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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

akanesarumara Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: Abstaining
#287651: Aug 14th 2019 at 9:59:42 PM

[up] Yeah what surprised me though it probably shouldn't have was outright legalizing discrimination.

They did downplay it, cover for it, ridicule those arguing against it, create a perfect environment for it, acted in ways that enabled it... but they didn't outright legalize it before.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#287652: Aug 14th 2019 at 10:03:51 PM

No comment on the shooting in Philadelphia?

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#287653: Aug 14th 2019 at 10:06:00 PM

What is there to say? Guy thought he could shoot his way out of a narcotics warrant

Oh really when?
CookingCat Since: Jul, 2018
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#287655: Aug 15th 2019 at 1:00:06 AM

Whoever it was shot up the offices at around 3 A.M. There were still people in the offices at the time, and apparently the bullets barely avoided hitting someone.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#287656: Aug 15th 2019 at 1:10:12 AM

That is unfortunate and will not help anyone.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#287657: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:27:45 AM

Jesus Christ. A group of Jewish people was peacefully protesting an ICE facility in Rhode Island last night when an ICE guard drove his truck into them. Several people were struck and injured, and other guards pepper sprayed the rest of the protesters.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#287658: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:37:42 AM

I, again, state that ICE is beyond saving.

All of its institutional culture is evil and its members need to be arrested or fired en masse.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287659: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:40:20 AM

The driver of the truck wasn’t an ICE agent, he was a private prison employee.

That should make him a little easier to prosecute, at least.

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#287660: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:46:52 AM

The attack is on video.

I don't know whether to share it or not as its being shared by the victims.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#287661: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:53:25 AM

[up][up] Not necessarily. Private entities/actors can sometimes invoke qualified immunity when acting in a government context. General reminder that qualified immunity is garbage and needs to be written out of our laws.

On the morning of Nov. 23, 2004, Malaika Brooks was driving her 11-year-old son to school when Seattle police pulled her over for speeding. When the officers gave her a ticket and asked her to sign it, Brooks refused, believing that she had been wrongly pulled over and thinking, mistakenly, that her signature would be an admission of guilt. The officers threatened to throw her in jail, and when Brooks still declined to sign, a sergeant ordered her arrest.

To push Brooks to step out of her car, one of the officers pulled out a Taser and asked her if she knew what it was. She didn’t, but told the officer she was seven months pregnant. The officers chatted in front of her, casually discussing which part of her body they would tase: “Well, don’t do it in her stomach,” one of them said, “do it in her thigh.” The officers twisted Brooks’s arm behind her back and tased her three separate times—first on her thigh, then in the arm, and then in the neck—before dragging her into the street, laying her face down, and cuffing her.

Brooks sued the officers to hold them accountable for their conduct. Six federal judges agreed that the officers’ use of severe force absent any threat to their safety violated the U.S. Constitution. But those same judges dismissed her case, relying on a legal doctrine called “qualified immunity.”

That doctrine has become one of the chief ways in which law enforcement avoids accountability for misconduct and, as Brooks’s case demonstrates, even proven constitutional violations. Ordinary people—whether they’re doctors, lawyers, or construction workers—are expected to follow the law. If they violate someone else’s legal rights, they can be sued and required to pay for the injuries they’ve caused.

Under the doctrine of qualified immunity, public officials are held to a much lower standard. They can be held accountable only insofar as they violate rights that are “clearly established” in light of existing case law. This standard shields law enforcement, in particular, from innumerable constitutional violations each year. In the Supreme Court’s own words, it protects “all but the plainly incompetent or those who knowingly violate the law.” It is under this rule that officers can, without worry, drag a nonthreatening, seven months pregnant woman into the street and tase her three times for refusing to sign a piece of paper.

Qualified immunity permits law enforcement and other government officials to violate peoples’ constitutional rights with virtual impunity.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287662: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:59:29 AM

[up] They could try to invoke qualified immunity here, but any hallway-competent lawyer would tear it to shreds given that the individual in question was off-duty at the time and driving a truck through a crowd is not an accepted law enforcement strategy anywhere.

I’ll add that there’s a reason qualified immunity is enshrined in law. You shouldn’t be able to sue government employees for doing their jobs.

They should have sent a poet.
Kayeka Since: Dec, 2009
#287663: Aug 15th 2019 at 4:05:56 AM

I’ll add that there’s a reason qualified immunity is enshrined in law. You shouldn’t be able to sue government employees for doing their jobs.
I can't help but think that cases like these make it pretty obvious that you most definitely should be able to.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#287664: Aug 15th 2019 at 4:10:16 AM

The Washington Post actually had an illustrated explanation of qualified immunity a few years ago.

What is “qualified immunity,” and how does it work?

Disgusted, but not surprised
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287665: Aug 15th 2019 at 4:23:25 AM

[up][up] Yeah, I agree that was a bad ruling in that case. It isn’t always as clear cut, though.

For example, should you be able to sue an officer who injured you using only an appropriate amount of force?

They should have sent a poet.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#287666: Aug 15th 2019 at 4:25:32 AM

That would probably lead to an argument in court over what exactly was appropriate force.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Imca (Veteran)
#287667: Aug 15th 2019 at 4:29:35 AM

The fact that it was a private prison employ I think demonstraits the other reason (besides racisim) this has kept up for so long. :/

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#287668: Aug 15th 2019 at 4:29:56 AM

Yeah, here’s the thing, while qualified immunity makes sense in theory, in actual practice it has been used to shut down almost all accountability for police and prison guards. From the same article:

The Supreme Court invented qualified immunity in 1967, describing it as a modest exception for public officials who had acted in “good faith” and believed that their conduct was authorized by law. Fifteen years later, in Harlow v. Fitzgerald, the Court drastically expanded the defense. The protection afforded to public officials would no longer turn on whether the official acted in “good faith.” Instead, even officials who violate peoples’ rights maliciously will be immune unless the victim can show that his or her right was “clearly established.” Since the Harlow decision, the Court has made it exceedingly difficult for victims to satisfy this standard. To show that the law is “clearly established,” the Court has said, a victim must point to a previously decided case that involves the same “specific context” and “particular conduct.” Unless the victim can point to a judicial decision that happened to involve the same context and conduct, the officer will be shielded from liability.

The Supreme Court has recognized one exception to this rule, in Hope v. Pelzer. There, corrections officers disciplined a prisoner by handcuffing him to a hitching post for seven hours, with his hands above his shoulders, shirtless in the summer sun. At one point a guard taunted the prisoner by giving water to a guard dog in plain sight. Faced with these circumstances, and no prior case that had confronted similar facts, the Supreme Court ruled that the officers’ cruelty was “so obvious” that they should have had “fair warning” that their conduct violated the constitutional protection against cruel and unusual punishment. Far from creating a meaningful exception, however, courts frequently consider the circumstances in Hope to set the threshold for how egregious an officer’s behavior must be before he is considered to have “fair warning.”

And that is the law today: An officer who knowingly violates someone’s constitutional rights will generally be protected from suit unless the victim can identify previous judicial opinions that addressed the specific context and conduct. This is very far afield from what Congress sought to achieve in the Civil Rights Act. Instead of considering whether a person’s civil rights have been violated and, if so, providing that victim with a remedy, courts shut their doors to victims simply because no prior judicial opinion happened to involve the same facts.

...

As mentioned previously, in order to overcome the defense of qualified immunity, a victim must show that law enforcement violated “clearly established” law by pointing to a case arising in the same context and involving the same conduct. This has given courts a shortcut to resolving cases: Instead of reviewing, analyzing, and applying constitutional doctrine to determine whether a person’s rights were violated, a court can instead simply say that there has been no sufficiently similar case in the past. The result is that fewer courts ever resolve constitutional issues, and constitutional rights are hardly ever “clearly established.”

This shortcut has led to some outrageous results. In an opinion filed in March 2019, for instance, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit held that officers were immune from liability for the deliberate stealing of property simply because there was no “clearly established” case law governing the circumstances. In that case, police officers who had executed a search warrant seized about $275,000 in property: approximately $150,000 in cash, and another $125,000 in rare coins, but stated that they had seized only $50,000. In other words, the officers attempted to steal $225,000 while on the job.

The Ninth Circuit dismissed the lawsuit against the officers, granting qualified immunity because it had “never before addressed” whether officers executing a warrant could steal property. And, according to the court, it was not sufficiently “obvious” to police officers that stealing property under the guise of executing a search warrant violated an individual’s constitutional rights. As a result, the Ninth Circuit said that it “need not” even address whether the officers’ stealing was illegal.

This example should show the degree to which qualified immunity opens the door for wrongdoing on the part of law enforcement. No reasonable officer needs a case to tell them that stealing property is wrong. But it’s worse than that. Because the court did not say that the conduct was illegal, the law is still not clearly established that officers may not deliberately steal property when exercising a search. So an officer could, again, claim immunity for the same behavior.

As Fifth Circuit Judge Don Willett described this phenomenon: Victims of abuse “must produce precedent even as fewer courts are producing precedent. Important constitutional questions go unanswered precisely because those questions are yet unanswered. Courts then rely on that judicial silence to conclude there’s no equivalent case on the books. No precedent = no clearly established law = no liability.”

In other words, Judge Willett said, “Heads defendants win, tails plaintiffs lose.”

Also, I’m following reports from the protesters last night and they say police at the scene refused to arrest the truck driver and refused to take witness statements.

Edited by wisewillow on Aug 15th 2019 at 8:23:31 AM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#287669: Aug 15th 2019 at 8:13:04 AM

Israel has blocked Reps. Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib from entering the country after Trump urged Israel to do so on Twitter.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#287670: Aug 15th 2019 at 8:18:35 AM

The explanation of what "qualified immunity" means (government employees shouldn't be sued for doing their jobs) sounds dangerously close to the Nuremberg defense of "I was just following orders", which was ultimately ruled as invalid in the case of clear crimes against international law, especially crimes against humanity and war crimes.

... On a different note, if a video game revolves around saving what is obviously a No Celebrities Were Harmed representation of Donald Trump from an assassination attempt during what appears to be his 2020 presidential campaign, but there are such things as Trump being named "Rump" (as in, one's buttocks), his campaign slogans including stuff like "Fund the bankrupt billionaire!" and "Give me your money so I can take credit for it", and the game's physics engine is clearly bare-bones to the point of causing hilarious clipping and bizarre movements when you try to do almost anything other than walk/run in a straight line without hitting any obstacles, does this indicate that the game's developer is not a fan of Trump and thus is (un)subtly making fun of him?

Edited by MarqFJA on Aug 15th 2019 at 6:22:09 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#287671: Aug 15th 2019 at 8:20:41 AM

[up]It's more of a rules patch on the original law allowing people to sue government employees for mistakes in the first place. A rules patch that may itself need a patch.

Disgusted, but not surprised
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287672: Aug 15th 2019 at 8:23:06 AM

[up][up][up][up] So wouldn’t that suggest a tightening of the requirements for immunity, rather than striking it from the law entirely? Don’t forget it’s not just cops it protects but anyone under government employment. You shouldn’t be able to sue a food inspector for shutting down your restaurant, for example.

Even as far as police are concerned, given the nature of the job there’s obviously going to be some things you can’t sue for.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 15th 2019 at 8:25:01 AM

They should have sent a poet.
TobiasDrake Queen of Good Things, Honest (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Queen of Good Things, Honest
#287673: Aug 15th 2019 at 8:26:36 AM

You should totally be able to sue a food inspector for shutting down your restaurant. If you have demonstrable reason to believe that their shutting down of your restaurant was, for instance, racially motivated, you should be able to take them to court over it.

"Being able to sue" and "Guaranteed to win the suit" are not the same thing.

Lawsuits are like labor unions; they're one of the tools that the lower class has to push back against overreaches from the upper class.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 15th 2019 at 9:29:16 AM

My Tumblr. Currently talking Dragon Ball and working my way back to Danganronpa V3.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287674: Aug 15th 2019 at 8:30:14 AM

[up] That’s not really the same thing as qualified immunity, though. Theoretically, at least, qualified immunity prevents government employees from being sued for acts conducted in a legitimate legal capacity. So, to use that example, a suit over racial bias in restaurant inspection would be one thing, suing the inspector just because you didn’t like what happened would be another.

The reason it’s usually most relevant for police is that a police officer may have to hurt someone in the normal course of their duties.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 15th 2019 at 8:32:25 AM

They should have sent a poet.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#287675: Aug 15th 2019 at 8:31:52 AM

[up][up] Ding ding ding. If qualified immunity applies, the entire case is dead. No suing, no matter what the facts are. And currently qualified immunity almost always applies. I’ll also note the ridiculous standard is basically that a government actor can get qualified immunity so long as they didn’t deliberately break a law they definitely knew about.

The law is vague but on the facts, it’s obvious the government actor did something awful? Too bad.

[up] Your optimism is, uh... misplaced. My civil rights law class was infuriating. They almost never had to hurt someone, they were incompetent at best and vicious at worst, but they got qualified immunity 98% of the time.

Edited by wisewillow on Aug 15th 2019 at 8:35:05 AM


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