2:00:11 AM

Speaking of the female half of the Church...

Shame.

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#3418: Jan 19th 2019 at 9:04:38 AM

[up] Dear lord.

I get the distinct feeling that the Church will not be cleansed of its sins until half of its structure has been changed. There's just too much rot that has accumulated over nearly 2000 years of little to no accountability and an obsession with opacity and secrecy.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Jan 19th 2019 at 12:05:23 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#3419: Jan 19th 2019 at 9:56:15 AM

Video isn't available in Canada, care to give a summary?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#3420: Jan 19th 2019 at 10:03:32 AM

[up] Essentially, Nuns have also been abusing children, not just Priests.

And like with Priests, the Church has decided that they are sufficient legal arbiters to deal with the situation and don't think they need the courts.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#3421: Feb 25th 2019 at 5:10:26 PM

The Meeting on the Protection of Minors in the Church has concluded.

Unfortunately, Francis didn't actually hash out the kind of concrete battle plan for dealing with this shit that everyone wanted him to do; he did, however, make his position clear and urge bishops to start concerning themselves less with institutional reputation and more with protecting the victims of abuse.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#3422: Feb 25th 2019 at 5:29:28 PM

Its a nasty situation that is laced with secrecy. I don't think it's a top down secrecy, though.

That makes it worse because its throughout.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#3423: Apr 29th 2019 at 2:05:00 AM

Hi! Sorry about coming out of left field, but I didn't know which thread to ask. I need a book about the history of Rome, debunking the myths and the glorification, from a Christian perspective, or, at least, with a focus on the contrast between the values of Rome and those of Jesus and his followers.

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#3424: Apr 29th 2019 at 2:11:58 AM

"From a Christian perspective" — what does that even mean? <points at the denominational kaleidoscope of "Christian">

And, what do you mean by "Rome"? The Roman Republic? The Roman Empire? Pagan Rome? Christian Rome? Western Rome? Eastern Rome?

Also, I wish you all the luck in the world condensing all the Romes into a single book. And, that's if you ignore Eastern Rome/ Byzantium/ the history of Greek Orthodoxy.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Apr 29th 2019 at 10:14:39 AM

Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#3425: Apr 29th 2019 at 4:25:55 AM

I'm happy with a book that actually highlights this variety in values and perspectives. I don't need a Perfect Solution Fallacy comprehensive study of everything Roman and Christian ever. I need a book to help a Roman Catholic Church and Ancient Rome fan (think Ignatius Riley) that these institutions he loves so much were not monoliths worthy of unqualified and uncritical blanket support, even by their own standards, and that "they brought the light of civilization to the benighted barbarians, and salvation to the souls of the pagans" is a statement that needs a massive amount of nuance.

I also need it to be non confrontational enough that he will actually read it.

Edited by Oruka on Apr 29th 2019 at 4:28:11 AM


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