DEATH BATTLE

I know basically nothing about Persona other than "People have monster-things called Personas and those Personas fight for them."

I've been following the conversation here, and from the sounds of it, I'm hearing a lot of compelling arguments for Weiss to win and not a lot in the other direction.

But not knowing anything about Persona, I have a question to ask: is Mitsuru herself a fighter? Or is it like Pokemon where she summons her Persona and then the Persona does all the fighting?

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 22nd 2019 at 12:14:07 PM

As far as I've gleaned they're both fighters, albeit the user themself is strictly a physical fighter while the Persona's responsible for spellcasting and such.

I liked the banther last episode.

Ben: Ever seen a super nova?

Hal: Several, actually.

Definitely gonna be interesting to see the q&a for this fight considering all the dislikes. I imagine no matter what they say they aren't gonna be satisfied though. That's always how it be.

One video I found offers some counterarguments that have really changed my opinion of the episode.

Some of the counterpoints were:

1.Alien X would have followed Green Lantern the moment he tried to time travel.

2.The Omnitrix can protect Ben from getting his arm cut off, either in human form or by transforming him. Ben doesn't even need to be aware of the danger.

3.While the Green Lantern Ring can recharge quickly, it still needs to recharge, while the Omnitrix doesn't need to recharge with Master Control active. Meaning if Green Lantern keeps time traveling, Ben can just keep following him until the ring runs out of power.

Yeah, this is the first Death Battle in recent years where I think the results are wrong.

Mitsuru herself can fight perfectly fine with a rapier. Its just that you can only do that much when you are trying to climb up a tower filled with large variety of monsters. I would make a random list, but only reason why I would do that is because one of the monsters look like Hulk Hogan.

Re:Episode's reception: I guess in hindsight this makes sense in that, like, Ben 10 and (in particular) Alien X have both always been wanked to hell and back as being Super Strongest Fictional Characters Ever. But... still, I wasn't prepared for an episode to get this much backlash this quickly. Can't even remember the last time they got put on blast like this.

Which makes it super surreal from the perspective of this thread, since we ruled pretty quickly that Alien X isn't invincible or unkillable and especially not if Hal got White Lantern stuff. Then the Prediction Blog came out with the universal conclusion that he didn't need it, since the Green Lantern power ring's plenty capable on its own.

EDIT: ...thaaaaaat said, if they gave Hal the win on the grounds of time travel that's super suspect.

Edited by NesClassic on May 22nd 2019 at 12:14:38 PM

Yeah, Ever since that guy made that video saying Ben could beat both Goku and Superman, people tend to think of Ben as more powerful then he is.

I feel like when both characters receive the feat of "Held back the big bang" the answer to who wins in a fight is "Are you freaking serious?"

I mean, if we're going to be theoretical

Hal could literally just blitz the fuck out of Ben before he could even turn into Alien X.

Edit: Also those points of debunking are just "In the fight animation, why didn't this character do that?"

Which I really thought we established by now, that the fight animation is not how winners are decided.

Edited by FlutterFire on May 22nd 2019 at 2:22:13 PM

Yeah, any semblance of a fight relies on ben being able to transform into alien x, before GL just kills him or does anything to stop him from pressing the button.

I don't even have to look at that video to know it was Kuro The Artist. The thing that constantly needs reminding is that the animation we see is not representative of how the actual fight would go down. Sometimes Ben wins, sometimes Hal will. That's always how this works unless your name is Scorpion.

Yeah this certainly is interesting and seeing that video is really frustrating because they're conflating the animation with the research or how the fight would actually go down even though it doesn't. Which really bothers me cause a lotta people put a lotta effort into that shit lol. Not to mention that guys content makes me really confused.

Edited by ManlyPlant on May 22nd 2019 at 12:25:11 PM

Man, RWBY sure gets a lot of vitriol from DB fans. Even here at times - almost as much as Fate. Hmmmmm, I wonder if there are good matchups between the two. Watcha say - which would be your favorite Fate vs RWBY matchup?

As for previous battle, should I mention that Hal could OHK all of Ben's aliens besides X? This really was just Green Lantern vs Alien X.

I mean that was essentially the entire discussion when Ben vs. Hal was announced. "Can Hal beat Alien X?"

Okay, ignoring the animation, let's go into the reasoning why the hosts believe Hal won.

1. "Celestialsapiens can be beaten in battle and have failed in the past". The only time a Celestialsapien lost was to another one, which is like a Green Lantern losing to another Green Lantern, so that doesn't mean much. Alien X couldn't stop the universe from being destroyed because Ben didn't know the universe was being destroyed, especially since Alien X himself could survive the destruction. Since Alien X was powerful enough to recreate the universe, he could probably stop it from being destroyed too.

2. "Hal had defenses against mind control, time travel, and universe destruction". I have no objections against these feats.

3. "Alien X wasn't immune to mind control, transmutation, and time manipulation." The video I posted didn't mention anything about mind control, but considering Alien X is a reality warper who can survive the destruction of the universe, transmutation seems weak by comparison. Alien X can also sense changes in time, meaning he could counter Green Lantern's time travel just as easily.

Overall, I only see two ways Hal could win. One would be to mind control Alien X into turning back into Ben and remove the Omnitrix. The other would be to freeze time before Ben becomes Alien X so neither Ben nor the Omnitrix can do anything. Hal can't remove the Omnitrix by cutting it off because the Omnitrix is basically a Spider-Sense that protects the wearer from everything: the Omnitrix would either protect Ben from those attacks or turn Ben into an alien that's immune to it. He can't kill Ben before he transforms because the Omnitrix can transform him before the attack lands.

On the other hand, Ben can win by fighting Hal until the Green Lantern Ring runs out of power. While the ring only needs a few seconds to recharge, that's an eternity against a foe as powerful as Alien X.

If Hal can indeed mind control Alien X or freeze time, then he's still the more likely victor, so this would be a case where the main issue is how the fight is portrayed in the animation, not the victor.

The biggest problem is the Omnitrix's fail-safe abilities weren't portrayed properly. It would be like Spider-Man vs Batman, except Spider-Man doesn't have his Spider-Sense.

Edited by MJTrooper on May 22nd 2019 at 1:47:51 AM

I thought the problem Fate had was how convoluted the rules are.

Is that Matt Mercer as Hal?

For Weiss vs Mitsuru, I'm giving it to Mitsuru.

Weiss has trained her whole life to fight beasts made of darkness, true, but so has Mitsuru.

Mitsuru also was able to fight an avatar of the Embodiment of Death and survive. As much as I love Weiss, Persona is at a much higher level then RWBY is at the moment other then the gods of Light and Darkness, as well as salem, and those are only a small handful in RW By compared to the inumerable Gods and Demons from Persona.

Weiss is actually lucky she isn't fighting anyone from Mainline Mega Ten, which Persona is a spinoff of, and of which are an order of magnitude stronger then the Persona Counterparts on a multiversal scale.

Hal can move so much faster than Alien X. Enough to catch Barry Allen and Professor Zoom and nearly break the speed force barrier with his own construct. He could absolutely blitz.

And Hal, being from DC, regularly fights reality warpers, Mandrakk and Parallax for example.

Hell, in the episode itself, they say he's taken blows from Superboy Prime, who also fucks with reality.

But perhaps that'll be covered in the Q&A in the cast.

I might be wrong since I don't know very much about Persona 3's plot, but didn't she (and the rest of SEES) only survive because her leader sacrificed himself?

He sounded more like Liam O'Brien to me.

Against the original Nyx. Mitsuru fought the avatar of Nyx that's generally on the usual Endgame Persona Tier Boss in power. The original Nyx is in a class of its own by comparison.

To summarize, this is how I think Hal or Ben could've won the battle.

Hal:

1?: Cut the Omnitrix off before its defenses stop him from doing so. This one's uncertain because while Hal can move faster than light, it's unknown how fast the Omnitrix's defenses are.

2?: Mind control Alien X into turning back into Ben and have Ben remove the Omnitrix. This depends on whether Green Lantern can control people's minds. Alien X doesn't have any known defenses against mind control.

3?: Freeze time before Ben turns into Alien X. This depends on whether Green Lantern can stop time. If Ben wasn't Alien X and time was frozen, I doubt the Omnitrix would be able to protect him.

Ben:

1.: Fight Green Lantern until the Green Lantern Ring runs out of power. With the Master Control, the Omnitrix has no time limit while the ring does have a limited power supply. Even though the ring can recharge in a few seconds, it's like an eternity in the middle of a battle.

2.: Remove the Green Lantern Ring. Batman can steal Hal's ring without him noticing, so it's possible.

Since both Hal and Alien X can survive the destruction of the universe, it's unlikely either of them can kill each other directly. Both of them can time travel, so that's not a factor either; Alien X might even be the better time traveler, because he can sense changes in time while Hal can't.

I think a big issue with this death battle is that it seems there is a lot of word of god kinda stuff in regards to ben and stuff? Which always seems to be a tricky topic when it come to Vs. Battles as far as I'm aware

Either way gonna be looking forward to this upcoming fight though. Never played Persona 3 but I do have a copy of Persona 3 Portable that I could play so maybe I'll give it a shot. Plus my friend has been wanting me to give it a shot :p

Edited by ManlyPlant on May 22nd 2019 at 3:05:07 AM