Manga/Dragon Ball

I mean, yeah. That.

That was what I always had in mind and was thinking of.

I can easily imagine it being brought up that as a result of Vegeta's incompatibility with Ultra Instinct, Gogeta and Vegetto just. Can't do it.

But that's literally not how it works.

There has yet to be a technique or transformation that the fusions cannot access to. Because the fusions are composites of both characters. So any trait that their components have, the fusions would logically have access to it as well.

So if Goku can't go Ultra Instinct, then obviously the same isn't true for Gogeta or Vegetto. Conversely, if Goku could use it at will, then the fusions would have access to it.

There's really no ambiguity here.

The only exception here being Gotenks' Super Saiyan 3, but I don't think the opposite has ever been the case.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Sep 26th 2019 at 8:58:29 AM

But Ultra Instinct is treated pretty differently from most other "techniques" and "transformations" as well.

Hence it being said or implied that Vegeta can't do it in the first place.

It doesn't matter if Vegeta can't do it.

If Goku can do it then any Fusion he's apart should logically be able to access it.

Vegeta can't do the Kaio-Ken yet Vegito can I think. Wait did Vegito use the Kaio-Ken or am I remembering wrong?

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 26th 2019 at 6:25:34 AM

My point is that I don't know if things like Kaioken or Instant Transmission are comparable to Ultra Instinct, as it's described and explained in the series, but whatever.

If it requires a certain mental state, the presence of Vegeta would be an obstacle to using it.

Yeah.

Eh UI will eventually lose its "uniqueness".

Its only a matter of time.

I imagine Gogeta/Vegetto would be able to use it, just not as effectively as Goku by himself.

Edited by LordVatek on Sep 26th 2019 at 9:52:21 AM

Neither Vegito or Gogeta have ever used the Kaioken. Though whether that's due to the Vegeta half making it difficult or just because they've never needed to (Vegito never even went beyond regular Super Saiyan because he already had the fight completely in the bag) is not something that's been made clear.

You know, I think we've brought this up before, but I kinda dislike that Ultra Instinct has a Power up part to it.

These guys already have more than enough energy. I like how Ultra Instinct basically gives you super Spider-Sense, in that it lets you react with far greater efficiency than previously via making moving without thinking. I mean, that's pure Spiderman closes his eyes and just lets his Spider-Sense guide him type stuff, and he was doing years before the fight with Mysterio introduced it to the mainstream.

These guys are already ridiculously strong, and the amount of hoops Toriyama has to jump through to find more powerful opponents. Ultra Instinct didn't need to make Goku more powerful, because without that part, it already made him stronger, if you get my drift.

Well...Ultra Instinct was literally just compared to Super Saiyan last manga chapter; in that while Super Saiyan requires rage to function, Ultra Instinct requires a calm peace of mind to access.

The only reason Vegeta likely can't use it is because...well...he's Vegeta.

But that doesn't preclude that Gogeta or Vegetto cannot use it. Look at it this way, we've seen fusions be able to have access to any technique their components can use (Vegetto does use Kaioken in an episode of Heroes, and has it in the data files of Xenoverse 2), but never the opposite.

There's more evidence to suggest they can use their techniques than they cannot.

As for Ultra Instinct being treated like a transformation to get stronger...well...Dragon Ball is gonna Dragon Ball. I really don't like how it's treated as just another power up transformation though rather than just a state of mind but whatever.

Well, if you're going to bring Heroes into it, it certainly seems like Ultra Instinct Goku is stronger than SSB Vegetto there, given their respective performances against Cumber (although Cumber's power level makes no goddamn sense anyway, he's as strong as SSB KK Vegetto just in base, then SSG Goku can put up a fight against him in Golden Oozaru, then he's overpowered by SS4 Vegetto in SS3). The only good thing about Cumber was that his Super Saiyan hair color is orange, that was neat. Oh, and the bear claws made of shadow.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 26th 2019 at 8:11:11 AM

....honestly, you won it right there.

Someone should put that in their signature as a reminder to all of us.

I ain't say shit about power levels; just that Vegetto could use the technique itself. Heroes is a whole different ball game with power levels.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Sep 26th 2019 at 11:21:20 AM

It was very satisfying to see Golden Cooler beat up Cumber.

Without context this sentence would come across as an actual golden cooler somehow beating up a cucumber.

Super Saiyan God Trunks is a thing now.

Edited by Cortez on Sep 27th 2019 at 4:50:15 AM

I actually would have preferred if Pan got it.

At least she's had some form of Super Saiyan then.

honestly Trunks going super saiyan god in the Zamasu arc would have made more sense then super saiyan Rage

Honestly, part of me wishes Super Saiyan Blue just wasn't a thing at this point.

In the film version of Battle of Gods, Goku is able to channel most of the power of Super Saiyan God in his normal Super Saiyan form, and then when Beerus tries to blow up the Earth Goku can push himself to his limits and go Super Saiyan God again for a brief moment.

I wish they would have just. Kept that. Base form, Super Saiyan, God.

Blue looks bad, and is bad.

I think Super Saiyan Rage should have been the same as that Super Saiyan 1 with Godly Ki form that Goku used against Beerus after Super Saiyan God ran out. Just explain that form as being like an incomplete version of Super Saiyan Blue.

I mean it be easy to explain just how Zamasu was dicking around with Trunks to figure out his new body's saiyan powers

the constant fights with Black exposed Trunks to Godly ki

Trunks is on the verge of turning full god he just doesn't have it quite yet

I agree on Blue (although I like how the manga handled its slow development) but I'll do you one better and say I wish God didn't exist either.

Well I disagree since I think Blue looks cool :P

I mean. I love Battle of Gods a lot.

Rewriting it around Super Saiyan God not being there.

I dunno.