Page Restoration Petitions

... Gunslinger Girl is a drama piece where the exploitation of young children was because said girls were being raised to be Child Soldier TykeBombs, and Pani Poni Dash is a Widget Series that's intended to be bizarre and full of anime shoutouts.

So, I'm not entirely sure those comparisons quite stick, good sir.

edited 7th Jul '12 4:14:37 PM by Raidouthe21st

I haven't seen any Popotan, so I can't even begin to address that post, but I was really only linking the thread to try and help.

Also, yeah, Pani Poni Dash doesn't sexualize the ten-year-old in the show at all, is a Widget Show, and was released with a TV-PG rating in the US. I know because I'm looking at the video box right now.

Exactly. I've seen Pani Poni Dash. There are no fetish outfits. It's a pretty standard PG series. It's weird, yes, but there are no fetish outfits.

There's cosplay as a goth loli, but yeah that's not what you mean.

Something about the intent of Popotan doesn't quite feel pure.

edited 7th Jul '12 4:38:11 PM by UltimatelySubjective

Allow me to quote Accidental Aesop:

"At first, Gunslinger Girl's disturbing depiction of the horrors and abuses its innocent little girl protagonists faced and how their lives were completely destroyed was lauded by many fans as a Deconstruction of the lolicon genre and/or a commentary on the use of Child Soldiers. Nope. Turns out it's straight-up Author Appeal. [...] As time went on and the series' popularity grew, the creator gained Protection From Editors, and it became decidedly more Fanservice-y and disturbing for totally different reasons."

It's the first example on the page. If Gunslinger Girl is allowed to stay because it can be interpreted as a deconstruction when its creator clearly thought otherwise, I'd be perfectly fine with that. Death of the Author and so forth. 5P obviously wouldn't, if they're content with deleting a page because the creator might have had unwholesome motives.

As for Pani Poni Dash!, regardless if it's supposed to be a Widget Series or not, it does have the scenes I mentioned in my previous post. I'm not talking about the actual series, I'm talking about the intertitles (what plays before and after the commercial breaks; I might be using the wrong term). I'm pretty sure they do have Rebecca (is that her name?) in, for example, a catgirl outfit. If I'm wrong, I sincerely apologize, but I've seen those scenes somewhere and I could've sworn they were from the show.

Anyway, speaking of puzzling decisions, Strike Witches is still here, despite the fact that it's about young girls fighting each other wearing panties (again, if I'm wrong, do say so). Popotan got zapped even though it's a drama/comedy more than it's ecchi. Kodomo no Jikan got zapped because it contained scenes of children engaging in sexual activities, despite the fact that, as far as I know, it was also the story about a child learning about what love is. Or something. If Fast Eddie and his supporters don't like something and want it deleted, I could live with that, but I think I can ask of them to be consistent.

It feels like we're getting slightly off topic. I don't think the current locking spree is the way to go at all, so if I can defend Popotan without bringing down others in the process, I'd be very happy. Could we please concentrate on my other points? Just forget I brought them up for the time being.

Speak of the Devil. What about the intent do you feel isn't pure? It's not like it revolves around the characters bathing all the time, it's a time travel story that, like I said, contains bath scenes.

I'm not trying to chastice you for linking me the thread, so I'm genuinely sorry if I came off that way. I've just done my research (on Popotan, that is), that's all.

...You know, there's a reason that Your Mileage May Vary is called Your Mileage May Vary...

Kodomo no Jikan isn't about a young girl learning what love is in the slightest.

No worries, I just wanted to make sure you didn't think I was patronising you or anything. Usually first procedure is to link to a thread if the work in question was or is being discussed.

edited 7th Jul '12 5:02:49 PM by LargoQuagmire

Popotan for me was a case of too many straws and not enough camel-shaped back braces. Any of the individual elements I mentioned, in a different series depending on the context, could possibly get a pass. The combination of elements in this series gave me an impression that it was meant for titillation, however, so I will stand by my vote to cut it.

I haven't reviewed the other series mentioned in comparison, but if I need to in the future I will judge them on their own merits.

edited 7th Jul '12 5:07:39 PM by Meeble

Eh, what Meeble said applies to me, as well.

I have seen the splash screens on Pani Poni Dash. They are nothing like you describe them. There is not fetish wear. I just checked on hulu. I watched every episode's ad break. No fetish wear.

Seriously, the raciest thing she wears is a rather modest sun dress while eating ice cream. It is in no way sexual.

edited 7th Jul '12 5:21:31 PM by shimaspawn

...and yet 5P and Eddie are perfectly willing to delete a series because they saw it as paedophilia. I certainly don't. Does the fact that I don't share their exact views on what's appropriate and what isn't mean I'm wrong? No, of course not, so why do we give the power to mark pages as so called "paedoshit" to only four people?

Again, that's interpretation. People have different opinions on what certain works mean, and should be able to do so without someone looking over their shoulder and calling them names when they don't perfectly abide to their standards.

Like I said, we're getting off topic. Does any of you have any objections to my other points? You don't need to have seen the series, I've explained in plain terms the "raciest" it gets.

edited 7th Jul '12 5:11:11 PM by Lindaeus

We need a system so we can tell when people are writing and thus we'd know when to wait. This is getting terribly disjointed.

Quality over quantity. If there's many instances of the same thing (in this case simple nudity), I don't see how their "effect" would be "amplified", if you understand what I mean. There are many instances of Haruhi more or less molesting Mikuru in her series. Yes, Mikuru is explicitly said (if I recall correctly) to be seventeen years old, but in this case the obvious distress of a girl who's still young is portrait as not a big deal, and I'm pretty certain that's more disturbing than acknowledging the fact that everybody has buttocks regardless of age. Also, I've given context. A child bathing isn't pornography.

Is that what they're called? All right, forget I mentioned them. Sorry for digressing the thread.

It's 2:25 AM where I'm at, so this will be my last post for now. I'll be back in about 14 hours, give or take.

edited 7th Jul '12 5:26:18 PM by Lindaeus

Haruhi Suzumiya bothers me on many levels, that one especially. In-universe, it's not treated as a big deal that Haruhi decides to molest the seventeen-year-old all the time, which strikes me as horrifying the more it presses on. I imagine it's a similar situation for the P5 and Popotan - it might be innocent nudity at first, but they've found that there's a lot of it and the sheer volume is bothersome.

Also, the other anime's plot isn't up to interpretation at all. It's about a nine year old trying to seduce her teacher.

edited 7th Jul '12 5:30:49 PM by LargoQuagmire

Technically, Kyon — the First Person Narrator — does voice his complaints about such acts from Haruhi (at least early on; he appears to have become jaded due to repetition and Haruhi completely shrugging off/ignoring said complaints every time), especially in the original light novels.

edited 7th Jul '12 5:40:34 PM by MarqFJA

I've got to agree with Komodin & Meeble regarding Popotan here. Individual scenes are borderline passable, but there's just too many of them.

As for 's mention of Haruhi - or more specifically, Mikuru - I just wanted to get one fact straight: She is not stated to be 17. Indeed, it is part of her characterization that her age is never stated.

edited 7th Jul '12 9:17:33 PM by Sabbo

I'm just not seeing it.

There's some scenes in Popotan that I'd say are definitely meant for titillation. They're pretty recognizable because the camera work* screams at you "Look at Ai's breasts now!"

Mii doesn't get that. She gets the camera work trying to direct attention away from her... when it makes sense. This does make it stand out from other series, which do it when it *doesn't* make sense.

And honestly, outside of bath scenes, the series just doesn't have that much fanservice. And I just can't see the bath scenes as fanservicey. They're just too prosaic.

Personally, I think that while Popotan may merit a second review, we'd be better of letting it sit for some time. At this point, the P5 is probably sick of talking about it and people who want it back will be unhappy because the P5's decision is still firm at the moment. Given a period to get away from it for awhile they might reconsider the idea.

That said, the page restoration thread is not exactly swamped with other petitions.

She's at least 17, given that she's enrolled as a second-year highschool student, one grade higher than both Kyon and Haruhi.

And I'm back. I'm sure everyone missed me.

You're absolutely right. I haven't seen the second season yet so don't quote me on this, but isn't there an episode were Kyon is basically forced to apologize to Haruhi because he had problems with her drugging Mikuru and forcing her to do a love scene? And we're supposed to laugh at this hilarious turn of events? Like I said earlier, I find this way more disturbing than cartoon breasts; however, if someone actually thought that it was not a big deal, I'd let them have that opinion. It's common courtesy to let people speak their mind if they honestly have an opinion, no matter how outlandish for other people.

We're not discussing the light novels. Just as Popotan the anime isn't Popotan the visual novel, there are enough differences between the various adaptations of Haruhi to merit distinctions. Also, regardless of how much Kyon complains, the events are still played as funny. I don't have a problem with people finding things funny when I don't, but then that's kind of my point about this ongoing "shutdown" to begin with.

That's even worse. She could be younger for all we know, you mean? I do however think there's a mention of her being the other characters' senior, which would make her at least 17, wouldn't it?

You took the words straight out of my mouth.

I don't mean to sound obsessive (although I've probably failed), but have they given any indication that they're willing to do that? And who else but me want the page back? I was basically the only one adding Tropes to it for almost half a year.

In any case, I'd like to make some final clarifications before we let this issue wait.

Pani Poni Dash!: The reason I mentioned the shots in question was because this guy mentioned them in his review of the series (he mentions them somewhere between the beginning and the middle). He also mentioned and showed them on his old YouTube channel, but it's been taken down. All in all, I might be wrong, but I'm apparently not the only one.

Kodomo no Jikan: There's no question about what the series is literally about, but you could definitely argue that its message goes deeper than "Oh, look at that adorable child grinding against her teacher!". I don't read the series, but I remember the page we once had for it; it wasn't all about the lolicon, is what I'm saying. Nevertheless, KNJ is not something we need to discuss at the moment.

And finally, Popotan itself: From what I understand, the problem is either that the series contains material that could be considered arousing by certain people, or that the creators themselves meant for it to be arousing. If the former, I refer to both Morganite's post above as well as my own regarding nudity in media (the one with Madicken on page 76); if the latter, I still believe that the character Mii's "antics", as it were, are not meant to be fanservice, because there'd be a lot more "Whoopsie, I dropped my towel, please don't look at me~!" if that were the case. That's bringing attention to the fact that the character's naked, and that's what I guess would be considered erotic.

Sorry for another long post, but we need to fully understand what points are being made if we are to do this properly.

EDIT: I swear that post wasn't there before. Anyway, point proven.

edited 8th Jul '12 6:35:01 AM by Lindaeus

Kn J isn't coming back. Period.

That's not proven. Nor is it important. What's important here - if anything - is that she enough so looked the age for the school to enroll her as that year level. (Or as whatever year level she had enrolled in previously; I don't recall it being clear)

Also, to cut this discussion short: There's no way anyone could ever mistake Mikuru for an under-age character (neither by looks nor by behaviour), so the - admittedly questionable - scenes between her and Haruhi (who's also clearly not under-age, except maybe in moral maturity) are definitely not pedo-pandering. Thus, any comparisons with works that were cut for being pedo-pandering will lead us nowhere, since it has been explicitly stated upthread that the criteria for that are much stricter than for other sexual content.

Edit: As far as I understand, the problem with Popotan was less the explicit content but the fact that under-age characters were taking part in it. Previous discussions show that this makes a major difference.

edited 8th Jul '12 7:06:21 AM by jkbeta

Yes, this isn't about Haruhi. Unless you can prove that work is pedo-pandering or porn which seems unlikely (and would still go in the other thread). Not even rape (on its own) is a basis for cutting a work.

This isn't an argument thread either so too much discussion not directly related to the restoration of a work could count as a derail.

I think dragging too many other works into the fray is probably a bad idea too. It's not quite on the level of Rules Lawyering but it is also something we are trying to avoid.

And regarding your arguments, I think that they seem to address the specific points rather than the context of the work, which was the reason it was cut.

If you could demonstrate that Popotan is significantly different than the source material, really is a good bleached underpants version and it was not intended for the same audience as the game at all, then there might be more of a basis to restore it. After all, Popotan is listed as an Ecchi work and appears to be aimed at older men, quite likely fans of the unquestionably cuttable Visual Novel. This doesn't quite paint it as a work that is aiming to be a simple story about family that anyone can enjoy.

edited 8th Jul '12 7:23:00 AM by UltimatelySubjective

Lindaeus: That's what this thread is for. We bring stuff here that we don't think should have been cut and ask it to be brought back. Hopefully, at that time we present new arguments and evidence. Since I don't think you'll receive a very sympathetic reviewal immediately after we cut it, I would suggest organizing your thoughts and points in a manner that will be likely to be persuasive and bringing it back in a week or so. You don't have to do that, I'm not on the P5, I simply think it would probably give you a more favorable result even if the page isn't restored in the end.

Well, that said, it's probably too late for that now. Me, I'm probably on the fence, but I can say that at the moment you're not really saying much that hasn't been said before and it wasn't enough then.

edited 8th Jul '12 8:41:51 AM by Arha

I know Kodomo isn't coming back, neither am I trying to make it come back. There's no reason to mention it anymore at all.

That's not the point. I'm not vouching for Haruhi to be deleted or anything, I'm using it as a comparison regarding what is more "unhealthy". You're right in that we don't need to bring it up, though, so I'll second your wish not to do so.

If we need to compare different series to come to a conclusion, we should do so. We're talking about deleting entire works here, so it would be in our interest to examine each case separately.

You want evidence that they're not intended for the same audiences? All right:

• The story is completely different; if you changed characters, there'd be no connection at all.
  • In accordance to the above, the characters are different as well, if only because their existance is not based on hooking up with the main character, who doesn't even exist in the anime's universe. Adult visual novels advertise themselves on the basis that the player is this character, and that s/he is the one having these relationships; how can the anime be intended for the same audience if absolutely nothing in the game happens in the anime?
• Popotan is not primarily ecchi, it just has ecchi elements. If you ask me, ecchi as a "genre" would be to center the plot around a sexual topic, and deriving most of its humour from the events that would likely occur. Someone looking for softcore pornography would watch something like Eiken, which I mentioned earlier, or Green Green. The latter, by the way, is a perfect example of an anime intended for the same audience as its source material: the protagonist is an everyman who happens to be the object of affection for several women. That is anime for adult men. Popotan is a comedic drama first and foremost.

Also, Popotan could very well be watched by children, in my opinion. I saw the aforementioned Madicken as a child, along with other work featuring child nudity like Lotta på Bråkmakargatan and Bröderna Lejonhjärta (in the latter case, it was the original novel). The nudity in Popotan is only as in-your-face as you'd want it to be yourself. If you disagree about this, though, I quite understand, but that just goes to show that this isn't a series everybody's immediately going to turn away from and declare as child pornography.

Case in point, here's three reviews pretty much agreeing with me (the last one is a blog post, granted, but it also has a comment from someone who also made a review of it bringing up the same points; I'm afraid you're going to have to simply trust me on that one, because I can't enter his website). No, they're not professional reviewers (they aren't paid, that is, at least as far as I know), but neither are we, and that includes 5P.

I've read the thread were 5P discussed whether to cut the series or not. I can guarantee that if any of my arguments were brought up, they sure weren't in that thread.

However, I think you're right. At this point, we're not going anywhere, so I'd be willing to wait a week.

I do have a few questions specifically for you, though. Have you seen the series? Also, do you think the administrators would mind if I brought up the fact that Popotan's been deleted in the Anime forum, and asked whoever would be willing to join the discussion once it starts again?

edited 8th Jul '12 8:53:50 AM by Lindaeus