Manga/Dragon Ball

So is Gine related to Broly's mom or something?

Well this has never been a franchise with the most varied faces or haircuts.

Especially in regards to Saiyan’s, they are all starting to look like alike.

It be amusing if Goku is Broly’s cousin in this continuity.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 21st 2018 at 2:39:49 AM

Toriyama has a distinct style that easily recognizable yet it still suffers from Only Six Faces.

It really does, and it's only gotten worse.

Somebody find a cure.

So chapter 41.

Right off the bat, I like that they mention that Goku's UI is also making him takes the hits better rather than just being about dodging. Full UI Goku being emotionless is fitting, it makes more sense that the panel of him gut punching Jiren is from reaching full UI.

Goku vs Jiren has pretty nice choreography and gets most of the chapter dedicated to it. I like that they didn't go as far as the anime and try to paint UI Goku as the 'winner' despite him failing to finish the job, that was really forced and rather pathetic (especially Kuririn's annoying outburst insisting Goku won) because it didn't change the result. Here, the shortcoming of full UI is pointed out upfront and they don't try to use it as a shock twist. I liked Whis' rather nonchalant reaction being used to signify the end of that exchange.

So now we see why Vegeta's still in it. Like in the anime, he teams up with Goku against Jiren. But here it makes much more thematic sense as it harkens back to Whis' training and the lessons he was trying to teach them back in RF - it's good that there is now a pay-off to that, as that was omitted from Toriyama's original draft of the Zamasu battle and this feels like an appropriate time for it. I also like that Goku and Vegeta are working together effectively here, instead of being out of sync in the anime - as amusing as that was, it didn't make sense for Jiren to be thrown out by that and it went against the ideas set up and taught by Whis. I also like that Toyotarou has tied this into Jiren's backstory and the Pride Troopers' own teamwork, using it to contrast Jiren's solitary methods from Goku and Vegeta.

Speaking of, wow, we actually got Jiren's wish in this version. And his master has a name! Jiren's motivation is much better here, becoming obsessed with being worthy of his master is what pushed him down the wrong path and blinded him. No cliche anime villainry or Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy, but his wish is still selfish and shows his shortcomings. Very glad that we didn't have him stupidly try to kill Goku's friends, or for Goku to go on about Nakama Power for that matter.

I hadn't liked the previous two chapters so much but this was solid. Toyotarou did a really good job covering these beats compared to the anime, and showed pretty clearly that Jiren didn't HAVE to be so antagonistic to have a character. I'm still interested in what the future will hold for the manga being so different, here UI didn't have such a negative side-effect and Whis mentions that Goku needs more training for it, so that makes it sound like it won't be that far out of reach in the future.

Just read it now myself.

I admit, Goku and Vegeta actually working together (and it being a payoff to the earlier talk about how they needed to cooperate) does work better. Especially since it's Vegeta who suggests it, since that's a massive bit of Character Development on his part. I do slightly prefer Goku actually winning in the anime, even if his conveniently overtaxing his body at the last moment is annoying and another way to keep him from getting a win, but both versions do acknowledge that UI is taxing, and both have Jiren outlasting it in different ways.

....Meh. I said I was done comparing versions. I'm just gonna try and enjoy the ride.

I'm curious about how or whether any future materials will follow more from the manga than the anime.

Like. Neither version is perfect, and I find I most disagree with the idea that one is all good and the other all bad. There's bits I like of both.

...And bits I dislike of both, specifically the fucking Potara retcon in particular.

But still.

...I wonder, who exactly most controls the rights of Dragon Ball? Is it Toei or Bandai Namco or. Jump, maybe?

See, this is how it should be. You are truly wise unnoun.

The biggest bit of bullshit in the entire franchise. There were so many other ways to keep Earring Fusion from being too dominant, but they went with that. I hate it. You truly get me... which I imagine fills you with unending dread.

Like, it would still make Elder Kai dumb, but if you just make it so destroying the earings disrupts the fusion. It would at least make Potara different from the Metamoran dance.

When they're both governed by time limits, but one of the time limits lasts longer, youve basically made it so that one is "the same but better" and the other is "the same but worse".

It's just so pointless from a narrative standpoint.

Or, fuck, give Whis the power to undo it. Maybe after Zamasu is erased by Zen'O Vegerot/Vegetto starts getting cocky because of hoe much stronger he feels. New bullshit powers out of nowhere is one of Whis's things.

...Or fat Buu could absorb them but we dont know if Fat Buu can absorb people anymore, and also the air in him might not be as bad as Super Buu.

Like, I'm a little mad about there being a retcon in the first place, just use the dance and have Gogeta vs Merged Zamasu.

Like, fuck, didnt Toriyama do an interview where he mentioned that the Buu Saga dance isnt the only Metamoran dance, just the only one Goku learned in Otherworld, and other dances have different traits, attributes and characteristics?

Just say they learned a new dance that mixes their clothes and lasts an hour instead of making a vest and lasting 30 minutes/less time if they use more power.

But if you absolutely have to use the Potaras because of how popular Vegetto was and you have no artistic integrity and are a talentless, money, approval and fame-obsessed hack, Akira Toriyama. There are still less completely irredeemably stupid possible retcons.

Rob, if I have a problem with you, it's that you used to be mostly normal and serious and even appropriately funny, but now you keep constantly trying too hard and failing to be funny; which is mostly upsetting because I know you are and can be so much better than that.

Edited by unnoun on Oct 21st 2018 at 12:00:42 PM

...Wow. Thanks.

Edit: And yeah, the retcon about the sudden time limit gets to me as well. There's essentially no difference between dance and earring fusion, and when it comes to that, it would have been better to use the former.

In fact, I kinda wish Toyotarou hadn't suggested it in the first place since the idea just ended up wasted.

Then again, what I really wish is that Toriyama hadn't destroyed Trunks' timeline in the first place. That was truly one of his worst moves.

Edit 2: Though now that I think about it, Toriyama does seem to be putting more limits on the techniques he gives Goku. While it's irking that even getting new forms doesn't let him win fights anymore, we are seeing that he's reaching a point where how he can get not only has an upper limit, but also how long his new powers last or how much they take out of him.

Ever since Super Saiyan 3, Goku hasn't been able to rely on just using his latest power up and winning. He's also constantly fighting battles against time, and the drawbacks are more apparent.

Actually, it happened as early as with the Kaioken, where he could only power up so much before he hurt himself. It became codified with SSJ 3 where he realized it was a massive Ki guzzler.

Now since then, the original Super Saiyan God ran out, and while Blue is more efficient, it's still not a game changer. Even Ultra Instinct has the drawback of being either too stressful or too tiring depending on the medium. From now on, Goku will have to take this into account when he uses these powers.

So there's at least a little tension there when he uses them in ''can he beat the enemy before he gets too exhausted / hurts himself too much / etc?

If they could learn to use that properly, it'd be good drama.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Oct 21st 2018 at 10:46:13 AM

This is too serious. Clearly this Potara retcon has upset the balance of someone's mind.

Potara fusion was already better, the downside would only matter if the fus-ees had important relationships...oh.

Vegetto's personality is already a bit worse than either Goku's or Vegeta's individually. Brings out the worst in both of them.

Making it permanent would exacerbate every bit of dumb shit they do.

I think Super did that enough on its own...

That's what they say, but it's never really been proven.

Now that I think about it, I can kinda get why they added in the limit.

I mean think about it: sure there's a way to separate them via Porunga, but that's only after the battle. In an actual fight, there's no tension (unless the opponent is stronger, and that gets used a lot). But by adding the time-limit, they now have to fight against that and their opponent. It's the same as when Goku is using anyone of his stamina sucking body wrecking techniques: can he win before the strain becomes too much.

That being said, it really makes you realize that Toriyama should not have come up with the fusion is permanent concept in the first place for the earrings, as it ultimately bit him in the ass.

It can't be helped. There was never supposed to be anymore Dragonball after the Buu Saga, and he never even planned to bring back Potarra originally, so of course things come off as sloppy, but I can see why he did it.

Earring fusion should have been more stable though, even if it would have resulted in the same but better. Because with the caveat that higher powers eat up time faster, now it's just ''exactly the same with no real differences except for clothes.

Or the process of fusing could be the problem and if fusion "needs" to save the day it can be the last thing before being undone.

Or it just isn't strong enough to win anyway, even though people would probably call BC on that.

But thems the breaks.

I mean, yeah, maybe the permanent fusion thing shouldn't have been a thing in the first place.

But it was. So.

Anyway, even if Vegetto lasted forever, I could be wrong but I'm not sure he'd be any better at killing the immortal Zamasu?

Especially what with Zamasu just merging with the entire multiverse of that timeline when his body gets destroyed.

That's a very good point. Plus narratively speaking, Zamasu was actually Trunks' enemy, and he should have always been the one to strike the final blow.

The Immortality was always a massive issue, and Toriyama did come up with a good way to get around it via the Mafuuba...which he promptly abandoned for the sake of a joke (And now I realize I forgot how it went down in the manga; did they forget the tags there too).

Basically, how it should have gone was Black being tag-teamed by Goku and Vegeta like Toriyama had originally planned (or maybe fusing into Vegetto because Goku Black just got too strong for them to fight individually), while Trunks succeeds in imprisoning Future Zamasu with the Mafuuba.

That's my thoughts on things. Any one else got an idea for how it should have gone?

I mean, Present Zeno already promised to do a tournament for Goku, they really didn't need the second one.

@Rob: IIRC, Goku didn't forget the tag in the Manga. He just grabbed the wrong one (Actually being a coupon) by mistake.

Oh. Well it's still kinda wasting a good idea, and it's still Goku screwing up to escalate things, but at least he didn't do something as stupid as forget it completely.

But yeah, there was already a good way to win the fight and he ignored it. If what happened had actually been funny, I'd forgive it, but...

I mean, if I were writing it, Vegerot would just keep fighting and fighting and, yeah, he'd be knocking Merged Zamasu around. Outclassing him in strength and speed and everything. But not actually hurting or damaging him any.

Maybe Trunks would be on the sidelines, trying to make a tag together with Mai or something. Calligraphy jokes.

...I don't know any calligraphy jokes, or Japanese language, but. Eh.

Eventually, Vegerot would get tired out. Maybe actually injured by Zamasu, maybe not.

Then Trunks Mafubas Zamasu.

Everyone says goodbye and it's happily ever after.

Then future Zeno shows up anyway and erases the Trunks timeline. Maybe a cut to Goku's summon gift thing from Zeno, sitting on the ground where he left it or dropped it or something, I do love me a good "Shaggy Dog" Story.

But, because I'm me, and I like Xenoverse and Online a lot, then we cut to a view of Chronoa, with Mai and Trunks staring at her and looking back and forth between looking at her and watching a crystal ball in confusion and horror, as she sighs and rips up a scroll, causing the Future Zeno to pause and then slowly start to be erased himself. She digs out the box of time rings and takes one of them, which now looks different from the others, more dull, and crushes it in her hand. Maybe with some magic or seeming effort on her part, but either way. The Future Zeno suddenly pops and gets erased completely on the crystal ball screen thing, and then the feed cuts out and goes to her Godtube page, and it's the tackiest, most poorly web-designed thing.

Like, the main video is probably her twerking her shitty little loli ass at the camera or something. And twerking badly, even.

Edited by unnoun on Oct 21st 2018 at 2:23:22 PM

YES!

NO! WHY!? WHY!?

...I don't think she can do that...but hey, I'd be fine with being wrong. Plus, after her leniency over Trunks helping Future Gohan, I could see her wanting to do something like that for him.

...

I'm curious as to how you even twerk badly, but for now I agree that maybe just trying the Mafuuba again on Merged Zamasu would have worked. It's basically getting everything in that needs to be in. Fusion against Fusion; the return of Vegetto (which I have to acknowledge I would have wanted, and if he didn't show up, I'd have complained about Toriyama missing a golden opportunity, so I guess I'm unappeasable sometimes), but still allows Trunks to be the hero that he should be narratively speaking.

And now, I can't get Badly twerking Chronoa out of my head.

I guess normal ass-shaking counts as bad twerking.

@unnoun: Lemurs are tailed primates that are never refered to as monkeys. And apes come from tailed ancestors, and not every tailess primate is called an ape (Babary macaques, lorises...).

This covers the issue better than I could, but, in any case, apes are old-world monkeys, humans are African apes, and lemurs and tarsiers are neither monkey nor ape.

I mean, calling Saiyans lemurs would be worse.

Lemur King Sun Wukong.

And anyway, no modern apes have tails. Was sorta my point. Modern primates with tails being designated apes isn't really a thing, so the Saiyans getting that designation is wrong.

...Pretty sure the tailed ancestors of modern apes aren't designated apes either? Pretty sure that gets to the blurry points where apes and other, still tailed primates diverge.

That timeline's Bulma was already dead. Nothing of any value was left in it.

I mean, frankly, for the anime version, there still being mortals and kids living between when Trunks goes back to the past and when he comes back is a little dumb and doesn't make sense anyway. Goku Black was having a little Saiyan fun fighting Trunks, but with Trunks gone. Why bother delaying. Just slaughter the rest and be done with it.

I mean, near as I can tell.

Like, "Universe" 6 and "Universe" 7, and all the "universes" seem to be connected. Spatially.

Like, the Universe 6 and 7 tournament is on a planet "between" the two universes, and then at the end of the Tournament of Power, in the anime anyway, all the Universes that are brought back look up and see Super Shenron in the sky. So.

The time rings are all the result of a new parallel timeline being created. About. 4 or 5 maybe?

The timelines and time rings seem to be connected.

...Near as I can tell, there's only the one timeline version of Chronoa?

Like. I think that's what being Supreme Kai of Time means.

And also taking care of Toki Toki the bird and the Time Nest at the. Center. Of time.

Each Zen'O seems to be the Lord of Everything for a specific Multiverse, but each Multiverse seems to be. Spatial. Not temporal. Fucking with timelines makes a new Zen'O.

Zen'O can erase a multiverse except for himself, what I would write is Chronoa erasing an entire timeline and multiverse including the Zen'O still in it.

Because fuck there being two Zen'Os, honestly.

...I'd write and draw Chronoa being stressed and nervous and worried, because erasing any Zen'Os is a thing she probably really shouldn't be doing, and is expending a lot of resources and energy.

Like, she has the time ring for Trunks's timeline in a magical sphere in between her hands and she's pumping more and more energy into it even as it sparks and lashes back out at her. That sort of thing.

I'd also write a detail where Trunks and Mai were the only living beings left in that timeline anyway.

I'll be honest, I would have given Trunks his happy ending after 17, 18, and Imperfect Cell.

But if you're going to fuck his timeline again? Then go all the way and fuck it all the way.

That's the one thing about the ending of the Goku Black arc I can sorta see and agree with and like narratively. Or at least respect.

If you're going to go ahead and ruin the happy ending to that Android Saga story, don't half-ass it.

Which, like, Whis sending them to a timeline identical to their own does.

Edited by unnoun on Oct 21st 2018 at 3:01:47 PM