Libertarian Tropers Unite!

How exactly do you differentiate between right-libertarianism and left-libertarianism? I know I'm a libertarian, but I can't for the life of me figure out where I am on the spectrum.

I know I'm for social equality in the sense I that don't think anyone should start out with more or less advantages than anyone else, and communal property doesn't sound like a bad idea, but I disagree with just about every left-libertarian I've come across on the idea of the death penalty (in principle, if not in practice).

edited 19th Jun '14 1:32:48 AM by Robotnik

fist bumps Death pigeon.

It's hard to say. No political front is truly united on every issue.

Instead ask yourself this. Who do you think is a bigger bunch of crooks? the Republicans or the democrats? There lies your answer.

edited 19th Jun '14 1:18:18 PM by joeyjojo

Depends on what group calling themselves "left-libertarians" you're talking about because there are, broadly, two groups who use the term. First, there are the capitalist libertarians who put a lot of focus on social issues. The difference between them and right-libertarians is mostly what their focused on. The second group is us libertarian socialists. We are different in that we reject capitalist property systems in favor of a use and occupancy system which would result in the abolition of rent and the transfer of ownership of all workplaces to the workers, while right-libertarians support no such system and, rather, favor capitalistic property relations. Most libertarian socialists who use the term "left-libertarian" are mutualists who still accept market based systems, but there are some of us commies who want a gift economy who use the terminology from time to time.

Maybe it would help if I elaborated on my various positions.

1. I don't know enough about economics in practice to make an informed decision one way or the other, but I do think the playing field needs to be made level if we're going to have capitalism, which I guess would put me to the left of the most of the actual Libertarian Party here in the U.S.

2. I'm not necessarily an anarchist.

3. When it comes to the death penalty, I broadly agree with Murray Rothbard as outlined here.

As things are now, I would say the Republicans, or at least the neocons and libertarian minarchists in the vein of the Koch brothers.

edited 19th Jun '14 11:40:50 AM by Robotnik

With those positions, you sound rather reminiscent of the first camp calling themselves left-libertarians, but, at the same time, your sort of "I dunno" attitude, when it comes to economics and your use of if in "if we're going to have capitalism" makes me think you'd be at least sympathetic to libertarian socialists calling themselves left-libertarians.

Also, personally, I find that the Republicans and Democrats have no real substantive difference and will just promote the current capitalist hegemony, with minor variations as to how they will do so.

edited 19th Jun '14 11:59:27 AM by deathpigeon

They're both entirely too authoritarian, I know that much. I voted Democrat in 2012 because I figured Obama would be at least less likely to make use of the NDAA, but I thought Green sounded good; of course, making a vote based solely on "feeling" may not have been a good idea, and I have some issues with their crime policies, as you might imagine. Do you vote?

I did last election, but I have no intention to unless one of the parties runs a truly terrible candidate, like Dianne Feinstein or Scott Walker or, by some miracle, it looks like fascists might have a chance in the election. Direct action is far more effective than indirect action at creating a free society because it is practicing a free society in the here and now, but some candidates are just terrible enough that it's worth voting.

Aren't a lot of Republican politicians fascist already?

edited 19th Jun '14 8:00:02 PM by Robotnik

You have to vote here by law. I like the system through despite it hardly being libertarian.

There is a preference system though so that takes the sting out of it. You don't have to 'waste' your vote.

edited 19th Jun '14 9:02:52 PM by joeyjojo

No. The Tea Party displays the traits of second or third stage fascism, though.

Ouch.

And the Republican party is trying to keep the Tea Party in their bloc. They're starting to realize that's political suicide, but Tea Partiers and the Republican corporate masters think too much alike to eject them with any rapidity.

I would like to believe in libertarianism. There are some points of governance where I think it has good ideas. But in my estimation, the libertarian ideal is founded as much on utopian wishes about human nature as pure communism is.

edited 19th Jun '14 11:40:07 PM by tparadox

That's how fascists have always gained power. Conservatives gave it to them through a legitimate means of handing power to someone.

As a commie and anarchist, I really must object. I don't believe in some ideal human nature where we are naturally peaceful or giving or something. I reject human nature to begin with, and I think that self-interest is how anarchistic communism can be achieved. Through self-interest, and egoism in general, is the rejection of everything placed above the self. This means people, institutions, and ideas. In that comes the rejection of authority (even our own because, as we take on authority, the idea of our authority gets placed above us and controls us), property rights/sacred property (though not in general property, just property held as my right and made sacred with people having to respect property), the state, the idea of Man, and all sorts of other spooks. From that radical rejection comes the actualization of insurrection and, if done on a large scale, the creation of anarchy and communism. #StirnerFTW

Is there a single libertarian ideal? Why should libertarianism and communism automatically equal anarchy?

I'm not sure it would be entirely inaccurate, for example, to call me a "minimal statist" rather than an anarchist. It's just that my idea of a good "minimal state" would be the Koch brothers' nightmare.

By the way, in your experience, how do left-libertarians feel about the idea of gun rights in comparison to right-libertarians?

edited 21st Jun '14 1:54:59 AM by Robotnik

We need a well armed proletariat so that they can more easily engage in insurrection against the state and capitalism. Ultimately, a well armed populace would allow the people to engage in their own defense through community militias.

"fascism"

I'll take terms made useless by misuse for $100, Alex.

I don't use fascism willy nilly. I call the Tea Party fascists because of how closely they have followed Robert Paxton's five stages of fascism in their development as a movement. I object to calling Republicans fascists because they followed none of those steps.

Do you consider personal property to be the same thing as private property?

whose definition are we using to make a distinction?

I am a pretty solid left-libertarian, and would probably be an outright anarchist if it were not for my somewhat cynical scepticism of the efficacy of anarchist tactics.

Robotnik, you are a left-libertarian; your views on capital punishment are unusual, and I disagree with them, but they do not magically nullify your other opinions.

Yes, many of the Tea Partiers and other ultra-conservatives in office do exhibit legitimate fascist tendencies, not simply in terms of authoritarian purist jingoism but in economics despite their supposed allegiance to neoliberal dogma. They are a strange and disturbing lot.

Let's get something straight- I hate being political. I have just become so as a result of growing up around my father and college-age sister. My dad is a banker, and holds no bigoted prejudices against anyone as long as they know how to make money, so therefore is a moderate conservative. My sister is farther to the left than my dad is to the right, and has always had both a disgust with America's violent culture (which I think should be more focused on human nature's violent tendencies) and an uncommonly high amount of sympathy for lower-class minorities. In later high school and college, this was taken up to eleven, and she grew the tendency to become somewhat verbally aggressive when talking to people that weren't as capital LP-liberal-progressive as the majority of the people she hangs out with at Penn State. My mom holds a mixture of their beliefs and often tries to keep peace between them. The influence of the three of them, combined with Asperger's-rationalizing, made me probably a center-right libertarian, if anything. I hold a few beliefs that are on the moderate-to-far left in addition to the center-right libertarian beliefs I generally hold, though I try not to think about them as "liberal" beliefs, and rather just as what makes sense to me. I try to be open-minded to beliefs I could potentially disagree with, unless I'm somewhere that only one point of view is permitted, such as most forms of Yahoo feed. The issues that usually rile me up the most are ones relating to political correctness, gone mad or otherwise, mainly because of its influence in media that I feel should be apolitical except in certain subgenres, predominantly comic books, superhero films, genre television, and video games. If all you ever do is obsess over representation and empowerment in non-political media, you'll never be happy with the media you claim to want to enjoy, so the best you can do sometimes is be grateful for what you do have. That's not to say representation and empowerment are bad, it's just that they should happen naturally rather than be forced in a way that looks like it's simply reinforcing widespread tokenism.

Well... another election cycle, yet another disappointing crop of major candidates.

Johnson-Weld 2016!

edited 3rd Jun '16 3:31:55 AM by EarlOfSandvich

One day, a fellow troper who I've been spending way too much time with (I've pretty much turned into his minion by now) and who's been lecturing me on politics for a decent period of time by now got me to try out a political poll. Apparently, my political beliefs lined up best with two Libertarian candidates I'd never heard of before (and Bernie Sanders, which was both reassuring and worrying). So... I guess I fit in here now? Is this a good thing or a bad thing? (Don't answer that.)

I'm more or less moderate. however, a government that used keep the peace but at the same time allowing people have freedom is something i like. doing away with it is something that never appealed to me. and for communism, it has it uses but like capitalism, not a fan either. i guess i want a economy that cares about the creativity.

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Edited by MerryMikael on Jul 1st 2018 at 10:20:57 PM

Bumping up this thread.

So, I've been lurking on this thread for some time and I have to wonder if I'm a libertarian. Here are some of my beliefs:

• I believe in separation of church and state

• I am generally for the death penalty

• I'm okay with LGBT people.

• I believe in the preservation of freedom of speech. Even for views I disagree with.

• I don't believe in shoving my views down people's throats like some people do.

• I believe that the government shouldn't have more power than is necessary and that people should be able to live as they want.

• Despite its flaws, I'm okay with capitalism.

edited 21st Mar '18 6:08:08 PM by pointless233