Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in the LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion Thread
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Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.
Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.
Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:53:59 PM
Only Insane Man
EDIT: Herp, thought this was my PM inbox for some reason.
Anyway. In response to ![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
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Better the Devil You Know doesn't really have anything to do with this when you could choose, y'know, no devils, and just not support hate groups.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
SILENCE YOU
edited 28th Nov '12 1:53:05 PM by Foolamancer
"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
Impossible Gender Forge
Quite probably.
I know. Which is why I said this situation isn't as clear-cut.
Only Insane Man
And I don't see what's so hard to understand about what I've said, particularly since I'm not "fishing" for anything. But if I have to go over it again, so be it.
Point one, you stated that religiously-influenced behaviors (significantly, bullying) cannot cause people to commit suicide.
Point two. You stated that some religiously-influenced behaviors can commit people to commit suicide.
Point three, this is self-contradictory.
Not that hard to understand.
No, I'm pretty sure this is another case of you missing the point. Continuing to support a group which does things like imprison homosexuals just for being homosexual on the basis that they do some other things that you agree with is like supporting Mussolini's regime because he at least made things operate efficiently, despite the, y'know, fascism and siding with Hitler thing.
Doing a handful of things that you agree with does not change the group that the group commits supports reprehensible ideals. You might as well support a group whose rallying cry is "MURDER ALL THE THINGS" because they run a good animal shelter.
"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
Impossible Gender Forge
Your opinion is the only one that matters to you. *
My opinion as a person who they wish to put in prison is, not surprisingly, negative.
So, what are they good for? What do they lobby for that no other group does?
Preferably a group that does not advocate things you have mentioned to openly despise*?
edited 28th Nov '12 2:23:07 PM by Matues
So basically in your mind in order for the statement to be harmful it has to make someone drop dead in their tracks. Even though the scientific studies stated have shown that well meaning repetition not intended to bully but to simply inform on religious beliefs is enough to drive someone to suicide. Those studies you linked didn't disprove anything other than the fact that it's complicated and that some people are more at risk in the first place. They did not disprove that telling someone that homosexuality is a sin can lead to their death.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Only Insane Man
So your argument is "Wrong, I did exactly what you said I did"?
Honest question. Are you a native English speaker?
Yes. You contradicted yourself.
First you said that bullying, "let alone Christian disapproval", cannot cause someone to commit suicide. No qualifiers. These two things can't make people commit suicide.
Then you said that "Christian disapproval", which can and does include bullying, does drive people to suicide (whether or not you want to argue over it including bullying; your previous statement implied that it does, but you're contradicting yourself either way).
No one said that they were. The former isn't bullying. The latter is. You said that both things, without qualification, cannot make someone commit suicide.
"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
Impossible Gender Forge
I realized that what I said could be taken the wrong way.
Such are the limits of a textual medium. *
I don't mind if you think I'm sinful for wanting to be with someone*, I just object to you being part of a group that wishes to strike down my rights while claiming to be supportive of my, and other people's, rights.
It seems paradoxical.
edited 28th Nov '12 2:31:36 PM by Matues
I'm an Irene!
It doesn't change the fact that Homosexuality was never called a Sin in the Bible. Homosexual Sex was. That's an entirely different kettle of fish. Both are still awful, but they are purposely using incorrect wording as an excuse to persecute people who are doing absolutely nothing wrong.
FRC frankly, is disgusting, and is no different from being racist, sexist, or otherwise. No amount of what else they do will change this. They are a hate group, and the few good things they do cannot change that fact. They're persecuting people for existing. They deserve no support since they're against basic human rights. I'm not even talking about Gay Marriage. I'm talking about Homosexuals Existing. How can you say they are worth supporting at all? Unless you do not believe in basic human decency, which I don't believe is true. So do you really want to support these guys?
Quest 64 thread
Princess Ymir's knightess
You keep saying that, but it's not like anyone tells you not to.
Only Insane Man
Also, Obamacare is not a hate group.
"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
But saying that "Homosexuality is a sin" is tantamount to saying you are inherently flawed in a way that God abhors and there's nothing you can do about it. The statement alone carries those evil connotations without you having to spell them out. It's enough that God sees them as an abomination to effect their self esteem and cause that hopelessness.
After all, if God thinks your very existence is a sin, the best thing to do is to end it.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Only Insane Man
Hm... whether or not to send this thread spiraling out of control down the slippery slope of an argument about free will versus determinism and omniscience...
it would be so easy
edited 28th Nov '12 2:48:50 PM by Foolamancer
"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
I'm an Irene!
You were comparing Obamacare to a Hate Group, Maxima. They clearly are not anywhere alike. At all.
But anyway, I'm glad you're thinking about it. 
But people do think it anyway, and that's why there's suicides due to people calling it a Sin. It's disgusting more because people call it a Sin. It's the cause of it. If people stop spreading this lie(and it's a lie since it's purposely saying something that is definitely not in the book), the suicide rates for those among the homosexuals/bisexuals(since it's relevant to both) would go down. It does not mean they all would, but even that small bit is a good start.
edited 28th Nov '12 2:52:21 PM by Hydronix
Quest 64 thread
@ Starship: I know you are, and yet, that's the sentiment that you help encourage by branding homosexuality as sinful. I just don't think you ever really stopped to look at how it sounds to someone who is homosexual.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
scratching at .8, just hopin'
I accept your apology. It's a far harder thing to do than most people recognize.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
I don't think he did, but that's beside the point. Better the Devil You Know (or agree with more) is not an invalid idea, if that's what you're criticizing.
Which isn't to say I think this current situation is anywhere near as clear-cut.