Manga/Dragon Ball

The PTO are advanced in terms of space travel. Bulma is advanced in terms of theoretical physics. Gero is advanced in terms of robotics and biological enhancements. Different fields.

It feels like 90% of Androids arc is characters just sitting around and waiting until someone powers up enough to do something, while the villains fart around.

Dammit, this got bottom-paged and I typed a lot more despite not wanting to.

I think Jo also pointed out that the science of a planet may not be that strong considering that it's regarded as a backwater so puny that Saiyan children were sent to cut their teeth on crushing it along with the fact that they are far behind the interstellar space travel shown by the Saiyans, Namekians, or the Planetary Trade Organization, along with the inventions of Scouters.

"Science can enhance a person beyond" is a natural and reasonable conclusion, yes. It's the fact that it enhanced them leaps and bounds beyond the strongest mortal in the universe, bar none.

Tao didn't get much a boost from his mechanics to beat Tien. How good were the prior Androids supposed to be? Getting to "beyond Frieza" level is also pretty questionable for a guy who supposedly did this without the help of the very army he's supposed to be avenging.

...Damn it, I wasn't trying to get that much into it.

Gero spent more than a decade studying Goku & friends, I don’t think it’s that big a stretch.

The PTO has impressive spacefaring tech, but Bulma and her family have invented some shit. Capsule technology, a shrinking watch, even a goddamn time machine.

Indeed, throughout the Namek arc, the Earthlings had one key advantage over both Vegeta and Frieza: They, alone, possessed a handheld radar Bulma invented that could reveal the location of Dragon Balls. Y'know, a phenomenally brilliant piece of tech Bulma built as a teenager, which nobody on- or off-world has ever been able to reproduce without studying Bulma's design first.

All while Goku was the first person ever to think of super-training in an artificial gravity generator where he can pack on the G-forces for added effect.

The Earthlings needed alien help to get into space, but Earthling technology played a major role in evening the playing field against the incredibly powerful aliens they were up against.

As for the Androids... Well, Frieza is the most powerful natural, fully organic fighter in the universe. And that is super meaningful. It's still a big deal, even in Super. But. Like.

Frieza is Bruce Lee. Lapis and Lazuli are the T-800. That's how the Sorting Algorithm of Evil treats them. Goku's out-benched the greatest bodybuilder alive, but now he has to out-bench a fucking crane.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 14th 2022 at 11:32:29 AM

It's funny to think that Gero was already like in his 60s when Goku destroyed RRA, and the height of his accomplishment where Major Metalic and Eighter. He wasn't new at this by any means, and he had all the resources of RRA on his side.

But in the next decade he somehow constructed Androids with infinite power source that are like million times stronger, went back to drawing board when those didn't work out and created technology to absorb ki the mystical energy of living beings, and use it as power source (and fast enough to absorb planet destroying attacks), transplanted his own brain into one of those robots, build a robot replica of his own son, and in his spare time he spliced up genes from three completely different alien races, to create a functioning living being with all their strengths, that also knows their martial art techniques, because that's how DNA works, duh.

Literally in a cave, with a box of scraps.

What I'm trying to say, it's hilarious how much Gero upped his game after Goku destroyed RRA. He must've been really into their grand ambition of making Commander Red taller.

Right after the greatest bodybuilder alive showed up with shitty, improvised prosthetic limbs and proceeded to beat his own record, thus establishing the advantage that technology can give over mortal flesh.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jan 14th 2022 at 12:35:20 PM

The Android arc...after the initial showdown with 19 & 20 to the epic loss to 17 & 18...is just waiting around for characters to power up while the villains faff about.

Or the Heroes faff about while Perfect Cell just stands in the middle of an arena for 9 days.

Edited by randomness4 on Jan 14th 2022 at 2:44:01 PM

But it's weird to introduce it now, after all the worldbuilding to the contrary. Weapons, and robots have always been shown to be no match for martial arts. Goku destroyed the strongest army in the world as a child. The last two arcs firmly establish that the dominant military paradigm in the universe is literally just having the strongest dudes on your side.

At this point introducing the idea that actually you can science up stuff stronger than all of that is a pretty big change in direction.

Well, we know a lot of the issues came from Toriyama changing gears due to the criticisms of his previous editor.

I agree though that Gero creating being more powerful than the strongest being in the universe by pure accident was a little odd. Though the fact that he's a damn good engineer (both mechanical and genetic in Cell is anything to go by) may help. That and the fact that his spy bugs may have gotten at least a little look at PTO tech.

The conflict is questionable. As Tobias said, there's no reason for the Androids (barring 16) to want to kill Goku. Cell....well, there kinda is a reason to stop him. He's eating people, which makes him a murderer. That's a good reason to halt his rampage. Him eating the Androids and ending that threat is a questionable idea considering what he's willing to do to become strong enough to fight them.

Basically, if Toriyama hadn't kept changing ideas so quickly, who knows what we'd have gotten.

I still like Cell, and I've stated why: The culminations of almost all of Goku's foes (especially in the anime, where he has the Cells of the other characters besides Saiyan, Namekian, and Frieza).

You are correct, that is a big change in direction. Just like going from an adventure to collect mystical artifacts to fighting in a tournament to fighting an evil army back to fighting in a tournament to fighting an ancient demon lord. Just like going from fighting in a tournament to fighting alien invaders to traveling to an alien planet and fighting a real estate mogul. Just like going from fighting a bio-engineered time-traveling bug man to fighting a god-killing bubble-gum genie.

Dragon Ball changes story directions with every arc, that's its thing.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jan 14th 2022 at 1:01:12 PM

Toriyama really just writes about whatever hits his fancy next.

I'm not so sure about that anymore, what with what Tobias' reviews have revealed.

Though I imagine that there's a grain of truth in that.

The idea behind Cell isn't bad. It's the execution of him that I've always had issues with. What Cell is, is well explained. But he suffers from a significant motive problem, in that he doesn't actually want much of anything. What he wants is to become Perfect by defeating the arc's central villains.

He does so, becoming the new central villain, and then he doesn't have anything else to want. He wants to prove how big his dick is now. The same thing that all of the protagonists want, all the time, in every single arc. "Show off how tough I've gotten" is the central driving motive of every single character, and has always been.

That's not enough to make for an epic final villain battle, so he dangles a villainous act - I'll destroy the world, I guess - over everyone's heads to make them fight him. Even though they'd already fight him anyway because, like, this might as well be the stakes of the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai at this point.

At one point, Cell declares apropos of nothing that Dr. Gero meant for him to exterminate all life in the universe. And. Like. Okay. Fine. Cell is literally making up new motivations for himself and Gero at this point, just to give any stakes at all to this final battle.

The Cell Games are the stupidest thing that ever happened in Dragon Ball history.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 14th 2022 at 12:08:34 PM

I dunno, I kinda like this line:

You mean the two teens who got kidnapped by Gero and have absolutely zero reason to try and realize his plans? Have zero actual beef with any of the heroes? Who at any moment can just stop being in conflict with them and go live peaceful lives, and indeed just do that in the end?

I don't think lack of motivation problem even started with Cell.

Compare that to Freeza, who has very well defined motivations, and it hard to believe it was written by the same guy.

Gero, you were on a payroll of a guy who wanted to make himself taller. Calm down my dude.

I'm still ok with Cell being like that because he's got a bad combination of Vegeta and Goku's saiyan instincts with Frieza's.

It has been said by Toriyama that Frieza's mutation made him (and his dad) both more powerful than others of his kind, and more evil as well.

Combine that with Saiyan blood lust, and oh shit: you got this asshole. Plus, he's got aspects of Piccolo in him, possibly back when he was still Mazoku as well.

That....is a lot of evil. Of course, it's not explicitly stated, beyond Cell himself suspecting it when Piccolo asks why he even wanted to be perfect (since he was essentially King of the Mountain back in his timeline even without being able to absorb the Androids), but it's possible.

So much chaos and havoc inflicted upon the Earth in the name of avenging Red's unresolved shortness.

Yeah, Cell struck me as having the personal traits of his components from the very beggining. And, no matter how much fluff it gets added, Cell is Goku + Piccolo + Vegeta + Freeza. "I want to see how much stronger you can get" is a Goku move.

And he also goes around eating people alive. Vegeta after Namek may be a dick, but, Retired Monster, and he pursues strenght not by eating people.

And, in any case, Cell becomes Perfect not even 2 days after 19 and 20's first attack AFAIK. Namek may had been the craziest Christmas ever, but the Android saga were a pair of days of utter havok (that lasted years for some of the involved parties).

Then again, the entire Buu saga is also a pair of days.

If the two unrevealed characters for DBS Superhero are Goten and Trunks, do you think they'll have the End of Z outfits or a new design?

That would be a good homage if they go for the End of Z looks.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 14th 2022 at 12:59:11 PM

I wonder how much involvement Toriyama's editors had on Dragon ball. I know the Editor/Writer relationship is very complex but I wonder how much influence the editors had on the series? How much Toriyama's ideas had to be changed to suit the story?

That's why I don't like Cell being in crossovers, especially in Jump Force. His moveset is either too rigid or boring, Fighter Z gets mad credit for not making him feel like a clone.

I mean, he has an unique fighting style in both of his memorable forms. Imperfect is outright animalistic, he moves like a goddamn xenomorph, with limbs too long for his frame. And Perfect is a martial artist that bulldozes through, but not in a Nappa-esque brute way, or even like Piccolo. He is fully aware of his size, yet moves gracefully and with no wasted movements, always standing tall.

He still favors the Kamehameha a lot, but the games are working on that; still, tech-wise other than using all three of the Kamehameha, the Makankosappo and the Death Beam at once, he usually doesn't bring much to the table other than the barrier. Going by Xenoverse, he has the blast that crippled Gohan and some Kiais.

Well, here's a fun video with some almost uncanny timing for this topic. To be fair, it goes over a lot of stuff we already talked about here, but its entertaining if you've got the free time. And actually is making me rethink the Android saga a bit...