Manga/Dragon Ball

I'd thought of the simpler idea of just turning the humans into Androids, but it opens up a pretty big can of worms like whether that could be used to make stronger characters EVEN STRONGER

The limits you'd have to put on such a thing would be silly. Okay it only works on Earthlings... not biologically compatible races like Saiyans, nope, and not on half-Earthlings, nor 3/4 Earthlings like Pan, also it doesn't work on 100% Earthlings that were reincarnated from Majin Boo, oh but it does work on Earthlings with a teeny bit of 3rd eye alien ancestry, and even though Bulma now understands the tech it will never ever be able to be adapted to anyone else. Nope.

The fact that they have the gimmicks is why I prefer to, if not eliminate, then limit and constrain the escalation.

...For Cell more than Buu, because as irritated and frustrated as I get with the absorption, I do like Fat Buu, base Super Buu and Kid Buu. Honestly, being the God-killing abomination he is gives Buu a little bit of leeway in my book.

...Like.

Hmm.

I can accept the escalation with Beerus but not Omega Shenron, because Beerus is more fun and interesting than Omega Shenron? Basically?

I'm a partisan bitch, basically?

...What even is Omega Shenron's personality? Because all I can think of is "Negative Energy"

Escalation, when done well, and earned, I do prefer to the gimmick bosses like Cell, Buu or Zamasu. Or Hit.

And, honestly. Like, it took a lot of "Ka Ka Ka Ka Kachi Daze" for me to put Jiren in the "Freeza and Beerus" pile instead of the "Omega Shenron" pile.

...I still prefer the gimmick fights to the "Omega Shenrons" of the franchise any day.

But giving the gimmick fights even more escalation, Freeza levels of escalation is stupid.

Zamasu's already immortal, you don't need to make him stronger than two Beeruses on top of that.

...Yeah, Cell and Buu arcs still have escalation as written, but without the numbers we can imagine for ourselves how much, and I'm personally inclined to shrink it.

And we're already told by the characters that there wasn't much escalation past Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, so. There's already some constraint there.

If we go by the "Super Saiyan 3 four times stronger than Super Saiyan 2" thing, then. Kid Buu and Fat Buu are "only" about four times stronger than Cell Games Gohan.

Edited by unnoun on Dec 10th 2018 at 7:40:47 AM

I dont think Goku or Vegeta would go for the whole android thing, anyway. It is neither training nor does it mesh with the concept of saiyan pride.

I'm not sure if DB has the biggest escalation problem in shonen but it's up there. I mean, doesn't knowing King Piccolo was a gnat in comparison to even some ordinary civilians of his species kinda devalue his arc in retrospect? A little?

Edited by HamburgerTime on Dec 10th 2018 at 6:47:10 AM

That solves that problem.

I believe some asshole named Handsome Rob brought it up a few times, but who cares about him and his incredible good looks anyway.

Edit: In regards to the Escalation issue, I think it comes down to Toriyama only knowing one way to make the next villain a threat: higher Power Level.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Dec 10th 2018 at 5:49:15 AM

... Could King Piccolo have fused with his kids?

What if he spat up a bunch of eggs then fused with all of them and Kami?

Manga Zamasu didn't have a higher power level and they still needed to erase a multiverse to kill the bastard.

There are ways.

Edited by unnoun on Dec 10th 2018 at 7:51:42 AM

it doesn't come close to solving that problem. Goku drank god water, Vegeta abused zenkai and turned to badidi for power. The android powers don't exclude training either.

Then you've got Gohan. Pan. Piccolo. Oob. All people with incentive to become stronger who would massively outstrip the humans.

Edited by Saiga on Dec 10th 2018 at 10:51:36 PM

Okay, I can buy Gero's android cocktail working on Saiyans and Earthlings but not Namekians.

I only think it's devalued if it's an explicit retcon or if the story goes out of its way to make a previous conflict look pointless. Like, for example, the Saiyan arc is definitely devalued by the Freeza arc due to both those things. One, it's retconned so that Vegeta's not the strongest in the universe or even close. Two, we're shown that even if Vegeta did win he'd just get effortlessly crushed by Freeza.

Piccolo Daimao doesn't feel like that because no one was going to stop his rampage on Earth until after he'd fulfilled his purpose and slaughtered everyone anyway. Thanks to the plot of the Zamasu arc, the Buu arc also doesn't feel this way, even though Beerus is much stronger than Buu. If Buu had won, he would've killed Beerus as an extension of killing Shin. The Cell arc doesn't feel devalued, because even though Buu and Beerus are stronger than Cell, the former is sealed and the latter is killable, so stopping Cell still had meaning (he could easily kill Kaioshin, and could probably take Dabra too... the only question is if Babidi can mind control him).

...I'd actually say Freeza was devalued pretty heavily both by him being aware that he lived in the shadow of Buu and Beerus and the fact that Babidi was rocking around with a guy dozens of times stronger than Freeza for the last 300 years.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 10th 2018 at 4:54:57 AM

He's the easiest one to exclude, sure, but still adds to a really long list of exceptions you have to make.

Setting him aside, the others are actually a bigger problem.

Wait, Shin was surprised Babidi had Dabura, did he really have Dabura for 300 years?

Because damn, that's another for the "Shin sucks" pile.

Dabra mentioned checking Earth over 300 years ago, so yeah. That's why he thinks that humans are weaklings and that there are no notable powers on the planet.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 10th 2018 at 4:57:07 AM

Shin was also afraid of Yakon for some reason.

Wait, I thought that meant Babidi checked and Dabura, as a lieutenant/aide/confidant partial to Babidi's whims, rants and thoughts was aware of that, but.

You mean, Dabura was there with him?

Dabra says "When I had Earth searched 300 years ago, there wasn't anyone as powerful as this." Maybe he did that on his own initiative when he was king of the Makai? But the implication there is that he was searching for Babidi.

I wonder who this freaky goat man is, and why supposedly only Grand Supreme Kai can defeat him.

...Wait.

Wait, hold on.

Who would Dabura have had search for him?

Because he might be Babidi's 2nd in command, but, presumably because of the way the magic works, Babidi always seems to give the orders directly? No chain of command.

So. If he did it under Babidi's control, that would contradict how Babidi's control seemingly works?

...Also, is it me, or doesn't "300 years ago" line up with King Piccolo?

Was King Piccolo working for Dabura?

*puts on tinfoil hat*

Yamu can still order around Spopovich.

Yamu is literally not a character.

True, but Toriyama is more than willing to ignore that.

Despite Goku being pragmatic or willing to take a free power up in other arcs, now he's like nuh uh! Only training!

If he's willing to forgo that, it's because Toriyama wants the plot to go in a certain way.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Dec 10th 2018 at 6:15:30 AM

...super Saiyan god...

...I mean, they still reported back to Babidi directly, and not Dabura, though.

It seemingly wasn't:

Babidi might not micro manage, but he doesn't exactly delegate a lot either.

Mostly he seems to give an order, and then ignore you while you get it done. Especially if it's not actually very important. Which Yamu and Spopovich and their job weren't. It didn't become important until they came back with Gohan's energy. And the Supreme Kai.

Which he hated!

Edited by unnoun on Dec 10th 2018 at 8:21:27 AM

What are Yamu and Spopovich's name puns by the way, anybody know?

Super Saiyan God was a desperate situation. He'd already tried everything else, and they'd explicitly shut down fusion before hand.

Plus, Goku wasn't trying to become Super Saiyan God at first, but find out what it was in order to satisfy Beerus. It's only when they learned what it was that they decided to do it in order to give themselves a chance.

Should be noted PSSB is just treated as normal SSB in the manga, just to put that to bed.