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Shingeki no Kyojin/Attack on Titan (Manga Discussion)

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Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#14126: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:01:56 PM

Good, no need to get conspiranoic bullshit posted all over.

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#14127: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:02:40 PM

I was thinking the old theory that Hitler was ethnically Jewish and hated his own people myself concerning the Tyburs.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:04:00 PM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: Jun, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#14128: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:03:13 PM

It's why this series was catching some heat for a long time; the allusions to Nazi Germany and Jews is obvious, but it can also apply to any oppressed minority group under an oppressive regime.

That's why its uncomfortable for some people, because of how raw it is, but it works to the strength of the story imo.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Wispy Since: Feb, 2017
#14129: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:03:31 PM

[up][up][up]Sure whatever you say buddy

[up]This, I can see why some people swear off the story due to the real world allusions. I have just been invested it in so long that I don't feel like I can drop it.

Edited by Wispy on Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:04:32 PM

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#14130: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:04:54 PM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#14131: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:05:09 PM

There's a pretty good article on Ao T and the alt-right and how the messaging has been easily appropriated by Neo Nazis:

https://newrepublic.com/article/160193/attack-titan-alt-rights-favorite-manga

When asked about what influenced Attack on Titan, Isayama references everything from video games to his frustrations with himself. However, he never mentions politics. He traces the origin of his idea of human-eating creatures to his childhood on a farm, where he was fascinated by the cruelty of animals eating other animals. He compares the walls to the mountains ringing his hometown, Oyama, which he associates with his childhood preoccupation with the idea of escape. He believes his concept of an unequal, walled society, with monsters outside the walls, is “universal.”

He also dislikes didactic storytelling, instead preferring stories that do not provide straightforward answers to complex moral questions. He has stated that he admired the movie In This Corner of the World because it did not answer explicitly whether war is good or bad. “Ultimately, I don’t think [Attack on Titan] passes judgment on what is ‘right’ or ‘wrong,’” he added.

Isayama’s intent, however, does not remove the politics from Attack on Titan. Whether by cultural osmosis or coincidence, Isayama littered his series with allusions to racial, ethnic, and historical tropes. As a result, the “true” political message of the series has been the subject of furious debate online. Isayama’s silence just makes it easier for audiences to transpose their own ideologies onto the world has created.

Most people consider Attack on Titan a work that straightforwardly condemns the effects of fascism and racism in society. In the internment camps, the broadly sympathetic Eldians are marked with starred armbands—an apparent reference to the yellow badges the Nazis forced Jews to wear. The inequality and propaganda espoused by the fascist military regime are major obstacles that the protagonists must overcome. Isayama turns the topic’s inherent potential for jingoism on its head: Though nearly the entire cast is composed of soldiers, many are cowardly and selfish. Soldiers’ deaths are meaningless far more often than they are glorious.

Meanwhile, Isayama’s erstwhile protagonist is a genocidal maniac radicalized by trauma, and all of his former friends are cooperating to thwart him. Hidden in Attack on Titan’s blood and gore is a deft exploration of the legacies of violence.

Not everyone sees Attack on Titan that way, however. On 4chan, a website now nearly synonymous with the alt-right, the rabid message board /pol/ has archived 57 distinct threads with Attack on Titan in the subject line since 2016 alone. And this is hardly an exhaustive list of racist threads citing or discussing the show. In 2014, a user with a Nazi flag described the series as “one of the most redpilled shows I have seen in a long time,” while people down the list said it was an endorsement of “the revival of National Socialism.” A more recent post from 2019, titled “Redpilling Propaganda in the Form of Movies, TV Programs,” used season three of Attack on Titan as its case study.

For white nationalist denizens of /pol/, Attack on Titan is a brilliant way of normalizing white supremacist ideology for a mainstream audience. In their eyes, the Eldians are a stand-in for white people in Western countries, punished for the crimes of their ancestors’ empires and besieged by subhuman monsters trying to enter their land. The Eldians, brainwashed by a state leader who renounced violence against non-Eldians, represent the white population indoctrinated by liberals to feel empathy for nonwhites. Marley, in this fevered telling, represents the Jews, convincing white people to hate themselves.

These interpretations are strong enough to withstand the actual themes of the show. Isayama takes pains to show that the Eldians are a deeply flawed people in their own right, but his alt-right fans still view the Eldians as members of a master race. Under this reading, the main characters’ heroism provides an example of white vitality and intelligence. The alt-right makes memes about Eren attacking Israel and joining Hitler, all while praising Isayama for including a protagonist who plans to ethnically cleanse the planet.

Here, Isayama’s convoluted racial coding comes to the foreground, because Isayama does construct many symbolic parallels between the Eldians and an ideal Nazi state. Eldian society is ethnically homogeneous, with the exception of a single Asian woman, and all the named Eldians have European names. (It is not clear if they are intended to be white. The pale mukokuseki or “stateless” default character design template used in most Japanese anime is often interpreted as Japanese in Japan and white in the U.S.) The coup against the state could be read as an anticolonial revolution, but the alt-right interprets it as a nationalist putsch against a pacifist state. The opening theme music of the show is even sung in German.

There are also parallels to Imperial Japan. Isayama explicitly based one heroic general on Imperial Japanese Army General Akiyama Yoshifuru, while fans on both the left and the right see close parallels between another character and Nazi General Erwin Rommel. Another character, Mikasa, shares her name with an Imperial Japanese battleship. Given these aesthetic decisions, perhaps it is unsurprising that one poster opened their thread, “When did you realize this was fascist propaganda and that it’s commentary on how the good guys lost WW 2?”

There’s fodder for many other, sometimes contradictory, racist interpretations of the show. The Marleyan state is controlled secretly by an Eldian family, reminiscent of right-wing conspiracy theories around Jewish cabals and financiers. On the chan boards, alt-right Attack on Titan fans who detest the Eldians tend to think of the walled city as Israel and consider their expulsion and ghettoization well-deserved punishments.

A contingent of liberal commentators also identified the series as careless at best, and intentional at worst, in its invocation of antisemitic tropes. As one user tweeted, “This boneheaded metaphor has the people analogous to holocaust victims literally turning into giant horrid man-eating monsters.” As another observed, “Attack on Titan’s whole ‘Jews used to rule and brutally oppress the world and fled after losing a war and are the only people who can turn into Titans and literally eat people’ thing is, y’know, pretty gross and maybe a reason not to buy/read/watch it, just FYI.”

Isayama has been the subject of vociferous criticism for alleged right-wing views, usually based on circumstantial evidence. A cohort of Attack on Titan readers became outraged after other fans drew several connections suggesting that Isayama operated a private Twitter account that once minimized war atrocities committed by Japan during its occupation of Korea. Isayama also received death threats in 2013, in response to a blog post he released stating that he based a character on a Japanese Imperial military leader.

The range of audience responses serves as a reminder of people’s tendencies to sift through stories to find the messages they expect. Liberals are not immune: As a left-leaning fan of the manga and show, I read it as a metaphor for anticolonial revolutions and the struggle of building postcolonial states after years of exploitation. White nationalists, bereft of a conflict beyond grinding away the rights minority groups possess, must look to fiction—Q Anon conspiracy theories, Attack on Titan, myths of white genocide—to invent a struggle in which they can participate.

Isayama may be unaware of the far-right segment of his fan base in the U.S. He does not tailor the manga to Western audiences and has stated in many interviews that he remains surprised Attack on Titan became an international sensation. He even expressed mild shock in an interview when he heard that some people interpreted his story as an endorsement of Japanese militarism, which he has explicitly repudiated.

He might be disturbed to hear that virulent racists believe his work secretly spreads a message of white supremacy. Or he might not. When asked how people should view his work, Isayama responded, “Being a writer, I believe it is impolite to instruct your readers the way of how to read your story.”

.......

Willy's plan to spur the international community to war against Paradis wasn't spurred by anything Eren or anyone in Paradis did during or after the timeskip. In other words, it was gonna happen whether or not he attacked Liberio. "Just letting things be" would have meant sitting back and watching as the world attacked Paradis with the intent of exterminating everyone living there.

Every alternative, every platitude, every half-assed plan that's put forth in the story does not address that. That's what hinges behind Eren's rage at Hange — everyone condemning him are as stumped for options as he is. Azumabito refused to help them build international relations with the rest of the world in order to monopolize Paradis' resources. The bleeding-heart pacifists (who're ridiculed by the international community) outside of Paradis are the ones who merely want the extermination of all Paradisians rather than all Eldians. Going "well maybe someone will think of a better idea" is what they did for four years and all it did was enable the escalation of hostilities. Honestly, the reason the story works is because it's entirely defensible that there was no alternative for Paradis' long-term survival outside of the Rumbling, and not that Eren was just insecure and wanted immediate solutions.

I think that's falling for Eren's own personal narrative that there was no other way. Which is kind of an issue that I have with the story since it's trying to play gray with concepts that aren't really gray.

Edited by MadSkillz on Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:07:20 PM

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: Jun, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#14132: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:05:12 PM

You know, all things considered given the subject matter, we're being surprisingly civil about this line of discussion.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Wispy Since: Feb, 2017
#14133: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:05:23 PM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: Jun, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#14134: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:07:43 PM

Well...we were having a civil discussion.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#14135: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:07:55 PM

To clarify, I still really like the writing and story of all of this. I just think there are potential implications that need to be acknowledged and that goes beyond whether or not the story is actually good.

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#14136: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:09:24 PM

[up][up] Frankly, in the interest of keeping it that way I think I'll bow out of this line of discussion. I strongly disagree with the notion that the story needs to justify its framing of the racial/cultural conflict or that Isayama is a closet fascist or that the narrative needs to be "taken to task" for presenting the annihilation of either nation as the only conclusion at this point in time. But I don't think I'll change anyone's mind, or vice versa.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Wispy Since: Feb, 2017
#14137: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:09:29 PM

[up][up]And I personally think thats a fair opinion to take. I know some people are turned off Attack On Titan entirely because of a lot of the Unfortunate Implications.

Edited by Wispy on Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:09:53 PM

SilentColossus Since: Feb, 2010
#14138: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:09:29 PM

Also, appropriating Holocaust imagery. The Eldians being compared to Jewish people at all is a major black mark on the story, IMO.

The Eldians formed an evil empire that brought death and destruction for 2,000 years.

The implication is that antisemitism is the result of thousands of years of Jewish people oppressing people. That they are involved in a "cycle of hatred", rather than having been oppressed for thousands of years by various empires and regimes, or scapegoated so people blamed them instead of the actual leaders who caused the problem.

Also, didn't the Founding Titan make the Eldians immune to a damn plague? Consider that they're compared to Jews, who were sometimes blamed for the Black Death.

I do not think Isayama is a secret fascist or a huge antisemite, but I'm not Jewish, so I can't really make a judgement call on the latter. But there are some very troubling implications.

Edited by SilentColossus on Feb 23rd 2021 at 3:12:49 PM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: Jun, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#14139: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:12:00 PM

I think everyone is fully aware of the implications, especially given how overt they are. I don't think just because the narrative justifies Eren's stance a bit doesn't mean that you suddenly supporting the genocide of all fascist governments.

But uh...as a minority myself, one of the most oppressed minorities at that, I can't exactly fully condemn Eren's actions even if I morally disagree with them. If someone wants to call that a mistake on Isayama's part, then fine, but I think its a valid narrative decision in spite of the implications.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Wispy Since: Feb, 2017
#14140: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:15:55 PM

I personally just try to enjoy it as a fantastical war story that has a lot of interesting history in the background. One of the things I always wanted to see was what exactly the Eldian Empire was like at its height. Was it as bad as Marley says they were? Where they worse? Or were they something in the middle.

We did see Ymir in her time and that was fun albeit the first Fritz is one of the biggest monsters in the whole story which says something.

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#14141: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:19:57 PM

[up][up][up] We kinda know that's exaggerated to some degree at least by Marley though since according to their propaganda there was still an independent Marley 800 years after Ymir first was used to wage war against them and Kiyomi mentioned aristocrats who supported Eldia being forced into exile once Eldia fell apart.

How much of how they're hated is because of what they actually did versus Marley using them as slave soldiers to spread their empire for a hundred years?

Edited by doineedaname on Feb 23rd 2021 at 3:23:19 PM

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#14142: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:20:24 PM

[up][up][up][up] Would you be okay with Germans being treated like the nazis treated the Jewish, the Gipsy, LGBT people, handicapped people (both physically and mentally), tho? Because I wouldn't.

And I get quite angry at how rightwards Israel has been acting, or how the Palestinians get treated, mostly BECAUSE of the Holocaust; being treated as subhuman ought to be the best argument to NOT treat anybody as subhuman.

Edited by Eriorguez on Feb 23rd 2021 at 9:20:46 PM

Wispy Since: Feb, 2017
#14143: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:24:52 PM

[up]Presuming you are talking to me, I wasn't calling all Germans a fascist though? I said Isayama really comes across as a closest fascist with the framing of the story in relation to real world politics. I am not sure if he is entirely but he certainly comes across that way with some of the way he portrayed the Eldians. I also never said fascists should be treated as subhuman.

I don't think anyone here is saying that really.

Edited by Wispy on Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:27:51 PM

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#14144: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:28:18 PM

I know, I was replying to Silent Colossus. And I wasn't implying that all Germans were Nazi either.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#14145: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:30:21 PM

But uh...as a minority myself, one of the most oppressed minorities at that, I can't exactly fully condemn Eren's actions even if I morally disagree with them. If someone wants to call that a mistake on Isayama's part, then fine, but I think its a valid narrative decision in spite of the implications.

I can.

For example, Eldians are treated in Hizuru way better than they are anywhere else and are Paradis’ allies but Eren has decided to fully eradicate them too. He could’ve chosen to ignore them though.

What do you think Eren’s reasoning is there?

Eren’s making an argument for a homogeneous population through his actions. There’s no room for diversity in Eren’s new world.

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."
Wispy Since: Feb, 2017
#14146: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:35:45 PM

[up]Hizuru wasn't really treating them better than anywhere else. Sure they appeared sympathetic but Hizuru came across as more interesting in Paradis's plentiful resources then actually helping them really find a place in the world.

Which is saddening as I would of liked the story more if it was a case of a bunch of nations siding with Paradis instead of Marley and it turned into a World War drama only with Titans.

Edited by Wispy on Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:36:42 PM

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#14147: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:35:57 PM

Eren has always been about Black-and-White Morality, which may be respectable if you are against an enemy that may as well be a force of nature, but, he is not a good politician.

Funnily enough, he did become a force of nature that required everybody to leave aside differences to stop, but, as the story kept reminding us, even within the walls, where for all intents and purposes it was a clear cut "us vs the world", there was rampant inequality.

Extreme circumstances and a common foe may make allies, but, it isn't quite a perfect equalizer. But, Eren cannot work with that.

He remains an impulsive hot-headed kid. Even if trapped in determinism by himself.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: Jun, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#14148: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:38:52 PM

Yea, I was about to say, the Hizuru don't actually care about Paradis, only their resources and were only willing to help so as long as it benefitted them in some way.

Like Eren said, it's no better than being treated as live cattle.

There's literally no scenario where Paradis comes out on top here if Eren is stopped, and the Alliance itself points that out, so I don't get why we're trying to frame this differently.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#14149: Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:41:19 PM

@Wispy and Yakuza I’m talking about how Hizuru treats the Eldians in their land not how they treat Paradis. Although Hizuru doesn’t actually care to make war on Paradis so they’d at worst be neutral against them.

Regardless, they are official allies and don’t hold the same beliefs like the rest of the world or at least nearly to that extent.

We don’t see the people of Hizuru spit on people for being Eldians for example. Likely because Hizuru was allied to the Eldian Empire rather than being subjects of the Eldian Empire so they were never oppressed by Eldians.

Edited by MadSkillz on Feb 23rd 2021 at 12:42:04 PM

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."
Wispy Since: Feb, 2017

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