Yes, and what is the result of Germany becoming more involved upon the behest of the US? Trump announces to pull back HIS troops. You say that this is an example why closer corporation is a good idea, but it really looks like an opportunity to be left in a lurch. And yes, I know, you claim that the military is basically ignoring Trump's orders. Even if that is true, how long can they keep doing this?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Those actions were done with the intention of appeasing Trump and showing him that Germany does contribute to Nato effectively. However as the article I posted 2 or 3 pages before (damn this discussion is moving fast) pointed out, this had no effect on Trump (though it caused the Lithuanian PM to defend Merkel against Trump). So I would not interpret them as signs that the relations between the USA are deepening, but as an attempt to salvage them. And since this attempts have failed (spectacularly you might say if Trump indeed orders a withdrawel from Afghanistan) I doubt we will see them again in the future.
Well, the pull out order is failing to materialize in any way. And I’m not sure how that is a direct consequence of increased military cooperation to begin with, which again has been happening.
I suppose at this point the real test will be how the next year or two go. If the trend we’ve seen over the past two years continues, which I believe it will, it’ll be next to impossible for a future president to break away from NATO.
I would interpret this as an attempt to salvage the relationship if there was a sudden flurry of activity, but it’s been a pretty regular trend even before Trump took office.
Edited by archonspeaks on Dec 30th 2018 at 7:33:52 AM
They should have sent a poet.
As Brexit currently demonstrates, something being nearly impossible to do and deeply damage is never a reason for a country not being stupid enough to do it.
Brexit is a completely different beast than NATO, so no offense but that’s hardly relevant.
Germany seems to be taking the stance that if they’re critical to US warmaking they’ll be safe from political whims. That’s a safe stance to take. Europe is frankly never going to be able to “stand on its own” militarily, nor do they want to, so pursuing closer ties with each other and the US is really the only option.
They should have sent a poet.
It shows that countries can very well act against their own interest if you just convince them that they are somehow cheated.
Again, not really pertinent to the topic. Departure from NATO isn’t going to be put to a vote (an easily manipulated one at that) in the US, it’s a process that would have to move through hundreds of layers of bureaucracy, all of which have a vested interest in staying in NATO.
And again, Germany seems to understand this.
Worrying about a president leaving NATO reminds me a little of worrying about a president launching nukes. Yeah, sure, it’s possible...but anyone who knows the process by which it operates will tell you it’s realistically not going to happen.
Edited by archonspeaks on Dec 30th 2018 at 8:24:31 AM
They should have sent a poet.
…
I'm just....
…
You DID pay attention to the last elections in the US, right?
Did I miss the part where we held popular votes on military policy?
No?
I’m not sure it really matters either way. As I’ve mentioned about a thousand times, Germany already seems to have chosen cooperation over individual rearmament, not out of any great love for the US but simply because rearmament isn’t an option. The US military and foreign policy establishments are proving to be an almost-impassible obstacle for Trump. Funnily enough, his hatred of cooperation with NATO is actually driving renewed cooperation at lower levels, and if this trend continues for the next few years we’ll be seeing levels of cooperation unprecedented in the modern era. We’re already seeing it with exercises like Trident Juncture, and it’s only moving from there.
You can obfuscate all you like, but this is what’s happening.
Edited by archonspeaks on Dec 30th 2018 at 8:33:21 AM
They should have sent a poet.
What about it?
A bad President barely winning the election does not make their point any less true, it wouldn't be up for a vote and the bureaucracy is thankfully not run by the whims of the populace.
Edit: ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Dec 30th 2018 at 11:37:56 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
A procrastination in of itself
Let’s be honest, it’s best combated by running intelegence operations to counter Russian intelligence, because the Russians are part of why Republicans are winning elections and if Republicans can be prevented from winning elections than the US spot in NATO is secure.
Now there does regardless need to be preparation for a reduced US role in non-direct-defensive operations in Europe, we saw that with Obama, the US has become increasingly gun-shy and unwilling to commit the manpower needed for the kind of operations we need (especially around Europe). Someone has to step up and the other reasonable powers in the world (India, Japan and maybe South Africa) aren’t in a positon to project the kind of force the current global security situation needs.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Yeeeah, as much as I don't agree with the assertion that the US is moving away from Europe any time soon, the idea that 'don't worry, the only means by which the citizen body has to interact with the higher echelons of bureaucracy (Congress, the Senate, the Presidency) can't actually do anything to affect the bureaucratic organs running the American imperialist machine' to be a profoundly idiotic take on the situation.
Like, if you wonder why citizens are generally disillusioned with democracy even in the face of creeping ethno-nationalism, blatant abuse of democratic norms and powers and mass surveillance apparatuses, you really don't need to look any further than 'there are state organs in place that operate completely independently of your wishes no matter who you elect to the highest office of power, good luck scrubs.'
Edited by math792d on Dec 31st 2018 at 3:20:51 PM
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
It's also somewhat concerning, to be honest.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Dec 31st 2018 at 3:21:46 PM
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
I’d actually agree with that. Even though I think it’s a good thing in this specific case, one of the more disturbing features of the Trump presidency is that parts of our government like the military and the intelligence community have attained unprecedented levels of independence from upper-level leadership. This is especially true for the Do D, under Mattis it basically set its own policy and did whatever the hell it wanted.
I’ve talked about it more in other threads, but before Trump presidents would actually typically interact with the military at a battlefield level most days. Obama was famous (or infamous, depending on who you ask) for frequently getting involved in military operations close to the ground so to speak. He required consultation before any airstrike or major combat operation and would often sit in and watch how it went down. Trump, on the other hand, basically told the military they could do whatever they wanted and he wouldn’t stop them, and he rarely (read as never) checks in on what’s happening.
The issue with that is best summarized by the saying “when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail”. While some high level military leaders could be described as politicians, they’re primarily involved in the business of warmaking. To them, everything looks like a target.
It’s overall one of the more disturbing precedents set by this admin, though I’ll admit as far as NATO is concerned it works in our favor.
Edited by archonspeaks on Dec 31st 2018 at 6:54:11 AM
They should have sent a poet.
Servant of the Omnissiah
Germany adopts third gender identity for intersex people.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46727611
Suspected hate crime/terrorist attack in Bottrop after man drives his car into a crowd of mostly foreigners.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46730472
Edited by TechPriest90 on Jan 1st 2019 at 7:48:12 AM
I hold the secrets of the machine.
Hackers Attack Hundreds Of High-Profile German Politicians, Post Private Data Online
How do hackers actually get hold of all this kind of data? Is it as simple as having easily-broken passwords or clicking on email links you shouldn't in emails?
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
We don't know yet...and part of the information might be fake, too.
It's nothing politically sensitive apparently, but a number of private mails where part of the data drop.
It's also not just politicians, it's also personalities who are very outspoken against the Af D, so it were most likely multiple hacks.
Frankly, I am more concerned about the guy in Bottrop. This is already the second "mentally ill" person driving into a crowd.
Edited by Swanpride on Jan 4th 2019 at 1:05:37 AM
German far-right moving from arson attacks to vehicle strikes?
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
The German far right was never particularly choosy.
German far-right MP Frank Magnitz badly hurt in Bremen attack
The leader of Alternative for Germany (Af D) in Bremen was attacked by at least three masked men in the centre of the northern city on Monday.
The attackers knocked him unconscious with a piece of wood and kicked him in the head, Af D officials said.
The government and politicians across the spectrum condemned the attack. What happened in Bremen?
Mr Magnitz, 66, had just left a new year reception in Bremen's Kunsthalle art museum when he was attacked in the city's Goetheplatz as he walked to a central car park.
Police said he was beaten over the head with an unknown object by three men who then fled.
Two local tradesman came to his aid and he was taken to hospital.
Speaking from hospital on Tuesday, Mr Magnitz said he had little memory of what happened.
Joint party leader Alice Weidel described the incident as an "assassination attempt" while local officials in Bremen blamed "incitement" from the centre-left SPD and Green parties.
Another party spokesman, Jörg Meuthen, tweeted a photo of Mr Magnitz lying unconscious in his hospital bed and said he had been left "half-dead".
He had a big gash on his forehead and severe bruising around his right eye.
Af D entered the national parliament (Bundestag) for the first time last year with 94 seats and now has representatives in every German state parliament.
Its anti-immigration platform has struck a chord, particularly in eastern Germany where it hopes to make gains in three state elections this year. Af D is also eyeing the May 2019 European Parliament elections.
Last week an Af D office in the eastern town of Döbeln was damaged by an explosion. No-one was hurt.
SPD leader Andrea Nahles said that Af D was a "political opponent" of Germany's tolerant society but anyone trying to fight it with violence "betrays these values and jeopardises our co-existence".
While every other party - including Die Linke - condemned the attack, Gauland and Weidel instead tried to use this attack on one of their party members to score political points, accusing the other political parties of having incited violence against the AfD.
Apparently there been an overall uptick in political violence against all parties, though the AfD seems to have been hit the hardest. As much as one might want to engage in Schadenfreude about the AfD's incitement blowing up in their own faces, stuff like this will just allow them to play themselves up as the poor, downtrodden underdog.
Last thing we need is people sympathising with these assholes because the far left decided to play some good ol' 'bash the fash' again.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Jan 8th 2019 at 5:11:26 PM
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
German hacker behind massive political data leak identified
"The suspect was questioned on January 7 by the responsible prosecutor and BKA officials," the BKA announced in a statement. "He extensively confessed to the accusations against him and provided helpful information beyond his own crimes."
According to the BKA, the suspect said he was acting alone, and there are no indications of anyone else or any foreign state being involved. The BKA said the suspect had indicated he was motivated by "anger at the public statements of the politicians, journalists and public figures concerned."
The published material included personal data from Chancellor Angela Merkel and other political leaders, celebrities and journalists. Hundreds of politicians from all political parties except the far-right Alternative for Germany (Af D) were affected.
But BKA President Holger Münch said authorities were not treating the hack as a political crime and that the suspect had no known ties to right-wing extremism in Germany.
The BKA said the suspect's apartment had been searched on Sunday, after which he was taken into custody. The home of a 19-year-old man in Heilbronn, a town north of Stuttgart, who had contact with the hacker was also searched. He is cooperating with authorities as a witness.
@Wyldchyld: It can be as simple as that or any number of weaknesses in the hardware/software of a system.
Edited by TerminusEst on Jan 8th 2019 at 9:22:39 AM
Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Sure, the fact that everyone EXCEPT the AfD had been targeted was probably just a coincidence.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Jan 8th 2019 at 6:41:00 PM
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
Well, if there is no evidence for it you can not charge him for it. No doubt they will check him carefully for any links to a political party/movement.
Like I said just above, it seems like becoming indespensible is a more realistic way to prevent a pullout. Building up the European defense sector to the point where it’ll be able to match the US isn’t going to happen in lifetimes, if it happens at all.
They should have sent a poet.