overhaul ? New Crowner (9/13/11): Lolicon

And that's because of the Fetish Fuel factor. Actually playing it up as Loli Fanservice is not that overhwelmingly prevalent. Common nowadays, yes.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Either the Lolicon trope means, "Pedophilia played for laughs", in which case the name is confusing to anyone who knows what the word means or looks it up, and should be renamed, or it means "Children presented with sexual tones", in which case there there are clearer, more widely used words that would be better choices.

Since people seem confused as to what ロリコン actually means in Japan (for links, go to Lolicon, click "Discussion, and scroll down to the bottom. If someoen could post them in this thread for me, that could be helpful ):

ロリコン Lolita complex sexual attraction to children paedophile

Lolita complex {noun} (also: paedophile, pedophile)ロリコン {noun} [abbr.]

ロリコン loli〈俗〉〔主に日本の作品・文化関連で◆【語源】日本語より。もともとはLolita complex〕 loli-con〈俗〉〔主に日本の作品・文化関連で◆【語源】日本語より。もともとはLolita complex〕 Loli-con〈俗〉〔主に日本の作品・文化関連で◆【語源】日本語より。もともとはLolita complex〕 paedo〈話〉〔p(a)edophileの略〕 pedo〈話〉〔p(a)edophileの略〕

ロリコン (rorikon) (n) (abbr) Lolita complex (sexual attraction to children, esp. young girls); paedophile; pedophile

Lolicon is not child molesting played for laughs, and it's a trope largely exclusive to Japan for the same reason that making Pedophilia an alt title for this trope would be a bad idea. Seriously, the exact meaning of the word is irrelevant in what the trope means and what it is called.

When did I say anything about child molestation? I was about to post a link to a dictionary, then realised that I can't. Open up Google and type in "define:pedophile". You should get resolts such as:

pe·do·phile

noun /ˈpedəˌfīl/  paedophiles, plural; pedophiles, plural

A person who is sexually attracted to children

(pedophilia) a sexual attraction to children

[from Greek pedo = child + phile = loving]

And now you're splitting hairs. Having fun?

Anyway, more useful note, did anyone ever make a ykttw for actual pedophilia or anything?

edited 29th Aug '11 5:32:33 PM by Arha

GGFD, while that's the dictionary definition, it's not the way it's commonly used. It has become, effectively, an accusation of child molestation.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

No, I am countering your point.

Lolicon = Lolita Complex = sexual attraction to children = Pedophile

Therefore, if Lolicon is, as various people are arguing, played for humour, then it is pedophilia (not child molestation) played for humour.

I think it would be best to finish this discussion before making a new trope page.

EDIT: My native langauge is English ;). Does anyone have any proof that lolita complex doesn't have similair connotations in Japan?

edited 29th Aug '11 5:40:05 PM by ggfd

No, it is not pedophilia played for humor. I will explain it one more time.

Pedophilia Trope: Person is sexually attracted to children. Usually they will be an actual child molester because otherwise there's probably not much point to the fact, though I can think of an example that even comes from a Japanese work. Either way, the pedophile is horrible, awful, inexcusable etc. Apart from black humor, there are few jokes made about pedophilia in this sense.

Lolicon or shotacon, comes to the same thing: Person is sexually attracted to children. Generally, this is seen as kind of shameful, but not nearly to the extent that the pedophile trope above would play it. Sort of 'Okay, you have weird taste and it's kind of creepy but whatever' attitude. The attitude is not portrayed as entirely wrong, and more jokes may be made about it. Side effects of this attitude naturally include more fanservice of childlike characters.

Now, even in Japan, pedophilia is looked down on. The word lolicon is a shortening of lolita complex and refers to pedophilia. Okay, I get it. However, the portrayal given to lolicon is very different. And no, it's not just pedophilia IN JAPAN if that's what you're wondering because there are examples of the Pedophilia Trope that occur in manga and related works, even though that is where the lolicon trope is almost entirely exclusive to.

Thus, we need a separate trope for what I'm going to refer to as the Western view of pedophilia even if that description is not entirely accurate. Lolicon, while disturbing, is not the same thing and is fine the way it is.

edited 29th Aug '11 6:24:20 PM by Arha

I've read up on it a bit more.

Apparently, the lolicon industry/genre was born from a combination of relaxed sexual attitudes/low number of taboos and a cultural idolisation of immaturity in women which itself stems from the strict formality in their public lives (also means that they tend to get particularly silly when they let their hair down). Maybe some other stuff, too. The society has become less formal, but the obsession remains (analogous to blonds in the west? Original context past, but its still hanging around).

Although live images of sexualised young people were made restricted/illegal some time ago, drawn/animated images are something of a loophole which was not covered by that legislation. With over 80% of the population supporting regulation of manga and anime (according to a 2008 poll), it is likely that such regulations will be implemented if they haven't already.

None of this is even mentioned in the trope page, and I get the distinct impression that it is based on westerners' point of view, rather than the culture it is actually from. This is a massive flaw when it comes to helping people understand the works in which it appears.

edited 29th Aug '11 7:50:09 PM by ggfd

"Seriously, the exact meaning of the word is irrelevant in what the trope means and what it is called." That's not what I was told; over in the Yangire repair discussion, a potential rename was shot down due to a word not being used in the proper context.

The trope page says "this is the term used to describe the fetish/fascination some mature people have for underage girls" In other words... paedophilia. This article really is in need of an overhaul.

If leaving the trope name as-is is the plan, placing it as a subtrope to a larger, more general 'Paedophilia' supertrope would be a good course of action.

If a rename is necessary (Which really couldn't hurt) the original 'Lolita Complex' would probably be the ideal substitute.

Or, Lolicon could be a subtrope to a Lolita Complex trope.

edited 30th Aug '11 1:59:59 AM by DisasterGrind

Are people suggesting that Loli Con is basically the equivalent of Pirates Who Don't Do Anything?

You people are aware that real Japanese view lolicons as creepy, just like westerners view paedophiles as creepy.

It's just peadophile jokes made in a different language, it should have the English name.

I realise that this is a delicate and volatile subject, but I'm gonna have to say I'm opposed to a rename and overhaul, because paedophilia is not a trope. Lolicon is not, strictly speaking, a trope, either. The latter is, however, a term widely used by anime fans and their critics alike, and for this reason, a page defining it seems like a worthwhile thing to have.

Also support retaining "loli" as a redirect, because that term is intrinsically linked to the terms "lolicon" and "Lolita complex". Strongly opposed to creating a page linking to tropes involving young girls under that name (what are we, /a/?) because that's just really creepy and pretty much irrelevant to the tropes.

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"'this is the term used to describe the fetish/fascination some mature people have for underage girls' In other words... paedophilia."

I feel creepy even pointing this out, but "attraction to underage girls" is NOT synonymous with paedophilia. Paedophilia means attraction to children; that is, pre-adolescents. Girls in early, mid, or late adolescence may still be legally underage, but attraction to them is a different psychological phenomenon (hebephilia or ephebephilia, depending on the stage of adolescence).

The only reason this matters is that sometimes the term lolicon is used to describe characters obsessed with, say, middle school girls who are already in puberty. That's hebephilia, not paedophilia, if we want to be precise. Maybe we don't want to be that precise?

I think that's splitting hairs. It's still sexual attraction to kids; to all intents and purposes, that's paedophilia.

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Is it necessary to keep a page like a Loli article from existing, though? I wouldn't want it to have any examples, but just saying it's creepy doesn't seem like a valid reason. If it was an article saying, 'Naked little kids are awesome!' that might be different, but the majority of works don't do that. I would personally give one combined article for Loli and Shota, explain the general gist of the character and keep it a locked supertrope page for stuff like Token Loli and Cute Shotaro Boy.

As is, people are already using the lolicon article to refer to actual little girls instead of people interested in little girls.

Also, lolicon is frequently a character type. And it doesn't matter how the Japanese view actual pedophilia because this is not a website about explaining real life, it's about explaining tropes. The trope lolicon would refer to actual characters who are attracted to children but without the general horrified disapproval that a Western work would contain.

edited 30th Aug '11 11:43:55 AM by Arha

Many western shows use a paedophile in a humourous setting. Family guy has Herbert, Curb your enthusiasm had an episode where Larry made friends with a paedophile, I could keep going. This is another case of having a different trope name for Japanese works than anything else just because the anime fandom hates English. Rename this trope to "paedophile".

I think we at least deserve a crowner to vote on it.

You... do realize that you don't actually have an argument, don't you? It's kind of intriguing for me how people are repeating things that are almost completely irrelevant.

Anyway, let me know when you have a point to make that actually shows you understand the trope known as lolicon and can then use that knowledge to show that it and a general pedophile trope are the same thing.

edited 30th Aug '11 12:17:44 PM by Arha

Herbert is a Ephebophile....

There is also the whole "2D only" variety of Lolicon as a Insistent Terminology vs Pedo. (which the page doesn't really cover but thats really a common usage too.)

edited 30th Aug '11 12:21:54 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

My argument.

Lolicon is Japanese for paedophile (well, technically it's a shortening of lolita complex, but it amounts to the same thing).

A lolicon character is a character in an anime/manga who has an attraction to children, this is usually played humorously.

There are also examples of the exact same thing happening in Western media, except we wouldn't use the lolicon trope for that.

Therefore there is no reason for this to retain a separate name, bearing in mind the current policy of renaming Japanese tropes that have an equivalent English meaning and an equivalent use in an English language setting.

edited 30th Aug '11 12:30:51 PM by namrepes

Your first point fails because while the word means the same thing, it is not used in the same way. Such as, what if the trope was called Kittenbrain or something but was otherwise exactly the same? It would still describe a different interpretation of pedophilia.

So, yeah, you're still not getting at the point I am making. And no, I'm not arguing that pedophilia in Japan is somehow inherently different. I do recognize that the society at large also does not approve. Thus, I will mention an example from a Japanese work that's even targeted at the same base as anime: Cross Channel. The work contains a pedophile that has a sympathetic viewpoint, but that is quite different from anything involving lolicon.

The difference is that a lolicon in Japanese works is "usually played humorously".

A pedophile in Western works is usually played as a serious threat and/dangerous.

The fact that there are a few Western works that have played pedophilia for comedy does not change the fact that it's not usually played for humor.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

@T Turtle: The trope page itself says "Because the characters in anime are often young by convention, many fans think that a character can only be Lolicon if she is twelve or younger". That may not be definative, but it lends weight to my arguement (and yes, I do know of hebebophilia, but the difference is minimal in this context and splitting that hair would be pedantry in this discussion). For clarity and to reduce tangental arguments, I suggest using pubescence as a reference point for this discussion rather than legal adulthood.

As a sidenote, while the federal age of consent in Japan is 13, there is also a requirement of parental permission, and it would be expected that a marriage was in the pipeline. Various prefectures set higher ages, though.

@Arha: I don't think I've even mentioned creepiness anywhere. All my arguments -and I have giiven several- have been based on wiki guidelines or things like misuse of words (which is easy to be objective about, since you can go by what multiple dictionaries say). I have brought this topic up because the trope page is deficient (not enough/inaccurate cultural context given, which is vital for 'foriegn' tropes), and it may also be possible to change the trope name to something more widely used. A name along the lines of "Pedophilia Played For Laughs" would fit that definition, and be more readily understood.

When "Loli" is used to refer to little girls, either "pedophilia" or something like "girl with pedophillic appeal" (inelegant wording, but I can't be bothered coming up with somethin better).

And real life is relevant to tropes; it shapes the stories of an age, and gives context to their themes. For example, Jappan is tolerant of various paraphilia more because they are too polite to say things like "Did you know you're a creepy assed cunt?" (random excessive obscenety is funny, no? ), and they tend to put on a noticeably different face in public, anyway.

@Madrugada: And why do Japanese find it funny? I think I'm picking up an impression of that from reading about loli in general, but as far as I can see, the trope page doesn't even mention it being played for laughs.

If something is used somewhat worldwide, but more commonly appears in a particular country, is that really enough justification to use a phrase specific to that country, when we could give it a much more intuitive name?

Again, I'm not saying we should remove all mention of the word "lolicon", I just believe that it would be better to make it a subsection on a more generalised page.

edited 30th Aug '11 4:19:18 PM by ggfd

Frankly, I don't care what you call the trope. But it's not the same trope as normal pedophilia presentations. Rape as Comedy and Rape as Backstory aren't the same trope, correct? Even Rape as Comedy and Rape Is Okay When Its Female On Male or one of the similar tropes named like that aren't the same tropes. So why should all tropes portraying pedophilia be exactly the same? Or be used in the same works?

Also, someone else called it creepy. I'm not responding to one single person.

It's not used worldwide. Not "humorously". In the West, a pedophile is not amusing. He's dangerous. He's a threat. He's scary. He's not amusing. The trope isn't simply "A character who is sexually attracted to children."

The trope is what the convention is, the way the writer expects his or her audience to react. In the West, that convention, that expected reaction, is fear or disgust. Not amusement. That's the difference between a Lolicon and a Pedophile. It's what makes a Lolicon a lolicon, not just another pedophile.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.