Proposed renaming: Double Subversion

Before you all get up in arms, yes, I have read the "When to rename a trope" conversation, and have thought about this for a while.

The thing is, back in my noob days, when I first came across Double Subversion, I thought it meant a trope being partially subverted, and then the rest of it being subverted. Needless to say, a lot of Double Subversion examples made no sense until I actually looked it up.

With this in mind, I think the meaning of Double Subversion is not adequately explained by the title. The only reason us veteran tropers get it is because it's been with us for so long. But as a title, it's not exactly succinct.

So, I'm proposing a retitling to Reverted Trope. Thoughts? Disagreements?

"Get me a gun, I'm a soldier; but put me in that suit and I'm a superhero." - Gunnery Sgt Roberta "Bobbie" Draper MMC

The trope is subverted...and then the subversion is subverted. It's not that complicated.

I think "reverted" is even more confusing. Reverted from what? For calling something "reverted" to make any sense, the person has to know what it was changed to, that it's being reverted back from.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

I'll propose Subverted Subversion as a redirect Just for Fun, but I don't see any point to the OP's request.

@ Discar: You say it's not that complicated, but are you saying that because it's second nature to you now, or because you really think it's easy to understand?

@ Madrugada: Open to suggestions. Reverted Trope is an option, but if you think it's more confusing, what would be less confusing?

"Get me a gun, I'm a soldier; but put me in that suit and I'm a superhero." - Gunnery Sgt Roberta "Bobbie" Draper MMC

I can't think of anything that would be less confusing, because I don't think Double Subverted is confusing.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

It's not complicated because... it's not complicated.

A subversion is where it looks like the trope is going to be played straight, but it isn't.

A double subversion is when it looks like the trope has been subverted but then the trope gets played straight, thus subverting the subversion. Hence, Double Subversion. I understood that on my first trawl through TV Tropes.

edited 16th May '11 7:05:38 PM by SalFishFin

I understanded too, as my first experience with it was on the Playing With pages.

Please, no rename. A Trope Trope should be left alone unless it has a huge problem.

@Sal: So then, with a Double Subversion, the initial subversion is more or less a Red Herring?

I call Subverted Herring.

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

Would Subverted Subversion be good for a redirect?

Australia The country with a 2 party system But all the power with independents

Redirects are free.

No to renaming.

Fake Subversion?

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

Nice to see Subverted Subversion is a blue link. Redirects Are Free, and it appears these are needed.

I think Reverted Trope would be a legit redirect, at least for the editors. This is a wiki, after all. On a wiki, reversion is to remove an edit in such a way as to leave the page as it was before the first edit. So a Reverted Trope would be a trope which started to be subverted, but abruptly had the subversion "removed."

And yes, either of those would be better than Double Subverted in clarity. Some of us keep thinking it could be a trope that is subverted in two different ways, or a trope that is subverted Beyond the Impossible — either of which is the opposite of what we mean to mean.

To put it another way: Double Subverted trope examples are exactly as legit to list as examples that are simply played straight.

There is a fine line between recklessness and courage — Paul McCartney

Reverted Trope sounds too similar to Subverted Trope for my tastes. A show is going to use a trope, then suddenly it doesn't.

Australia The country with a 2 party system But all the power with independents

Well, that's not really a valid interpretation because "partially subverted" isn't a thing that exists.

Infinite Tree: an experimental story

"A show appears to be using a trope, but suddenly doesn't" is Subverted Trope, and we are fond of that one.

"A show appears to be subverting a trope, but suddenly doesn't" is Double Subverted.

There is a fine line between recklessness and courage — Paul McCartney

I don't see anything unclear about the current name.

How this name is unclear is a mystery to me, and a Trope Trope should never be renamed unless there is enormous misuse. I don't even see why it needs redirects, but okay.

Well hey, Subverted Subversion was born out of this, and that is a perfect explanation of Double Subversion. I'm happy with that as a redirect, and I hope it gets used.

edited 17th May '11 4:08:49 AM by ginsengaddict

"Get me a gun, I'm a soldier; but put me in that suit and I'm a superhero." - Gunnery Sgt Roberta "Bobbie" Draper MMC

Ready to close this then?