Sexism and Men's Issues

Why do you think it won't work? Granted, it would require a sort of collective impulse.

Think about it from an outsider's perspective. If someone with little knowledge of these matters sees a bunch of people on both sides arguing and throwing around the words "cuck" at each other, what are they going to think?

They aren't going to learn that "cuck" only applies to the "bad" people.

They are going to learn that "cuck" is an acceptable insult.

If it becomes a mere insult, unassociated with any particular group, that's neither a loss nor a victory.

Edited by TroperOnAStickV2 on Jan 23rd 2019 at 10:52:07 AM

That still makes it pointless.

Isn't that an improvement?

I may be misunderstanding what you mean by pointless.

Do you just want to call people cucks? Is that it?

"No cuck. No cuck! You're the cuck."

If we can't be better than Trump and "I know you are, but what am I?", then what, exactly, are we showing as a better example for healthy masculinity?

I don't really see the point in trying to take those words from them - it's not like we're reclaiming, as they were never ours to begin with. They're just insults, and ones coupled with a pretty reactionary stance. We don't need them, and I doubt we'd be able to take them away anyway.

I can guarantee the alt-right won't give half a shit if we "turn their language against them", and we don't need to do that to insult them in the first place.

Look at it this way. Using alt-right insults on them in an attempt to show "who they really apply to" does nothing but validate their worldview for them. Saying "we're not beta males, you're the beta males", turns the message from "the concept of beta males is stupid and contributes to toxic masculinity by shaming men who don't meet arbitrary standards" to "you're right and beta males are totally a thing, you're just wrong about who they are".

Using alt-right insults as insults requires validating those words as insults.

I don't see how it's possible to sink to their level, that's what I feel y'all are implying that trying to flip a term on them would be. That would require a fundamental shift in one's own beliefs, which I don't think any of us would do, at least not in that direction. Maintaining the moral high ground does not require perfection.

The English language would benefit greatly from a dedicated second-person-plural pronoun.

Edited by TroperOnAStickV2 on Jan 23rd 2019 at 1:47:37 PM

From what I see most of the people whom try to turn the alt-rights language against them point out that the alt-right tends to project their own insecurities and stupidity a bunch on anyone whom disagrees with them.

An alt-righter whom constantly says people on the left or people whom do not agree with them are triggered snowflakes tend to be really sensitive themselves from what I have seen.

I also feel like people whom say cuck the most probably have the cuck fetish themselves and are ashamed of it.

The alt-right's insult playbook is a list of meaningless words that are fundamentally unmoored from reality. They're snarl words and ciphers meant for listeners to impose their own personal list of traits they hate on (passive, feminine, sissy, involved in women's rights) - and if they're used consistently for anything, it's to enforce the idea that men who are considerate of others, respectful, and patient are somehow submissive doormats who deserve to be mocked. There's nothing useful in that, and that makes it a poor weapon to use, unless you don't care about making a point and your only aim is to be in a screaming shit-flinging match.

We don't need their words. If you have to get into a punch-up with an alt-righter, call them what they are, using words that have meaning.

What would the goal be in "flipping" alt-right insults, anyway? If the goal is to disarm them, it's better to just not dignify words like "cuck" with a response, or to shut them down. And to keep the metaphor, even if you do engage, just because you've made your opponent drop his shitty imprecise weapon, doesn't mean you need to pick it up and use it yourself. Bring your own and use it better.

Edited by RedSavant on Jan 23rd 2019 at 12:36:43 PM

If they're "snarl words and ciphers", they can be re-encoded in the general consciousness with the opposite of their original connotation, no? The goal would be to strip them of every tool in their playbook, and yes, I am holding humiliating them as a goal here as well. I'm aware it's petty, but y'all can surely agree they deserve it.

To build on what I think Wispy is getting at, it could and should be coupled with a bit of a Hannibal Lecture.

Edited by TroperOnAStickV2 on Jan 23rd 2019 at 1:03:16 PM

No, because a word that has no factual meaning has no opposite. What's the best-case scenario here? Some alt-righter comes at you on Twitter, calling you a cuck, and you adjust your glasses and go "no, sir, I think you'll find you're the cuck" to thunderous online applause? Do you think he'll slink off and delete his account? No one's going to retweet your scathing "actually, you're a cuck" burn, because it's not a burn. All you did was turn your brain off and use the word exactly the same way the alt-right does.

Slurs are reclaimed when the people who those slurs were designed to oppress rise up and use them as badges of honor, and take the power away from their oppressors by showing them that the weapons they made don't hurt them anymore. You can't "reclaim" an insult by turning it on its users, especially when it means nothing except "person the alt-right doesn't like". Unless you are actually a cuckold and don't like the alt-right using it - and in that case, you'd get more mileage proclaiming it of yourself. You disarm an insult by showing that it can't hurt you, not by using it to hurt even more people.

Okay, so, addressing what Wispy said. Even if it is projection - and I'm going to focus on "snowflake" now, because "cuck" is unprovable unless you know way too much about people's proclivities - if your goal is really to point out to someone that they're just as sensitive, or more sensitive, as the "snowflakes" they scorn, then either you should use more precise language and put more effort into actually getting your message across, or you don't really care about that and just want license to tweak their noses with their own insults because you think you'd get a kick out of it. No one's going to clutch their face and go "My god, they're right! All along, the snowflake was me!" because of a pithy Twitter soundbite.

Edited by RedSavant on Jan 23rd 2019 at 1:19:19 PM

It's not like you're very likely to get some kind of deep, soul-searching reaction from them anyway, no matter what you do. So, the thing to do would be to explain exactly why the insults they sling fit them better than anyone they try to use it on. Have a stock response, even.

"Reclaim" isn't really the right term, that would require a movement by, you know, actual cuckolds. The idea is to re-encode it in the public consciousness as something that applies to the original users of the term.

Edited by TroperOnAStickV2 on Jan 23rd 2019 at 1:30:28 PM

Or we could just brand them using words that are actually descriptive. Like alt-righter. Because again, the terms and insults used by alt-righters are designed to tear down sensitive, respectful maleness as inferior to their own brand of toxic manhood. If you want to go on 4chan and find a definition, and then engage an alt-righter on Twitter with "well, if you look at this chart, you'll see that you're passive, you don't have a girlfriend, you don't advocate wife-beating...", not only are you spreading the idea that "beta male" is a classification that means something, you're also missing the point of what they use it for.

Basically, if you bring "beta male" into wide circulation with any of its original intention still attached, you're reinforcing that worldview. If all you're after is a generic insult, you're not exactly hurting for options among the choices English already offers.

I just don't see why you insist on picking up a shit-covered stick to do a job that you have plenty of other options for.

You can't beat Trolls at being Troll because people used to engage with them all the time.

It was only later people realized how pointless it was.

I'm not sure what the bit about the chart means. Could just be me losing steam. It's not aiming for a generic insult, it's explicitly flipping their term back on them. Rebranding the insults as applying to their perversion of masculinity.

Edited by TroperOnAStickV2 on Jan 23rd 2019 at 1:58:34 PM

To be honest, I've already spent more of my work hours on this than I really should have, so I'm just gonna bow out.

Guys how to insult the alt-right really isn’t a men’s issue.

I bring this up largely because he talks about stuff this thread is about, but apparently Jonathan McIntosh is not very fond of TVTropes. At all. The attached comments are even more harsh. Granted none of the criticisms are new to me, but what does everyone think? I understand his point, but I find his presentation kind of snotty, which is a problem I have with his work and critiques even though I agree with a lot of them.

Oh dear, not this clown.

We're just a bunch of nerds having fun by giving common tropes cute names. What'd he expect, academic level media analysis?

These's a lot of stuff here to like, but I can see someone making a living out of media criticism to have "outgrown" this place.

Hmm? What's wrong with this one?

Edited by Kayeka on Jan 24th 2019 at 6:49:50 PM

"Oppressive tropes"?