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2019 mod notice: We have a devoted thread about impeachment here.

2020 mod notice:

Because this thread is a central OTC hub for lots of information and news, it is not likely to be locked.

However, for the same reason, the amount of panicking and fearmongering (particularly in regards to US/Iran tensions) has more potential impact here.

If you are posting unsourced, inflammatory statements, or responding with "we're all doomed!", that is obviously and clearly damaging the quality of this thread. And you will be warned, your post mod-edited, thumped, or suspended if necessary.

Edited by nombretomado on Jan 7th 2020 at 7:33:48 AM

CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Jan 14th 2020 at 3:53:50 AM

I think Bernie is the only person other than Warren offering solutions.

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Jan 14th 2020 at 3:54:23 AM

[Double post]

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 14th 2020 at 3:56:44 AM

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
TacticalFox88 from USA Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
Jan 14th 2020 at 3:54:24 AM

Yup. Bernies whole thing is to point out a particular thing that could be a barrier (gender, race) and somehow always of nearly always discuss this barrier in a tone deaf at best way, and at worst the most insulting way possible.

And some are clutching their pearls like he would NEVER say such a thing.

This is literally the same guy who was dumb enough to believe most drug dealers were black FIVE years ago. Or wrote rape essays. Or said he was a bigger feminist than his own female opponent decades ago.

I could go on and on. But I know itíd be wasted text. Iím glad heís losing

New Survey coming this weekend!
CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
M84 This is bad comedy. from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
This is bad comedy.
Jan 14th 2020 at 3:59:31 AM

[up]As that recent story demonstrated though, he hasn't really improved that much. In both the "not making tone-deaf statements" department and the "apologizing for making tone-deaf statements" department.

Edited by M84 on Jan 14th 2020 at 7:59:50 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany
Foreign Troper
Jan 14th 2020 at 4:02:18 AM

[up][up][up] How is he losing exactly? Compared to Biden? Sure, unfortunately. But he is still polling higher than Warren.

Belief Makes You Stupid indeed.
TacticalFox88 from USA Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
Jan 14th 2020 at 4:03:33 AM

Thatís, literally, by definition losing. If youíre not in first place.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany
Foreign Troper
Jan 14th 2020 at 4:04:55 AM

Yeah, but there is nothing to be glad about, since Warren isn't winning either.

Unless you think that Biden is better than both of them.

Belief Makes You Stupid indeed.
GoldenKaos Free as the flame from Ynys y Cedyrn - Europa Relationship Status: Tongue-tied
Free as the flame
Jan 14th 2020 at 4:05:52 AM

And once the field narrows down further, and especially once either Warren or Bernie drop out, then Biden's lead might not be as solid as it seems.

"Losing" is also a very loaded way to describe a race that's very much not over. I'd say losing in this context would mean that the candidate's chances are steadily approaching zero, rather than just being behind with all to play for.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Jan 14th 2020 at 12:08:25 PM

Probably should be working.
Jan 14th 2020 at 6:18:00 AM

On another topic for a sec, anyone else deeply concerned about the mad rush to switch to touch screen ballots instead of paper ballots? Mother Jones has a piece on just how unreliable they are.

Sadly, I think proponents of the TSBs are operating under the Sunk Cost Fallacy: "We paid all this money for these touch screens, we're gonna use 'em, no matter how easily they can be hacked or how unverifiable they are."

Edited by speedyboris on Jan 14th 2020 at 6:18:09 AM

Jan 14th 2020 at 6:18:33 AM

Sanders' record is full of questionable things, including on race. He ignored black activists in Vermont, voted for the crime bill and there are legions of clips of him dismissing racial issues while saying the true issue in America is class.

Do I believe he said something shitty offhand and forgot about it? Yes. Do I also imagine that Warren's staffers, particulary the ones who used to work for Clinton, outright hate him and leaked this to damage him? Absolutely.

Though the idea Sanders is honorable in campaigning is questionable. His campaign in 2016 was dirty from the get go and got worse as it went on. And despite the 'non-aggression pact', his op surrogates have been attacking Warren constantly. Nina Turner, one of the top employees in Sanders' campaign was all but decrying her as 'not a progressive.'

I'd vote for him if he won, but Sanders made his own bed.

Also, Biden has been in the lead for almost this entire primary. He's the frontrunner and he is dominating the support he needs to win. Yes, younger black voters support Bernie, but older black voters? They break for Biden and that's the key voting block

Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 14th 2020 at 6:21:17 AM

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Jan 14th 2020 at 6:19:33 AM

In an ideal world, electronic balloting would be a no-brainer. Saves costs, much more convenient for voters, etc. Heck, even in-person voting is kind of stale as a concept. But we don't live in an ideal world, and the security risks are just too high, never mind the issue of verifying those votes.

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TobiasDrake Exposition Dragon from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Exposition Dragon
Jan 14th 2020 at 7:09:31 AM

It is just flat-out weird to me that mail-in voting isn't commonplace outside of Colorado.

Every election, we receive our ballots in the mail. It comes with a thick booklet that summarizes every state ballot measure being voted on in the ballot alongside the federal and state elections. The booklet explains in neutral language what the bill does, provides comprehensive pro and con arguments for voting for it, and closes with the actual text of the bill in case you want to peruse more than a summary.

This is sent to us a couple months in advance, and we can mail or drop off our ballots at our leisure. We do have in-person polling booths if you're untrusting of the mail-in system, don't have a mailing address, or aer just old-fashioned, but they're not overstuffed because only some people use them.

For years, I thought this was totally normal. Like, I thought it was federal practice, not state practice. And now at every election, I am shocked that other states haven't adopted this practice.

Drake's Razor: Never attribute to cold unfeeling logic that which can be equally explained by emotional outburst.
TacticalFox88 from USA Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
Jan 14th 2020 at 7:12:11 AM

https://twitter.com/hctrudo/status/1217085352487407616?s=21

Scoop: In a recording we obtained exclusively, a person conducting training calls for @Bernie Sanders' campaign instructed a volunteer to tell voters in NH, incorrectly, that he is the only 2020er who supports M 4 A.

Then the volunteer asked about @ewarren

But yeah he totally wouldnít lie about things he said in the past

New Survey coming this weekend!
Jan 14th 2020 at 7:13:26 AM

Florida has very lenient mail in ballots, too, actually.

Another thing about this Sanders/Warren camp feud I see as problematic? The complete disappearance of any organizing principle. How do people think this plays out in the next five years? How do you organize for future campaigns when you burn bridges?

There's a huge problem for me in that the far left has decided to see the liberal or even center left as the enemy.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 14th 2020 at 7:15:57 AM

Jan 14th 2020 at 7:17:02 AM

[up]x2 But wait, Warren did abandon M4A (at least from what I've read). She's now saying that choice is important and that she wants to start with just a Public Plan. Now personally I'm fine with either option, but I don't think that Sanders is lying in this situation.

[down] Okay that would be a lie then. Unless the Sanders campaign knew in advance (and they almost certainly wouldn't have).

Edited by DingoWalley1 on Jan 14th 2020 at 10:20:15 AM

M84 This is bad comedy. from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
This is bad comedy.
Jan 14th 2020 at 7:17:16 AM

Here's the Daily Beast article referenced in that tweet:

Warren and Sandersí Famous Friendship Finally Ices Over

[up]It was incorrect back in early November, which is when that happened. So the Sanders campaign was lying at the time. Warren shifted her stance in December.

Edited by M84 on Jan 14th 2020 at 11:21:46 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Jan 14th 2020 at 7:31:30 AM

Warren never backed off M 4 A. She said "We need to get there, I have a plan how," and maybe it's not the 'all or nothing' we frequently see from Sanders' camp, but that's not equivalent.

Jan 14th 2020 at 7:43:11 AM

We really shouldn't be too surprised this is happening. Warren and Bernie really aren't that different. And when you can't make a big argument on policy differences this close to Iowa, things start getting personal.

You listen to staffers from '08 and things got famously ugly between Obama and Clinton. Obama's future UN ambassador called Clinton a monster straight to the media. All because they couldn't think of a good way to stand out from each other on criminal justice or whatever.

I don't have my glasses so I can't read anything. I don't even know how I drove here.
M84 This is bad comedy. from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
This is bad comedy.
Jan 14th 2020 at 7:47:14 AM

There Can Be Only One I guess.

Edited by M84 on Jan 14th 2020 at 11:47:25 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany
Foreign Troper
Jan 14th 2020 at 7:47:49 AM

At this point, while I still prefer Sanders, I'd rather see him drop out and endorse Warren to unify their bases instead of continuing this senseless infighting.

Belief Makes You Stupid indeed.
M84 This is bad comedy. from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
This is bad comedy.
Jan 14th 2020 at 7:53:38 AM

That's not going to happen though. Sanders will not drop out as long as he thinks he has a chance to win.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Jan 14th 2020 at 7:56:35 AM

And his chances of winning right now are higher than Warren's.

Edited by Parable on Jan 14th 2020 at 7:56:42 AM

I don't have my glasses so I can't read anything. I don't even know how I drove here.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany
Foreign Troper
Jan 14th 2020 at 7:56:56 AM

Well the other way around would work too off course.

Belief Makes You Stupid indeed.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Relationship Status: It's complicated
Jan 14th 2020 at 7:58:55 AM

Hell, he might stay on past the point where he doesn't have a chance. He stayed in after Clinton had enough delegates locked down, I could easily see him holding on if Biden or Warren stage a break away.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

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