KOTOR (series)

I dunno, I feel like Rey's Order will be spared that stick from Disney.

Did anyone else think that trying to make 'when evil things happen you shouldn't do anything" sound like it's smart, utterly ridiculous?

Kreia's whole thing seems to be "your automatically part of the problem because you involve yourself" when in reality you might just be the solution? For someone praised for being nuanced, a lot of her arguments sure lack it. In a way she's an example of The Cobbler's Children Have No Shoes, willing to tear down others brutally, but won't recognize her own, more legitimate, self-destructive behaviour.

Edited by Avenger09 on Jun 12th 2023 at 2:11:32 PM

Kreia is one of those characters that is misunderstood and given a lot more credit than she actually deserves.

It doesn't help that a lot of her fans are ones who also believe that picking a side and actually caring about improving things is dumb. A sentiment that was insufferably popular in the 10s and widely seen in things like South Park.

Even Kreia knows she's just a mess of a person and hopes the Exile can take her teachings and improve on it. That's something her "fans" never like to acknowledge and take her rant about helping poor people as big brain philosophy.

She does have some good stuff in her dialogue, it's just surrounded by childishly cynical deconstructions of the setting.

So she's a Chris Avellone character.

My interpretation of Kreia is that she's essentially applying the Problem of Evil to Star Wars. As a Jedi, she grew up learning the the Force is benevolent and necessary for all living things, but then saw multiple back-to-back wars between various factions of its devotees rip the Galaxy apart and kill trillions of innocents. So she analyzed the situation, and the conclusion she came to is that the Force is not benevolent.

Yeah Kreia DOES make a decent amount of fair points I can agree with, but she's ultimately wrong.

It's also really telling that Kreia is the final boss no matter what.

The simple truth is divisive characters are going to have fans and anti-fans who will think they have the best take on said characters. More often than not, what ends up happening is people just stick to what they already think and regurgitate the same points that cause the divide over and over again.

Kreia's complaints are those of a Christian to an omnipotent loving God.

They make no sense with an Eastern Pantheist interpretation of the Force or even Sentient Cosmic Force.

Where the answer to. "How does the Force allow evil to exist?"

Is, "Because evil is a part of the Force because people are a part of the Force."

Which is to say, "Chris Avellone needs that TFA Han Solo meme."

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 11th 2023 at 8:08:22 AM

And that is why the Sith can never be defeated, if evil is a part of the Force. Inevitably people with a lust for power and the ability to use the force will arise.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jun 11th 2023 at 11:10:37 PM

Kreia doesn't want you to do nothing at all. That sounds like a wrong takeaway form that infamous scene with the beggar. She just wants you to consider the long-term consequences of your actions beyond what's right in front of you, and take actions that will have greater effects on the world that you want, rather than only performing small deeds that don't help the bigger picture much.

One side quest in the game where this is obvious is the one in Nar Shaddaa to find and free that guy's wife. When you reunite them if you just kind of say "glad I could" and see them off then Kreia admodished you for troubling yourself to perform small act of charity, but if you choose the dialogue option telling them to take after you and help others, they'll be inspired by you enough to agree and Kreia will compliment you for smartly making use of a small act to have a greater effect on society.

Yeah that's one of the points that I agree with her on, actions have consequences and that it's always important to think long term. But that's still not a good reason to ignore the poor.

Especially since IIRC, the other option is to tell the beggar to piss off and that somehow makes him fight off other people.

There's also the fact that Kreia struggles with the fact she's evil.

She doesn't understand why Sion and Nihilus went off their rockers even as she explains that it's pointless to help people so why bother?

It is terrible to fall but far more terrible to admit it after all.

Kreia also can't follow her own logic. The above means to her the Force should be destroyed because the Force will always inspire both sides of a conflict.

She can't grasp, "Because people will be good and evil with or without magic."

There can't be any conflict if there is no life to cause conflict is her conclusion basically.

Yes but she doesn't want to kill everyone.

The sole reason she cares about The Exile is because the Exile is alive and without the Force.

They can only use the Force because they're leaching off all the other Force Sensitives in the Party.

(Kreia is using Insane Troll Logic to ignore that means they probably still do have the Force on some level)

Well, Kreia probably doesn't give a shit about poor people, but her point in that scene isn't "Don't help the poor", but more "If you want to help the poor than don't just give money to one guy and then leave it in hands of him and fate whether he'll make anything of it instead of blow the money or get mugged or something. Instead you should find ways to fix the entire situation so there aren't poor people."

Of course, that's not exactly what you're doing, fixing poverty in Nar Shaddaa is a bit beyond the scope of the game, but it's just meant to make Kreia's ideas clear and to set the tone for Nar Shaddaa as a setting. It shows what a shithole the planet is, and ties into the general goal you have on the planet of needing to go around doing a bunch of minor quests that add up to a big help or hindrance the Exchange.

The only way to fix Nar Shadda is using Mind Trick to get people to throw themselves off buildings.

And strangely people react poorly to that.

Yeah, I get that. Kreia tends to think long term and that is a point in her favor.

Now what should we do about the Hutt Cartels?

I mean, Kreia knows the Force is the life force of everything in the galaxy, and if she kills it, it might lead to everyone dying. That's certainly a possibility she is aware of.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jun 11th 2023 at 11:39:47 PM

The alternative to the Exile was also Nihilus too.

Funnily enough, I recall a brief surge in pro-Kreia fans after TLJ, likely because Kylo makes a somewhat similar thrust in his We Can Rule Together speech - namely, things have gotten so bad that we'd be better off just blowing up everything and starting over from scratch in the ruins, because literally any other option would be better than what we've got now.

Also a somewhat common viewpoint on real life at the time.

Amusingly, Kreia was also used as a mouthpiece by Chris Avellone to complain about the cyclical nature of the Jedi vs Sith conflict.

Just like Kylo Ren.

Difference, given how the rest of the film goes, is he's supposed to be wrong.

Where as it seemed like Avallone gave Kreia a loaded deck, where she always has a straight flush, no matter the situation. I don't know if it was entirely intentional though given how rushed KOTOR 2 was.

Edited by Avenger09 on Jun 12th 2023 at 4:40:39 PM

IMO, Kreia would be a lot easier to dismiss as just The Corruptor if not for the fact that the three Jedi you save turn on you no matter what you do (and then she saves you from them). That she turns out to be completely right about them lends a LOT of weight to her argument.

KOTOR 2 is doesn't put the Jedi in the best light. I mean Vrooks plan on Dantoonie was really stupid, and Zez-Kai Ell had given up on being a Jedi, Vash ended up dying, and Atris... yeah, Kavaar seems to be the only one who is still trying to be a Jedi and it feels like he just gets brainwashed when he meets up with the other two.

It doesn't help that they seemed to focused on the hidden threat that they forgot the surface threat is still a threat. The hidden threat only really matters if the surface threat doesn't kill everyone.