RWBY General Discussion

right, but the jabberwocky didn't actually exist in the plot or influence the characters. the jabberwock does, and it eats people.

and Alyx being actively malicious changes how dark the story is, and thus the long term effects of the story on the world itself.

and, of course, the curious cat.

all three of these things make the work darker and edgier than Wonderland was in the books or movie, which did not have a people-eating predator, an cruel conniving cat, or a malicious main character.

Like I said, the darkest elements were all things the human visitors to the Ever After brought with them.

Yeah there are elements of the story that are darker then the original but I do not think that alone makes it yet another 'edgy Alice' adaptation. When I think that, I do not just imagine specific elements that are a bit darker. I think of the overall setting or tone being more grim and horror-focused and whatnot.

"right, but the jabberwocky didn't actually exist in the plot or influence the characters. the jabberwock does, and it eats people."

Its not really a major threat in the show itself either. It is an enemy of the heroes in one episode and is no more a threat then the average grimm. Its main contribution to the plot was its powers being taken by Neo.

Edited by Snoketrope on May 24th 2023 at 9:13:01 AM

There is a difference between being darker than edgier. I know those 2 are often thrown together or overlap, but they're not the same. Darker means having more serious subject matter or such. Edgier is more of a tryhard version being darker, a "look at how dark and serious I am". While RWBY is darker than Alice in Wonderland, since that was a whimsical children's story and RWBY isn't, it doesn't come across as being darker for the sake of it, which is what edginess is

Oh, it's a Mark follow-up to his SLVR trailers from several years ago. I'm not going to watch the bit you've linked to in isolation, I'll watch the entire video later when I've got some time. I've always liked Mark's RWBY videos.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Grimm corruption has been advancing over the years; that's certainly how I've interpreted the Tainted Veins existing now but not originally.

But I also think that Salem's got a hubris problem. She's not really a fighter. She never has been. She relies very heavily on just letting regeneration bring her back from everything. She doesn't even bother dodging even when she can. From her perspective, what's the point?

However, we do know the regeneration is not linked to the Grimm corruption because both the immortality and dying over and over again came long before the corruption did. I think the Grimm corruption is advancing over time because of the nature of the Grimm corruption itself. While I think the immortality regeneration and the Grimm corruption may well feed on each other in the worst possible way, I don't think that's the intention. I think the forces of Creation and Destruction may be in something of a war within her, one constantly keeping her alive and the other constantly trying to destroy. I don't think she'll become "fully" Grimm, however, because she has two equal and opposite forces acting upon her existence. She's not in the same position as Cinder, who is very much being consumed by the Grimm she's fused with.

Like you, I do wonder if Salem could have normal seeming children any more.

Blake's voice actress believes Blake is bisexual and Yang's voice actress believes Yang is pansexual. That's Word of Saint Paul, however.

I think I understand what you're saying, and I think your partner is probably right in that observation. One of the things we know about the setting is that there is such a driving motif of being allowed to be yourself, and that's a consequence of a war eighty years ago where one of those things being fought over was individuality. Ever since, people have been actively encouraged to be their own individual self and express that self. From what little LGBTQ+ representation we've seen, there doesn't seem to be any in-universe stigma about it. The exception is the transphobia May experienced from her family during a conversation that was pretty much about her family being shitty on multiple levels. This is during a storyline that indicates Atlas has massive problems that may stem from the role they played in the Great War as the origin of the attempt to crush individuality and diversity eighty years ago. But even Atlas' problems are more about economic inequality (and loopholed slavery as a consequence of that) and Fantastic Racism against Faunus than real life LGBTQ+ issues (May's experiences with her transphobic family being the stand-out exception).

So, I don't think that LGBTQ+ struggle is built into the show's setting. It's not in the EU novels either. As a result, it's going to stand out as not being there. Now, I've seen some fans praise the show for making it a non-issue in-universe, and I've seen some fans wish that those real life issues had been brought in and explored. The lack of in-universe LGBTQ+ issues does seem to be a decision that CRWBY actively made. Some people like that, some people don't.

Regarding the delay, I think Volume 7 showed that Yang was waiting for Blake to come to terms with Adam and show signs of being ready to move on. Blake doesn't show any definite signs until Volume 9, which starts from the moment it's confirmed Yang is still alive and didn't die. Once she starts showing the signs, she actively takes the lead in flirting — which is the first time she's ever done that. After that, they end up together pretty quickly. So, the delay in their relationship happening has always been Blake, predominantly because of the Adam issue.

I put together a timeline of the show once, and I've added Volume 9 to it. It's based on the main plot and not sub-plots. From Volume 5, Chapter 1 to Volume 9, Chapter 10, only three months have passed. From Adam's death at the end of Volume 6 to Bumblebee getting together in Volume 9, Chapter 6 only 1 month, 8 days have passed. So, while it's a long time for us, it's not that long in-universe.

Alice does read it at the beginning of the second book and gets some advice from Humpty Dumpty on how to translate some of the words. However, the poem isn't detailed for the reader, who has to go to the separate Jabberwocky poem to read it in full.

I'd say there's more to it than that. Alice was an incredibly rude and judgemental little girl. I always thought that when I read it as a kid, thinking that she was getting away with saying things my parents would never let me get away with. I reread it just before Volume 9 began to refresh my memory (and because I'd never actually read it as an adult). It definitely didn't change my mind about feeling like Alice is a very rude and judgemental little girl. Yes, she's supposed to be kind, but she's really quite insensitive as well. Now, she's seven years old, with the black-and-white mentality that comes with being a young child, so it's not a criticism of her depiction. But, given that I often make similar complaints about Yang's portrayal in RWBY, it did leave me laughing to myself when I remembered that the creators of IQ decided to give Yang the Alice symbolism in the opening credits. A little more appropriate than I initially thought... although probably not for the same reasons they chose it.

Edited by Wyldchyld on May 24th 2023 at 7:37:19 PM

"Darker means having more serious subject matter or such. Edgier is more of a tryhard version being darker, a "look at how dark and serious I am"."

And even not that really, edgy before was "on the edge" of thing that push bondaries of what is allow and even make thing unconfortable while edgy was "I making this as hard as posible", as many internet terms it kinda degenerate into "darker things I dont like".

It is also relative, edgier than the original? sure, edgier than the rest of alice adaptation? meh

Depends on how you view it.

Like, do you see "in our version of Wonderland, being Driven to Suicide nets you a visit with Treesus Christ who either ascends you in traditional Rooster Teeth style or just tells you you're fine the way you are" as edgy and if so, edgier than Alice: Madness Returns and how it handles Alice's life after Wonderland or more lukewarm edgy?

Edited by Psyga315 on May 24th 2023 at 8:55:46 AM

Alice: Madness Returns and vol. 9 of RWBY both do go into some frankly uncomfortable territory. Though I'd say Alice: Madness Returns is darker in this regard since the rape overtones are much more pervasive due to Bumby's influence. The suicide overtones by contrast aren't as pervasive throughout vol. 9.

Edited by M84 on May 25th 2023 at 2:29:01 AM

treesus christ is pretty good imo

You know, we never saw Jaune's Semblance in the Ever After. Given that his hair streaks indicate he hasn't lost the experience even if he's been de-aged, I wonder if we'll see that his Semblance has evolved during the Vacuo Arc. I wonder how powerful it is now... assuming that his Aura wasn't rolled back along with his age, that is.

While RWBY has always had a mixed track record at handling darker subject matter, the only time I think can really be accused of being "try hard", is some of Adam's more over the top moments.

Tyrian's over the top in a good way (well, mostly); Adam's over-the-top in a bad way. In a Very. Bad. Way.

Cookie for the reference.

I think the issue with Adam is he could have been more interesting than what they went with even if he was still an evil asshole.

Adam was kind of doomed from the start, he was an expy of Virgil, made with only a superficial understanding of what made Virgil cool.

It's weird but for me Adam feels more like an expy and exploration of Vicious from Cowboy Bebop (admittedly, I don't remember a lot of details) : rivals of a main character with a proficiency for swords while working for a criminal organization and rising in its ranks. Adam in volume 6 is what happens when Vicious loses all standing in the organization right after surviving a particularly humiliating loss against the object of his obsessional hatred.

Uh Vicious works better because he like Julia isn't meant to a full character. In the sense that their not meant to fully realized three dimensional characters but more like shadows of the past that you cannot run. (Effecteivky a dark warning for spike that no matter how much he wants to avoid it. His past will catch up). It's why we don't learn much about them to give it mystery..

That does not work for Adam who absolutely should have more.

Edited by miraculous on May 27th 2023 at 9:45:30 AM

To this day I will never understand why people think Devil May Cry's Vergil is cool.

He is a two-dimensional edgelord character at best prior to DMC V, and people adored him prior to that entry. His entire motivation prior to DMC V was being a douche and wanting power.

Vergil is for some reason a more accepted version of what Cinder currently is - power obsessed Jerkass with cool swords.

Edited by FOFD on May 27th 2023 at 1:10:44 PM

Virgil works as a foil to Dante, dealing with the same issues in the opposite way. But also the story doesn't try to hide that much like Dante, Virgil is a dork who's playing acting at what he thinks is cool. It's just that he has a very different idea of cool to Dante's.

I feel like Adam should have been more like Homelander from the Boys. Awful, egomaniacal monster who is nonetheless emphasized to be an overgrown child and the product of a torturous early life.

Wasn't Homelander turned into a monster by essentially getting gaslit into believing he was one.

Or am I getting the show and the comic mixed up?

Comics Homelander, to my understanding, was always a monster, but was gaslit into believing he did things he didn’t because he already did so much monstrous shit that he couldn’t even remember it all, and it sounded like something he would have done

Yeah it varies per version. In the show he's basically a child who never grew up and has a warped sense of the world as a result. In the comic he's effectively been manipulated into being a monster.

Also Julius like every edgy chararter appear very little to mantain is appeal in the maximun sense so he show up like three episodes.

And with Adam....well he was my fav chararter and villian so I have talk a lot about what went wrong but the issue is they could go into more or less three direction:

-a ranging abuser who also is scary, drop the scar and make him someone superficially instered in the fight(bonus point if he didnt have it bad) but he is a good pursuer.

-drop the romance angle and make him a power hungry figure who belive themselves rightious in all moments.

-Or more high risk is make him more a killmonger, someone who really want best but belive wanton violence is the only path.

But they go with none of it and suffer as result.

I'd say that Marco Inaros from the Expanse is Adam done right. He's the ex lover of one of the main characters who she left when she learned his true monstrous nature (Marco tricked Naomi into helping him commit mass murder, and when she finally saw the truth she left his sorry ass), and despite putting on an air of being a freedom fighter is ultimately a selfish narcissist looking to advance his own ego rather than actually help his people.

People like that DO exist in revolutionary movements (Robert Mugabe is probably the biggest example. Ian Smith's regime was evil but Mugabe was a selfish monster who ran the country as his own fiefdom rather than actually trying to help the people, and in the end he wrecked the country). Other cases are those who might even have somewhat of a point of being victimized (snoketrope pointed out Riddler from The Batman as an example) but is using what happened as an excuse to be cruel rather than be better.

The thing is, with Marco, the bigotry aspects were MUCH better handled. We see truly horrific examples of how Belters are mistreated (unleashing the Protomolecule on Eros because they figured "eh, they're just Belters, who gives a fuck?") before Marco is introduced, and we see other leaders who, while ruthless, are genuinely trying to help their people.

Adam....didn't have that. The truly horrific stuff that the show hints at (The SDC's crimes) are only told rather than shown, and even then there's implications that it was a GOOD and honest company before Jacques corrupted it (Which allows people to argue it was the fault of Jacques, an individual, rather than a systemic problem). In short, the truly ugly depths with which racism can reach are only told rather than shown, and they're still largely portrayed as the fault of bad individuals up until the Atlas Arc.

In addition, Sienna Khan and other leaders were only introduced AFTER Adam and don't much. As such it feels more like they were reacting to criticism and covering their rears.

With those factors in place having the psychopath using a revolution for power just comes off as gross. The show's handling of racism in general was pretty bad up until about Arc 6ish (I honestly think that the election of Donald Trump and all the hatred that was expressed after he elected were a very brutal wakeup call to a lot of people.)

The SDC really feels like something they dropped the ball on, especially with how important Dust is to everything on Remnant.

Not only is it a megacorp with all the abuses inherent to that, but everything is reliant on its product to not be murdered by hordes of monsters. Hell, Mantle is explicitly reliant on mines the SDC discovered since their own ran out.