Foreign Troper
Scholz so far has been pretty much how I expected him to be - milquetoast to the extreme.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Well, the way Merkel conducted her energy policy will certainly leave a stain on her legacy. I think even Obama urged her to build one LNG terminal as a precaution but she refused.
Although I do not think that all of her actions regarding Ukraine were as bad as they are now made out to be. Minsk II was flawed, but it could be argued that it bought the Ukrainian army time to reorganize itself. Whether or not Russia or Ukraine benefited more from this is something historians will probably argue about similar to Munich 1938.
Another part of the truth is that a lot of Germans were wrong about Russia, including the media. The SPIEGEL of all places received a lot of criticism when it demanded that Putin "needed to be stopped" after the Dutch airplane was shot down. Not to mention how Putinversteher were allowed to appear in talk shows up until the eve of February 24th. Their books became bestsellers. A lot of Germans did not want to see the truth or did not care for it. There are still traces of the false equivalence left that has been prevalent in the discoirse ober Russia and NATO when Gregor Gysi ( who was more honest about his failure to appreciate Putin's nature than some of his fellow party members) still compare the NATO intervention in Yugoslavia with Russia's intervention in the Syrian Civil War.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The Green party certainly had the most realistic view on Russia of all German parties. Notably Habeck demanded during the election campaign that Germany should supply Ukraine with defensive weapons after visiting the Donbass and getting a better picture of what was happening. He got shouted down of course. However it is also part of the truth that they did not really offer any viable alternatives for Russian gas. They also villified "dirty fracking gas" yet deemed gas as a better alternative to coal due to its' impact on the climate.
Still, in hindsight I'd really wish that the Green party had nominated Habeck as chancellor candidate and won the election. Things might be easier if neither of the two parties that are responsible for the historical failure that is German's Russia policy were in charge right now.
Edited by Zarastro on Apr 15th 2022 at 12:55:05 PM
Granted, in many way nobody saw Ukraine war happeing all the sudden as they did, people did see Russia a sort of pragmatic evil who is bad but not stupid bad.
Make me wonder if China will do the same.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Meanwhile, it looks like another German word made it into the international vocabulary.
German term 'Putinversteher' goes international
The term combines the name of Russia's president Vladimir Putin with the German noun "Versteher," which means "understander."
With its own English-language Wikipedia page, the word joins other German terms that have come into use in the English language over recent years.
One prominent example is "Lügenpresse," a slur popular in the Nazi era that translates roughly to "lying press," used to discredit media reports that do not align with the user's ideology. In recent years, the term made a comeback under the far-right Alternative for Germany party and by Donald Trump supporters in the US.
When "Versteher" is added to the end of a word in German, it's typically done to indicate a mix of irony and flattery, as a recent Economist article points out. For example, a "Frauenversteher" (Women understander) typically describes a man who boasts excessively about his relations with women.
Likewise, a "Putinversteher" is often used to describe someone who expresses empathy for Russian president Putin.
The term, which was already in use following Russia's annexation of Crimea, typically has a negative connotation — and particularly since the invasion of Ukraine on February 24.
When Russia launched its attack on Ukraine, people who could be described as "Putinversteher" — including prominent German politicians and talk show pundits — would for example point out that NATO's eastward expansion should be understood as a real threat to Russia, or would compare the invasion of Ukraine to the United States' 2003 invasion of Iraq, which was another illegal war.
It's not to say that such "Putinversteher" (which is also the plural) support the current violence; but rather, as Wikipedia puts it, their attitude towards President Putin and the way he is leading Russia might involve some sort of "Yes, but you have to understand Putin's position."
Also widespread among "Putinversteher" is a strategy widely known as "whataboutism," or deflecting criticism of Russia by pointing to different abuses committed in the West. 'Putinversteher' across the political spectrum
The sentiment can be found across the political spectrum in Germany, and particularly among populist parties — though some politicians who were labeled as "Putinversteher" following the annexation of Crimea may have since backtracked or at least stopped stating their support publicly.
Like many of Europe's far-right political parties, members of Germany's far-right party Af D have maintained close ties with Russia in recent years. Following the invasion of Ukraine, however, the party struggled to adopt a single position.
Former co-leader of Germany's Left Party, Sahra Wagenknecht, was also renowned for trying to justify Putin's actions: "Maybe we should just take Russia seriously and respect that it has security interests," she said for instance on a talk show in February, days before the invasion of Ukraine. English-language writers use it
Before the term obtained its Wikipedia entry, and before Russia's current war on Ukraine, the word "Putinversteher" was already used in various English-language articles.
In a January 2021 article published on Riddle — a political analysis website that focuses on Russia — political scientist and historian Dmitiri Stratievski looked into whether Armin Laschet, who served as the leader of the Christian Democratic Union (Chancellor Merkel's center-right party), should be seen as a "Merkelian Putinversteher" for his support of Germany's reliance on Russian gas.
Paul Gregory, a professor of Economics at Houston University who has a blog on Forbes, used the term in the title of an article in April 2014: "Empathizing With The Devil: How Germany's Putin-Verstehers Shield Russia." It details how a number of top-level German politicians have sided with Russia despite its government's poor human rights record and the annexation of Crimea.
Gregory cites former German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder, who led the country from 1998 to 2005, as one of the most "egregious Putinverstehers."
Schröder, who masterminded the Nord Stream gas pipeline project together with Putin while he was still chancellor, later became head of the supervisory board at the Russian state energy company, Rosneft.
He is considered to be a personal friend of the Russian president.
Even as Russia invaded Ukraine, Schröder refrained from making comments that could incriminate the Russian regime, so much so that all employees in his office resigned.
In mid-March, Schröder even flew to Moscow and spoke with the Russian president in person.
But as new atrocities in the war in Ukraine are reported daily — such as reports of targeted killings of citizens and mass graves in Bucha — calls to sanction Schröder himself have been growing in Germany, and the arguments typically used by "Putinversteher" have definitely lost their credibility.
"It's not to say that such "Putinversteher" (which is also the plural) support the current violence; but rather, as Wikipedia puts it, their attitude towards President Putin and the way he is leading Russia might involve some sort of "Yes, but you have to understand Putin's position." "
So that is the position I have seen a lot of latin american user in facebook.
thanks germany, again you have encapuse everything in a simple word.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
The power of compound words, especially when you just stick the components together without any separation (as in German or Dutch). In English, you'd keep the components as separate words, while in a language like Spanish or French, you'd need extra words to link them.
The Best Worst Psychonaut
'Putin Understander' makes me think of those fanfic writers who give horrible characters the Draco in Leather Pants treatment. 'I understand vladdy-poots, he just needs a hug and some more territory!' Oy.
"If you think like a child, you will do a child's work."
Yeah, is pretty much that, they are not Putin sympathizer per se in that "they did nothing wrong" but they treat him as rational actor that must be listen and understood. even when he does nothing but treath of force.
You can see the same behavor with many left who are soft with china not matter what.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Anka Aquila
Yeah, it's a type of Draco in Leather Pants in real life.
Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Although in this case, imagine Harry being the son of Voldemort and Draco the son of parents who were murdered by the Dark Lord. And their first meeting consisted of Draco being very friendly towards Harry, warmly telling him that he bears no ill will against him and that he hopes that they will be friends in the future. This might lead to some confusion later when Draco turns out to be a killer himself, but Harry still feels conflicted about acting against him.
I am refering to the speech Putin held in German! in the German Bundestag in 2001. In his speech he notably used metaphors from Gorbachev that strongly resonated in Germany (building a European house together) and moved a lot pf influential Germans (who were in most cases the sons and daughters of the Hitler-generation).
In hindsight a piece of pure propaganda genius! You can still see politicians refering to this speech when they talk about their positive image of him and the hopes of Russian-European cooperatiom.
Edited by Zarastro on Apr 15th 2022 at 6:01:55 PM
Discontent Grows in Berlin over Chancellor's Ukraine Response
Germany's chancellor is coming under increasing pressure for his restrained Ukraine policies – in Brussels, but also in Berlin. A revolt has even begun within his own coalition, with calls growing louder for the country to supply Kyiv with heavy weapons.
Perhaps Scholz should stop worrying about how the pacifist wing of the SPD might think of supplying Ukraine with heavy weapons and more about how Germany (and his own responsibility) will look like if Russia does end up gaining controle over larger parts of the Ukraine with all the atrocities that might go along with this.
It's clear that a lot of people are struggling with the fact that sometimes weapons save lives (and conversely, that lack of weapons kills people).
Granted, this logic often becomes a justification for ludicrous arms races and overuse, but sometimes you got to remember it.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
A procrastination in of itself
Yeah, people are having to confront the fact that inaction can end up causing more harm than action, even if that action does cause direct harm.
I stand by my theory that people may actually be better primed to learn that lesson after COVID, where we saw first hand the horrific death toll from doing nothing compared to targeted actions that potentially caused limited harm but generally prevented greater harm.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TBH, I'm more sympathetic to German wishy-washiness on Ukraine than I am just about any other nation's, because while there is certainly a powerful Russian Oil Lobby the reluctance when it comes to arms supplies in particular is so clearly born from an idealistic renunciation of the country's own militaristic past. The world doesn't work like the majority of German politicians believe, but it'd be a better world if it did, so I can't quite resent them for that.
I do not think that the majority of German politicians are unrealistic about how the world works. They were blindsided by Russia's invasion true, but so were many others. By now you have politicians from the Green party (which was born from the Friedensbewegung in the 1980s) demanding unisono that Germany should send heavy weapons. I would also not question Scholz' integrity. The problem seems to be his party. People tend to forget how vulnerable his own position within the SPD is, despite his election victory. The party leadership was elected in direct opposition to him, and there are many influential people who oppose his plans rearmament like Mützenich. But that should not take priority over taking decisions that could help preserving lifes and prevent further aggressions.
It is nevertheless really getting frustrating when prominent German pacifists are still repeating lines like "Guns do not create peace, only negotiations do". This is honestly bordering on covert support of Putin's war.
Edited by Zarastro on Apr 19th 2022 at 2:30:23 PM
Only English news source I found on it so far:
German civil society calls on Scholz to stop Ukraine arms deliveries
In the letter, the signatories call for a halt to arms deliveries to Ukraine. The letter states that Germany and other NATO countries have made themselves a party to the war by delivering weapons.
"Thus, Ukraine has become a battlefield for a conflict between NATO and Russia over the security order in Europe, which has been escalating for years," German newspaper Berliner Zeitung quoted the letter.
According to the letter, the refusal of violence remains "the only realistic and humane alternative to a long and exhaustive war," with the first and most important step being a halt on all arms deliveries to Ukraine. The latter also called for an immediate ceasefire.
They also called on the German government, the EU, and NATO countries for a halt in arms deliveries to Ukrainian troops, urging the Kiev government to end "military resistance in exchange for guarantees of negotiations on a ceasefire and political resolution. Moscow's proposals on possible neutrality, agreement on the recognition of Crimea, and referendums on the future status of the Donbass republics, which have already been discussed by [Ukrainian] President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, give a real opportunity to do so," the letter read.
I guess it's some of the first explicit confirmation we have that there's been a behind-the-scenes row about all of this and maybe the conflict is beginning to run into political inertia.
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
I'd actually love to know how many of those signatories either have ties to Russia or to Russia-friendly organisations - and how many of them are "just" morons.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Apr 23rd 2022 at 6:01:03 PM
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
Here's a list of the signataries.
I would like to know that too...
Personaly i thing extereme pacifism only little less digusting than the oposite.
Edited by Risa123 on Apr 23rd 2022 at 2:07:27 AM
A procrastination in of itself
I don’t think it is a theme pacifism, notice that they’re not combining it with a call or Germany to disarm/leave NATO. By the sound of it, it’s very much a “Pacifism for thee but not for me” letter.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
They were calling for arms salles to stop that sounds like pacifism to me. Honestly that pacifism comment was mostly me wenting my belief that extreme pacifism is just as problematic as militarism.
Edited by Risa123 on Apr 23rd 2022 at 2:17:18 AM
A procrastination in of itself
Having weapons yourself while saying that other people can’t have them isn’t pacifism, it’s more akin to colonialism considering the target.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Going by what they write in the letter, their arguments are somewhat different. They argue thwt Ukraine has no hope of winning the war, that more arms would pointlessly prolong the conflict which in return would cause more suffering and embolden the Russians to act even more brutal.
They also argue that a prolonged conflict could escalate and cause WWIII.
The problem with the first argument is that it ignores how peace is not always preferable to armed resistance. We have every reason to assume thst the killing would not stop if Ukraine were to surrender today. Instead the Russians will brutally crush any dissent and kill a lot of - perceived or real - enemies of the occupation.
Edited by Zarastro on Apr 23rd 2022 at 1:01:52 PM
Well, look at how she handled Crimea, I guess.
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.