Shingeki no Kyojin/Attack on Titan (Manga Discussion)

Remember that Willy is part of a family that actually rules Marley from the shadows, yet he decides "yeah, we totally deserve subjugation" and that Eldians must be exterminated to the point he actively positions Eldians to be killed in Eren's attack. Willy was quite clear he wants to see Eldians go extinct.

Yeah cause he is a bad person and a villain.

Also you are forgetting he was not the leader of the Marely Eldians. He was pretty much separate from them. Being a well liked and powerful leader of one of the worlds strongest countries. Along with being it's shadow ruler. He was barely associated with the normal Eldians cause of how much higher his station was.

You seem to be easily offended by stuff. Not of this was offensive to real world things. Cause none of your comment just now is a bad thing in a story.

Edited by Envyus on Sep 15th 2018 at 6:37:17 AM

Did Tybur even consider himself Eldian? I always took him and his family as not caring about other Eldians since they had their positions secure. So I don't see him as being "yeah, we totally deserve subjugation", more "yeah, I support the status quo that keeps me powerful." Which from a story perspective I see no problem with especially coming from a villain.

Well not quite given that he planned on dying.

And you seem to be easily offended whenever something you like gets even lightly criticized. The story barely seems to take sides against Tybur and then has Eren bulldoze Marley to prove him right. He gets scenes that portray him in a sympathetic light, he gets praised by those around him, nothing has chipped away at the idealism or sympathy he's presented with.

Tybur was so dedicated to having Eldians genocided he planned to die to achieve it, so that "I support the status quo that keeps me powerful" doesn't work.

Basically, we have an analogue of Nazi Germany...and among the analogue of the Jews that the Eldians are, a family of Eldians is presented as Nazi Germany's secret shadow rulers willingly facilitating the subjugation of their own people to benefit and profit, with one of them deciding to go on and facilitate their extermination. Nothing sketchy there, no sir. Coupled with, again, how badly written and nonsensical the whole Tybur thing actually is.

Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 16th 2018 at 11:04:50 AM

Just cause you don't like it does not mean it's badly written. He was not proven right by Eren doing what he did. (Other then him correctly stating that Eren was a threat.)

Yes he does get praised by those around him, who are also bad people for the most part.

Nothing there is sketchy or badly written. You just did not like it, cause you are too sensitive.

Because seriously that has been pretty much your complaint for most of these. "Bad things are happening. And people are doing bad things And I don't like it when bad things happen."

Edited by Envyus on Sep 16th 2018 at 12:13:46 PM

While I don't generally agree with Lightysnake's view of the situation, I do think they're right about you not really debating this in particularly fair manner, Envyus.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 16th 2018 at 1:18:39 PM

Just because you like it doesn't mean it's well written, either. If you don't think the story was giving credence to the whole "what have we done to them now" thing by what Eren did, I think we were reading two different series. Tybur is seen as absurdly positive, given moments of sympathy by the series, and his view is never expressed to be an invalid one. Nevermind the complete lack of sense anything about Willy or the Tyburs makes.

Basically, you come off as easily impressed and overly sensitive to critique of series you enjoy.

And yeah,a plot that takes the equivalent of "a family of Jews secretly rule Nazi Germany and want to see their own subjugated and exterminated"...nothing sketchy 'bout that, no siree. I'm sure we'd say the same about a series that has direct analogues to the American civil war where the Eldians are a group of dark-skinned people secretly ruling the Confederacy.

Your typical response to any criticism of anything you enjoy, Envyus, is to just lash out that someone is wrong or easily offended. It's not honest engagement here, and I'll start hollering if you don't knock it off, because it's gotten overly tiresome

Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 16th 2018 at 11:19:01 AM

Just saying the rules have one against extreme constant negativity.

So Snake your posts are liable to get hollered too.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 16th 2018 at 12:07:05 PM

I'll gladly talk about something else.

But stop insulting me all the time because I criticize elements of the manga I dislike or not.

~Lightysnake

Speaking only for myself, I think it's less that you "criticize elements of the manga" and more that you "criticize the manga". At least that's how it seems to come off to most, including myself.

I try not to be the kind of guy who says "Don't like, then don't watch", but the general feel of your posts has left me more than once thinking "Then why are you even here?"

For pretty much that reason, and, again, I'm speaking only for myself, I generally ignore your posts here because I feel going in that it's only going to consist of "THIS BAD!!!!!" so I feel no obligation to give anything you say any real weight.

I apologize if there's rude or too personal as to merit a thump, but that's my sincere opinion.

Edited by sgamer82 on Sep 16th 2018 at 1:41:05 PM

Lighty isn't wrong that the Tybur family story wise has some Unfortunate Implications attached to them considering the Eldians are Jews and Marley are nazis thing.

I've been vocal there were lots of things I liked in the manga before the Marley twists. And honestly? I liked the twist when it first happened, until I found the execution to be atrocious and honestly offensive.

You don't have to give it any weight. I don't really mind altogether much on that. People are welcome to like or not like what they do or not. But I read about a hundred chapters of the manga before I found it went to pot, I once enjoyed it, and I do feel that I have an investment enough to see it through to the end. You've seen people on this forum complaining about series that they've apparently followed for hundreds of chapters, it's not an unusual attitude.

But as I pointed out on the Tyburs? If someone wrote a slavery analogue with a group of dark-skinned people held as slaves by a clear stand in for the Confederacy, and then proceeded to reveal that a family of said slaves were the secret rulers of the Confederacy, I don't think there'd be any question it was offensive, any less than writing a Jewish family secretly ruling Nazi germany with full complicity in their atrocities.

Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 16th 2018 at 12:44:02 PM

I am still not entirely convinced that Jewish people are a particularly notable influence for the Eldians.

Which is why I am wondering if Japanese readers see the same historic influences. If so, I could be willing to agree with some of Lightysnake's criticisms. If not, I think we may be drawing parallels from a western perspective.

Edited by SilentColossus on Sep 16th 2018 at 2:30:33 AM

That's not an unfair statement. But with Marley? The Nazi imagery just seems...overwhelming. A hyper militaristic nation that is built upon blood purity, that oppresses a notable ethnic minority, shoves them into ghettos and makes them wear notable identifying marks, while potentially plotting their extermination.

The whole Nazi aesthetic is hardly unknown in Japan, and Isayama does, from what I recall, enjoy history. I don't think it likely that it wasn't inspired by such there.

Like I cannot possibly think this is coincidence.◊ The style of dress is similar, they're forced in ghettos and they're wearing white armbands with an identifying mark on it that isn't that far off from a star of David.

The fact that a lot of the characters' names are noticeably Germanic is a bit of icing on that cake, too.

Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 16th 2018 at 2:36:01 AM

Fullmetal Alchemist does the same, perhaps even to a greater extent, but unless I'm mistaken the genocide of the Ishvalans is based on Japan's conquest and genocide of the Ainu.

The most German thing about Marley is their names - a trait also shared among the Eldians. I don't think Jewish people under Nazi Germany it is entirely a coincidence, but I think the aesthetic is the biggest influence. Which might be worse?

Edited by SilentColossus on Sep 16th 2018 at 2:41:12 AM

FMA does have some inspirations there, but it seems largely aesthetic as opposed to a direct analogue. I don't think the Ishval situation is directly comparable to the Eldian one either.

We see how we have Eldians literally dressing like Jewish ghetto citizens, down to the hats and armbands, coupled with Marley's Putting on the Reich aesthetic.

Also, a lot of Jews had Germanic names, too. A lot of Jews still have Germanic surnames (All the 'bergs' or 'blatt' surnames are German inspired)....there's an entire language of Hebrew mixing with Germanic dialects.

It stops being aesthetic when you get into direct parallel like that. Aesthetic is Bleach's Vandenreich wearing Nazi-esque uniforms. Analogy is when you have a militaristic empire ghettoizing and plotting genocide on an ethnic minority wearing identifying armbands.

That's fair.

(I brought up the name thing because it wouldn't surprise me if Isayama wrote this backwards; the people behind the walls with "cool" German names were imagined first, and then he came up where the Titans came from, foreign nations, ect. - even if he came up with everything before it was published).

Edited by SilentColossus on Sep 16th 2018 at 2:51:53 AM

Truthfully? I have no idea. I expect only he could answer if he planned all of it in advance. One thing I will say though is Isayama did an excellent job in forshadowing a lot of reveals (the identities of the Titans), so I expect he at least had a conception of what was in the basement and about Marley and Eldia more or less from the early stages.

I would also note the Ishval situation is a bit different as well. The war is sparked by the shooting of an ishvalan child, and the conspiracy is explicitly led by the higher ups in Amnestris who serve an immortal homunculus with the promise if immortality. The horrific effects on the soldiers forced to carry out the genocide, who retain severe PTSD about it, and whose guilt is never whitewashed away, with FMA never removing the fact the Ishvalans are the victims of a completely unjustified plot against them that has destroyed them, with a complex and sympathetic villain like Scar.

Noticeably, there is not a conspiracy of Ishvalans out to genocide their own people. And while the Amnestrian high command is in on it, their motives aren't "Our people deserve it because we are tainted", it's simply greed, power and hunger for immortality driving themon...meanwhile the Tyburs are the ones running the show, with no real exploration beyond Willy himself who takes the stance of "Eldians are pure evil for vaguely defined sins of our ancestors, let me get us all exterminated."

Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 16th 2018 at 2:54:43 AM

The Tyburs are Erev Rav, not in the sense of being mixed-blood, but in the sense of being blood traitors. Jewish tradition holds that the Erev Rav, who fled Egypt with Israel, were always instigating rebellion among the Israelites, which time and again provoked God's wrath against Israel, not only during the generation of the Exodus, but afterward as well.

So... favorite one of the Nine Titans?

Not gonna lie. The Warhammer Titan was worth the wait. The Beast Titan is pretty great, too.

I've never quite gotten just why the Female titan is the 'Female' titan though. Its abilities are hardening and attracting other titans. Just seems a counterpart of the Attack Titan there.

Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 16th 2018 at 10:26:58 AM

It's called the Female Titan cause it has a female form.

From what I remember the Female Titan was supposed to be an all-arounder and Master of None type deal. It's probably female just because the original Ymir was female, so you have to have a gender-specific one, I guess?