Better solution?: Kuudere

Unilateral administrator action has locked the page and eliminated all the non-anime examples. Does anyone else here think renaming this to something else would be a better idea? (Something about this name in particular has always bothered me.)

The description of Kuudere says that it is a sub-trope of Tsundere - it would make sense for them to have related names.

I think that the only real problem is that we have a moderator who hasn't done his research - a kuudere is a specific type of tsundere, and nobody is arguing that Tsundere is an anime-only trope. It even has subpages for live action television, film, and western animation.

In this case, I think that the solution is to appeal to the other moderators, if that is at all a possibility.

Wait, what? I'm confused. Since when has a person who is outwardly cold but turns out to be a nice person anime exclusive?

It looks like for whatever reason Eddie saw a non-Japan-specific trope with a Japanese name and decided the most logical decision was to delete all the non-anime examples and lock the page, instead of, say, saying that the name needs to be changed.

...what does the term actually mean in English again, roughly-speaking?

There has been great resistance to that idea, it's not like it hasn't been tried.

^ 'Cool' - dere, dere meaning 'sweet, lovestruck' etc.

edited 5th Sep '11 4:33:11 PM by Arha

Since it has a Japanese name, and an admin apparently believes that these should be reserved for Japanese uses, even though he knows not many other people agree with him on this.

(Edit: I was replying to Arha above.)

edited 5th Sep '11 4:35:38 PM by Prfnoff

I think the whole '...dere' family of names should be chucked out in favor of something descriptive. I'm locking this one to emphasize that we will be doing something about these.

edited 5th Sep '11 4:36:19 PM by FastEddie

Or, you know, you could actually let this board do what its supposed to do, instead of unilateral action.

We had a multi-hundred post thread attempting to come up with just redirects for tsundere, and came up with some stuff that everyone agreed was "okish", but nothing that actual encapsulated the concept in a good, clear concise way. And thankfully we don't have to, since we can borrow a term from another language, which is what we do when we don't have words that work quite right.

Thats the great thing about words, they have definitions.

edited 5th Sep '11 4:38:21 PM by SakurazakiSetsuna

No, there is an analysis paralysis problem with these. Nothing gets done. It needs a push.

edited 5th Sep '11 4:40:07 PM by FastEddie

Right. Or you could be wrong.

You know. Just saying.

While I personally disagree on the methods used to make the point, I am calling Don't Shoot the Message here. Exclusively speaking, English wiki version = anything that isn't foreign-specific should have an English name.

However, we then come to English's habit of taking on loanwords, such as, say, Deus ex Machina, or, Übermensch.

So, we come to a dilemma and an impasse, then. On the one hand, we need English names for non-foreign-specific concepts. On the other hand, mod fiat is being invoked, so it has to be renamed.

I take it that we already tried renaming this and/or Tsundere, so we already have a list of names. I also take it, if I recall correctly, that none of the names provided capture the essence of the trope like the Japanese term does.

Hm...

Its not like we didn't just have this thread or anything, with the conclusion that it was best to keep tsundere and add some redirects. None of which are great, but there you go.

Going to have to side with SS here. Frankly, there's been no indication that we can come up with good names for either this or tsundere. Actually, kuudere would probably be possible, but tsundere has more or less become a loanword because we don't have a good alternative.

Wouldn't it be better to have a rename crowner or, well, anything rather than insisting that it simply does not appear in western works?

edited 5th Sep '11 4:43:24 PM by Arha

I can just cut 'em. That would work, too. Something needs to be done about them.

I'm afraid that I decided, after that... epic... debate in, what was it, Wiki Talk?... it wasn't worth it to get involved in the whole "-dere" family war.

I, personally, think it should be renamed, but only if we can find a good name that is actually the trope...

I think that would be rather extreme, Eddie. They are recognized tropes, after all...

edited 5th Sep '11 4:48:38 PM by USAF713

So what, you are just going to decide that since you, personally, don't like them they should be cut and replaced by something that is inferior, not in use anywhere else on the entire internet (or for that matter, the rest of planet), instead of actually admitting that maybe, just maybe, we have a point?

Its your prerogative, but it strikes me as a bad decision.

edited 5th Sep '11 4:50:01 PM by SakurazakiSetsuna

I don't see why something needs to be done about them. Are you also going to say that we have to rename Deus ex Machina?

Oh, and regardless, fix your vandalism of Kuudere, please.

Regardless of who's right and who's wrong (I don't think either one of you is wholly right or wrong, regardless) there's no reason for dickery...

That's an excellent question, too. Is there misuse?

edited 5th Sep '11 4:54:21 PM by USAF713

Short answer?

No.

"Short answer" implies that there is a more complex long answer...

No one has demonstrated misuse.

Hm...

Well... if it's being properly used (I'd like to see a wick check, but...), that would mean that people are getting it regardless of the non-English name, which makes me want to say that we should redirect farm for now and talk about name changing when (if) it starts to be misused...

Fast Eddie, please do some research before arbitrarily deleting half of a page.

For one thing, you say "Restrict to japanese examples only", but you deleted every example that wasn't in the "Anime and Manga" section. It might surprise you to learn that Japan makes other media, as well, and that a decent amount of valid examples (even under your "new definition") were just deleted. Can you restore those examples and unlock the page, so that the page can at least function in a whatever limited capacity?