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Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

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fredhot16 from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Oct 21st 2019 at 8:14:36 AM

"In fairness, he's writing a out-of-continuity story with no validity in the main universe."

Ye-no, that means absolutely nothing. We're not criticizing how this affects the main universe, we're criticizing what's happening in this one.

Suspension of disbelief: I can believe in time travel but it still has to make sense.
Draghinazzo My love, has dressed me like a clown Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
My love, has dressed me like a clown
Oct 21st 2019 at 8:26:41 AM

I don't really think most male writers are aware of or care about Women In Refrigerators. Seeing as it keeps happening.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine. ...not really though.
Darthwyn Mother Goddess from The void Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Mother Goddess
Oct 21st 2019 at 8:33:59 AM

I get the feeling most writers probably don't think about the implications of killing the character off until the backlash occurs.

Plus death seems pretty cheap in Marvel and DC. Unless your Uncle Ben or Batman's parents.

akanesarumara Relationship Status: Abstaining
Oct 21st 2019 at 8:37:16 AM

[up] Which makes me wonder, when is the death a case of Stuffed in the Fridge and when is it "legitimate" (not narrowing down the character to the mere fact that they died)?

I'm asking because if you have a character dies, you obviously want other characters to react to it (unless you want to establish the other character/s completely lack emotion, negative or positive)...

CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Oct 21st 2019 at 10:15:12 AM

Gail Simone said that Women in Refrigerators did actually result in quite a lot of women who'd been maimed, depowered, killed, or forgotten coming back. She says that the difference is stark because, "Now people actually do question whether or not to have X character murdered horribly and how."

She also added that beforehand, rape was commonly considered as a plot element for female characters (though almost never used).

Apparently the culture was that toxic beforehand that they NEVER gave any thought to female characters and consequences.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 21st 2019 at 10:16:41 AM

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
AlleyOop Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Oct 21st 2019 at 10:17:00 AM

[up][up]If they have agency in their deaths, for example it involved something they chose to do (e.g. performing a Heroic Sacrifice, dying in battle, certain kinds of suicide), doing so in a way that makes sense for their character especially if it caps off a character development arc of some kind. It also preferably shouldn't be used with the primary goal of cheaply making a male character sad (so female Red Shirts dying is not necessarily this).

It's for this reason I don't consider Black Widow's death in Endgame an example of Stuffed in the Fridge, odious of a choice as it is. Nor do I consider Steve Rogers diving into the ice while Peggy is left to mourn as a brilliant Gender Flip subversion of the trope as some have proclaimed, because he had the kind of agency and purpose true examples lack.

Edited by AlleyOop on Oct 21st 2019 at 1:21:28 PM

unknowing from somewhere..
Oct 21st 2019 at 10:37:10 AM

Also, killing chararter to other feel bad abput it s a very old trope and dont think it wont be gone in a very long time(like never actually).

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
smokeycut Not Your Atom Bomb Baby from Rochester NY Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Not Your Atom Bomb Baby
Oct 21st 2019 at 11:20:39 AM

I honestly think that, aside from Gail Simone’s website, the best analysis of women in refrigerators is actually Spider-Gwen by Latour and Rodriguez. The whole series picks apart Gwen Stacy’s death by showing a world where Peter died instead, and actually has her meet the version of herself who will be thrown off of a bridge and killed.

By the end of the series a version of Gwen Stacy has committed herself to traveling to other universes and saving her own life, so that she can get a chance to live and be her own person, not defined by her death. The Gwens even meet for brunch sometimes.

Everyone's favorite person
fredhot16 from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Oct 21st 2019 at 11:26:33 AM

[up][up]May sound rude but you know what we're talking about, right? We're not talking about just "characters". This trend tends to crop up when it comes to female characters.

Edited by fredhot16 on Oct 21st 2019 at 11:32:54 AM

Suspension of disbelief: I can believe in time travel but it still has to make sense.
TobiasDrake Exposition Dragon from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Exposition Dragon
Oct 21st 2019 at 11:37:09 AM

I think there was a creator that actually used that excuse recently but I can't remember who it was.

The last person I remember using it was Ryan Reynolds, apologizing for fridging Deadpool's girlfriend Vanessa - a fan-favorite female character killed off to make Wade feel some feels for five minutes in one of the most flagrant and textbook fridgings of the decade - in Deadpool 2.

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold unfeeling logic that which can be equally explained by emotional outburst.
Oct 21st 2019 at 12:13:55 PM

Ah, that's who it was. Thanks.

fredhot16 from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Oct 21st 2019 at 12:32:09 PM

[up][up]I didn't watch it, how blatant was it?

Suspension of disbelief: I can believe in time travel but it still has to make sense.
unknowing from somewhere..
Oct 21st 2019 at 12:36:14 PM

[up]Pretty much starting the damn movie, we see Wade being sad, we see a flashback to what happen were Wade is fighting some guys and one bullet hit and killing her....cut to the opeing of the movie.

Edited by unknowing on Oct 21st 2019 at 3:40:27 PM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
fredhot16 from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Oct 21st 2019 at 12:37:53 PM

[up]Is this true, anybody else who saw this?

Suspension of disbelief: I can believe in time travel but it still has to make sense.
unknowing from somewhere..
Oct 21st 2019 at 12:42:30 PM

[up]Now that is rude but yes, more or less that happen, in fact the title of the opening saw something like "wait, you did it?" lampshading the whole thing.

And to be fair(a little bit of fair, no much), her death is pretty much wade main motivation in doing stuff for the whole movie as he try to help a kid call russell who have powers.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
fredhot16 from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Oct 21st 2019 at 12:43:41 PM

[up]Yeah, that little "to be fair" is the problem we're talking about here. You are saying her death is the reason that he starts doing stuff, right? To be sure?

Edited by fredhot16 on Oct 21st 2019 at 12:48:25 PM

Suspension of disbelief: I can believe in time travel but it still has to make sense.
unknowing from somewhere..
Oct 21st 2019 at 12:58:13 PM

Oh that was to tobias saying it make him feel fore five minutes, he dosent forget about it which is pretty little consolation step all things considered.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AlleyOop Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Oct 21st 2019 at 1:05:38 PM

It's the catalyst for the events of the movie. He attempts to commit suicide and then she pushes him telling him he still has important things to do with his life, which kicks off the plot to help Russell, and then he meets Cable whose time travel allows him to thankfully go back and undo her death. Five minutes is exaggerating because if anything it goes in the opposite direction of periodically cutting into the middle of the madcap hijinks to milk her tragic death as a plot device for Wade's Mangst and character development.

Edited by AlleyOop on Oct 21st 2019 at 4:08:19 AM

TobiasDrake Exposition Dragon from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Exposition Dragon
Oct 21st 2019 at 1:26:16 PM

There's a few scenes where Vanessa shows up in Wade's mind-space or whatever in a role that's kinda/sorta like Death's role from the comics if you turn your head and squint a bit.

But that's about it. Once Wade meets Russell and Cable, Vanessa's death ceases to have any impact on the plot whatsoever - save for a brick joke at the end, where he uses Cable's time machine to undo it.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 21st 2019 at 2:26:36 AM

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold unfeeling logic that which can be equally explained by emotional outburst.
Oct 21st 2019 at 9:22:00 PM

To return to the world of Spider-Man for a bit.

Back in the late 80s and early 90s, Mary-Jane had to deal with a rich man named Jonathan Caesar who was stalking her and was not used to being told "no". While he was eventually arrested, he had just enough pull from behind bars to mess with MJ's life by having her and Peter evicted from their building and torpedoing her fashion career. When he got out of prison he tried to kill MJ only to be killed by Hal Goldman, another stalker who was obsessed with her.

There were certain fans who decried this story as being "melodramatic" and that it was "trying to make us feel sorry for a hot super model". I wonder how they feel now in light of everything the Me Too movement has revealed.

TobiasDrake Exposition Dragon from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Exposition Dragon
Oct 21st 2019 at 10:27:45 PM

Probably about the same. The kind of person who would whine about "trying to make us sympathize with a hot supermodel" is the same kind of person that would whine about "False rape accusations ruin innocent men's lives!"

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold unfeeling logic that which can be equally explained by emotional outburst.
M84 Such heroic nonsense from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Such heroic nonsense
Oct 21st 2019 at 10:28:36 PM

So basically the people who would become incels or incel sympathizers. The people who hate attractive women for not putting out for them.

Edited by M84 on Oct 22nd 2019 at 1:29:28 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Oct 21st 2019 at 10:42:09 PM

Interestingly, in the 2nd Season of GLOW, the main character ends up in a room with her boss and is clearly expected to sleep with him before she rushes out after she realizes what has been done. When she goes to her female co-worker (after the show is moved to a dead time slot because of it), said female co-worker goes ballistic at her—for ruining their chances. GLOW being set in the 80s, she basically says that she should have used a bunch of excuses to not "emasculate" him or flat out have slept with him because that is how things got done.

It was a pretty powerful moment, albeit made people hate Deborah who had normalized the behavior in her career as a soap opera star (and been implied to have been in the same position many times).

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
fredhot16 from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:00:23 AM

"trying to make us feel sorry for a hot super model"

What? Why is this a complaint?

Suspension of disbelief: I can believe in time travel but it still has to make sense.
KazuyaProta Porky from A Industrial Farm Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Porky
Oct 22nd 2019 at 6:03:53 AM

Some people feels that once you reach certain status, then it means that you can't be harmed and all harm to you is minor.

Add sexism and it becomes even worse.

Watch me destroying my country

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