Sexism

It's really this bit that I'm focused on. This is what leads me to think that the gamers you hang out with blame their issues with the AAA game industry on women. They're basically part of the "SJ Ws ruin everything!" crowd. Which is also an issue in the USA too.

So maybe your fellow gamers' bigotry isn't so different from what we've got in the USA.

Obviously, bigotry is bigotry.

I just don't wanna talk about their attitudes discussing the AAA industry because...I really don't know about them.

I've see many viewpoints about them from them. But is not something that I'm particularly interesed. Some blame it in feminism, others don't.

Eh. Is a issue that I'm not informed.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 16th 2018 at 12:22:35 PM

If you didn't want to talk about it, why bring it up in the first place? It seems like you were trying to say that your gaming bigots are somehow more enlightened since they acknowledge the AAA industry games' issues rather than defend them. Except all you did was confirm that they blame the issues on women. Which is not all that different from the sexism among gamers from the USA and other countries.

This.

Even Extra Credits caught themselves a lot of criticism for a series of episodes they released defending microtransactions and lootboxes, declaring that these monetization methods are needed for the industry to keep producing the kind of titles gamers want, while also very condescendingly dismissing recent major successes like Breath of the Wild or Horizon: Zero Dawn that opted to forego such measures and make their profits the old-fashioned way.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 16th 2018 at 12:10:43 PM

Gamers let a lot of stuff fly for AAA devs that would not work with indie devs or lesser known upcoming devs.

I have seen indie companies fall for lesser slights. The company that made Gigantic for example? They didn't do anything wrong, they just never could attract much of an audience for their game despite being an really new company with an very unique take on the MOBA genre. Wildstar's Carbine Studios? The mistake they made was focus too much on the hardcore/pro part of gamers which sadly ended up eventually killing what was otherwise an good game. Something which many AAA companies can do without fear and get off lightly everyday.

Its depressing. I see so many examples of good games made by smaller or newer companies failing hard in the industry while shitshows like EA games is somehow still alive because people still buy their games. Blizzard in the past few years has also disillusioned me as they are one of the AAA companies that claims to be better than the others when they are not.

The gaming industry has gotten worse, they are all obsessed with E-Sports now or getting as much money out as possible.

It's a shame too, since indie games are one of the main ways diversity is being brought into the gaming industry. Quite a few indie games are developed by women.

What? No. My point is that I see them as separate issues where even bigots can disagree.

AKA. Someone can be angry at the bad economic policies of the AAA industry and still be a bigot. Some can directly blame woman for it, others just act in a hostile apathy (why you care about it?).

Being bigoted is enough reason to dislike them, their views in economics policies become meaningless. Like, they support the AAA industry or don't? They're still bigoted, so it really matters when discussing their bigotry?

Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 17th 2018 at 6:55:04 AM

It does matter. If they use the real issues of the AAA industry as an excuse to bash women...that's a huge problem. Again, you were the one saying they blame the issues on the industry supposedly being too busy pandering to women.

It's just more of the same awful mindset that blames women and "SJ Ws" for everything wrong under the sun.

What I'm trying to say is that it really seems like these bigoted gamers you've encountered hate women so much that they take everything wrong with the AAA industry as proof that women ruin everything — even though those issues have nothing to do with women being involved.

Edited by M84 on Sep 17th 2018 at 8:11:42 PM

Oh yeah, a lot of them do.

Is just that they're not the same type of sexist gamer that I interact usually. Most of the bigoted gamers that I met are in the niche communities. Mainly because I'm in them as well (hard to meet bigoted AAA fans if you don't play them).

I think that is a issue of me mistaking a bigger social trend (sexism from AAA fans and it's critics blaming woman for it) with other, more personal types of sexist gamers (the fan of obscure non AAA franchises that both-side feminists and sexists while being both apathic and hostile towards feminists).

I have actually meet a fair amount of bigoted nerds. I think that I can do a chart about them. A tongue in cheek one.

I can't really speak a lot of the AAA bigoted fans. Sadly.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 17th 2018 at 8:10:13 AM

I will be willing to bet that even these gamers also complain about diversity in their niche games. Do they also complain about female game developers? They might also be blaming the problems in their games on diversity.

Edited by M84 on Sep 17th 2018 at 9:10:34 PM

The bigoted niche gamer is bigoted. Period.

They're not openly sexist and actually like having female characters and developers.

...so they can point their fingers to feminists and say "Here is what you wanted! And you still complain about sexism! I like those females and non-whites! How I can be bigoted?".

Is a more subtle form of sexism. But is just as bad because it's relative subtlety.

That's why I'd call their sexism being a form of Hostile Apathy rather than being actively agressive.

Is just as bad, is just that is harder to point in my personal experience. Most females niche fans end up agreeing with me somewhat when I mention it to them, so fortunately is not only me being a "paranoic feminazi".

Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 17th 2018 at 8:15:13 AM

It sounds like they are complaining about women wanting more representation and point at the female protagonists and developers who already exist to say "You have enough already! Quit whining!"

It's not subtle at all. These gamers don't want more female protagonists or game developers and consider the mere existence of the present day ones as a huge sacrifice on their part.

Edited by M84 on Sep 17th 2018 at 9:16:27 PM

Yeah. Dunno which is the right word for their behavior. They do the same with modern games.

Is a interesting theme to discuss.

Is subtle compared to stuff as public outrage but for it's own? Far from it.

They don't considerate the existence of females a huge sacrifice. Most of them are happy with female characters.

They ""just"" hate feminism. A lot.

They are the same group that put a divide between "deep social criticism" for what they like and "SJW garbage" for what they dislike. Which leads to them liking feminists stories without wanting to admit it.

Is not open hatred ("females aren't real games!!"). Is a form of Hostile apathy (there females here, I don't know why feminists are complaining. They complain a lot).

Dunno how define it.

Is a type of attitude that I've found far more times that Open Hostility. A attitude that both sides sexists gamers and feminists.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 17th 2018 at 8:28:18 AM

What I'm saying is that the very fact they think women should be satisfied with the current crop of female protagonists and developers — even though they are still drastically underrepresented — and resent women for pushing for more is damning.

I bet they did indeed resent the fact that female protagonists and developers became a thing at all but suppressed it since it would have made it blatantly obvious how sexist they are. But now that there are more of them, they are no longer suppressing it and claiming women should be happy with what they have and how DARE they want more! Don't those women know their place!

These gamers you are talking about — I genuinely don't think they like female protagonists and developers at all. You yourself have stated they claim to like them mainly so they can use their existence to shut down feminists who want a more level playing field. They are basically going "See, we have female protagonists in games! So stop complaining!"

It's like someone pointing at the Token Minority Characters in movies and tv shows and claiming "See, we have diversity already! Stop whining!"

When you say they hate feminism, what you are saying is that they hate the idea of people pushing for more equality for women. And there's a word to describe people who don't want or care about women being equal.

Edited by M84 on Sep 17th 2018 at 9:45:48 PM

Bigoted?

I'm...not denying that at all. My entire point is that they were bigoted but trying to deny it. Invoking Not Like Other Girls (phrased as "Not like Those girls") and sometimes /You Are a Credit to Your Race.

AKA. Genuinely Liking stuff made for woman but doing mental gymnastics to continue saying "screw feminism".

Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 17th 2018 at 8:55:18 AM

You're the one trying to look for a word to describe their behavior. Why not just stick with "sexist"? Because, as you said, that's what it is.

I was just confused by why you were looking for another term to describe them. It made it seem like you didn't think sexist was the right word for them.

Edited by M84 on Sep 17th 2018 at 9:57:19 PM

I mean more as types of sexist behavior. Sexism is bad, but not all sexists act and show it the same.

Just call it out as sexism the next time you encounter it. Make it very clear what you think it is.

As an more recent example of how bad the gaming industry, atleast the AAA part of it can be for women.

• An woman that was Arena Net dev recently got fired for blasting someone whom was asking her stuff about Guild Wars 2. It turned into this big controversial fiasco and another dev that tried to defend her got fired as well. Now while I don't agree that her reaction was warranted I do not think she deserved being fired. I have seen other devs, all male, say and do way worse shit like naming and shaming people, telling in their fanbases to f off pretty much, sexual harrassing others, and all that nasty stuff yet they got off scott free more often than not while that women is still likely getting targeted by the alt-reich right now.

• Cyberpunk 2077 has been under fire for having their women being too punk, aka toxic sexist male gamers (and some TERFS) think that women can't choose how to cloth themselves and that if they choose to cloth themselves in alternative clothing that they are sluts or whores pretty much. This is especially stupid considering the genre.

• While I hate how EA (not DICE) is handling Battlefield V I do think that's its becoming less about historical accuracy and more about the alt-reich agenda which is depressing to see. Even with that said these whiners will likely still buy the game despite their complaints.

• The DOOM Eternal controversy was blamed on women (SJW boogeymen bullshit) despite the fact that you really have to dig deep to find an controversy out of that making it likely faked to yet again try to further the alt-reich agenda.

• The newest Gears of War has a female protag whom is already getting shit from wannabe uber masculine marine hotshots that think they are the hottest shit.

• Female E-Sports gamers barely even exist, and if they do try to get into the leagues they are bound to be given shit way more than male E-Sports players. I have seen countless examples.

This is just stuff off the top of my head. I could likely find even more. Don't even get me started on how big shooter communities like Overwatch and Counter-Strike treats women.

Edited by Wispy on Sep 17th 2018 at 10:58:30 AM

The question in that particular case would probably be more "Why didn't these guys get fired as well?"

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 17th 2018 at 8:08:21 PM

The Arena Net thing is particularly insidious since, on the surface, the guy's comments weren't particularly off. But it really does give off a vibe of a male fan acting like he knows better than a woman who does this sort of thing for a living. And a woman who has had to put up with that sort of thing all the time will understandably be rather sore about anything that has even a hint of it.

The answer is pretty obvious of course: it's okay for men to do it but not for women to do it. Women are expected to shut up and know their place.

Edited by M84 on Sep 18th 2018 at 2:12:36 AM

I actually do think that she didn't react very well but that didn't warrant her getting fired nor another dev getting fired for trying to defend her.

My issue mainly with it is that I have seen male devs of other companies react the same exact way or worse and yet people would give them free passes immediately or forget about it within a week.

The responses she was getting from other supposed fans were absolutely horrid too.

Edited by Wispy on Sep 18th 2018 at 12:49:18 PM

I mean, look at the whole Riot situation. There was more of a pushback from the fans about a Riot employee holding a panel for female gamers than there was over the entire culture of sexual harassment.

Possibly related to how the women are written. I haven't quite seen enough to be sure, but some conversations I read suggest that a lot of people suspicious of "feminist influences" seem to think that female Antiheroes don't count.

Edited by Novis on Sep 18th 2018 at 2:32:28 AM

There was an team that consisted of women at one point which is considered to be an laughing stock of the League community. It was an incredibly messy affair filled with drama and just general issues. I do not get why a lot of idiots only takeaway from that though is Lol women can't be professional gamers cause they are women. Most if not all e-sports teams are total sausage fests and there has been a lot of nasty group breakups over the years no matter which gender and I have met a lot of really shitty (at the game) and toxic male players so its not really a gender thing.

I have also met really nice women and men in gaming. I just wish they were the loudest voices.