This thread exists to discuss British politics.
Political issues related to Northern Ireland and the Crown Dependencies (the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man) are also considered on-topic here if there's no more appropriate OTC thread for them.
If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations
and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.
As with other OTC threads, off-topic posts may be thumped or edited by the moderators.
- There is a dedicated thread to discuss LGBTQ+ rights in the United Kingdom. That doesn't mean it's always off-topic here, but unless something's directly linked to political events, that's probably a better thread for it.
- There's also a separate thread to talk about your favourite British Prime Ministers.
Recent political stuff:
- The vote to see if Britain should adopt Alternative Voting has failed.
- Lib Dems lose lots of councils and councillors, whilst Labour make the majority of the gains in England.
- The Scottish National Party do really well in the elections.
A link to the BBC politics page containing relevant information.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 3rd 2023 at 11:15:30 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I wasn't the one saying it. CORBYN was the one claiming it in the interview I linked. And I was pointing out that he is dead wrong about it. But I am glad that you agree with me that he was B Sing.
And the Tories which currently speak up against their own party and draw a lot of hatred on themselves would frankly be stupid to not vote for what they are speaking up for when the question comes up. I honestly don't understand why you think that they would act that irrational. If for no other reason than that being a great way to ruin their own career.
Edited by Swanpride on Jan 14th 2019 at 7:20:36 AM
Figure of Hourai
If that's what you're saying, it's really not clear.
As for why they'd be irrational? Well, after this, when it goes badly, they can use their feigned objection to claim that they were reasonable all along and can be trusted with power etc. Regardless of whether they actually stood up for it or not.
Up until the moment they actually vote, no point relying on them.
Avatar Source
The link should really be between freedom of establishment and the undermining of worker's rights and collective bargaining, but for some reason they didn't formally include that one as a fifth freedom despite the ECJ ruling strikes are only legal if they don't infringe on it, AKA "you can strike, but only if it doesn't make multinational capital TOO uncomfortable and only if you can't negotiate anymore" which rather defeats the point in many cases. Viking Line, Laval etcetera.
Free movement of labour as such is not a problem for Britain, it's a problem for all the countries who have lost their working-age population and future tax base to emigration, we shouldn't be complaining about THAT, we should be complaining about... pretty much every other freedom on the list apart from maybe Goods, because enshrining capital flight as a right is insane.
She/Her Pronouns
Like, I really do understand not liking Corbyn, I really do, but continuing to antagonize the occupants of this thread about it doesn't seem very helpful. This conversation has happened dozens of times, I don't see the purpose in continually broaching the subject.
The Tories are not reasonable. They act more like Republicans than your CDU. You are honestly giving more leeway to a bunch of people that support the current ruling party that haven't done anything to earn that trust over the leader of the opposition, while simultaneously dumping the responsibility of opposing the Tory Government on the same man you explicitly don't trust.
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
That is more a logic you can use for Labour members. For a Torie, there is really no winning in pointing the finger at your own party, especially if your own constituency has voted leave. But even if you are right, this would even be MORE of a reason to force a vote on the notion of a people's vote. Than they have to show their colours.
You really don't have to explain to me what the Tories are. Hell, I consider the right wing of the Tories equal to the Af D. I don't defend the Tories as a party. I am pointing out that currently, Labour is perceived to not doing enough to stop Brexit, and Corbyn is one of the various reasons why. And I brought him up because we just had one of the rare interviews with him. So, pure Corbyn. Nothing which might be misquoted, nothing taken out of context. And what he is saying doesn't bode well for a People's vote. That is my only focus here.
I am not about to rehash old discussions, but if we get new information, it should be subject of the Thread, shouldn't it?
Edited by Swanpride on Jan 14th 2019 at 7:49:33 AM
Figure of Hourai
Nah, they can just point at how the papers turned on them without actually doing anything. Nice and convenient politicking without any repercussions.
Bringing up Corbyn all the time misses the regular point that the Labour Party isn't top down, so exactly what he says or thinks about an issue is only of advisory importance.
What's mostly important is how strictly he follows parliamentary procedure. Which is very. Which is slow.
Avatar Source
She/Her Pronouns
...What is Labour supposed to do? They've been opposing the Tories as much as possible, but they do not have power. This conversation, with slight variation, I see every time I check into this thread, and that's been true for months now.
Also, I'd read the description of the video, if I were you. Its...something...
Edited by AzurePaladin on Jan 14th 2019 at 10:57:42 AM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Disasturbator
"Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn interviewed on a range of topics, with Brexit dominating. The Labour party want the UK to remain in the EU, and their proposed policies are such that the UK would be BINO Brexit, we'll stay in in all but name. Labour are no different to the CO Nservatives or Lib Dems - they are all pissing on Brexit voters for their New World Order mates,"
good lord my IQ dropped a few points reading that
New theme music also a box
The Lord Mogg, former Director-General for Internal Market and Financial Services at the European Commission, retired from Parliament today.
Colonel The Viscount Slim, former chairman of Peek Plc and president of the Burma Star Association, died two days ago aged 91.
Edited by TommyR01D on Jan 14th 2019 at 8:42:18 AM
Where did you read that?
On a completely different note...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvzTOmEPYyE
And interesting You Tube video in which someone does the math regarding how much money he has already paid to get British citizenship. I was kind of baffled, to be honest. Sounds like the Tories are not only creating a hostile environment, they are also using immigrants as cash cows.
Edited by Swanpride on Jan 14th 2019 at 8:23:45 AM
It's the video description from the first video you posted, the Marr interview with Corbyn.
We keep telling you, they're Tories. This is what they do. Zero surprise there.
Edited by DeathorCake on Jan 14th 2019 at 4:41:00 PM
Ah, that makes sense. (The Marr show is pretty awful overall. But it is so rare to get life interviews with Corbyn).
Honestly, why are you all trying to convince me that the Tories are bad? I KNOW that. I also think that putting forward a people's vote is necessarily, and there is a chance that enough Tories will support it to get it through, even if it is out of self-interest.
Edited by Swanpride on Jan 14th 2019 at 8:50:36 AM
Captain of the Dead City
I think that it's partly to do with the fact that your, admittedly reserved, confidence in the Tory Remainers kinda revolve around them doing what they have a very strong history, tradition and tendency of not doing - that is, rebelling against their own government.
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
It's less about confidence, more about a lack of other options.
Servant of the Omnissiah
At this point, I'm just eating some popcorn watching the Tories implode. The handful of them that have some dignity are trying to jump ship, most of the rest are just slaves to the JRM gang of hoodlums, and don't even start on May's terrified hangers-on.
Corbyn, though not the best pick, is the lesser of two weevils. So there is that.
> What about the Lib-Dems
I've got a lot of words for that question. All of them being cuss words that will almost certainly earn me a ban. So no.
Edited by TechPriest90 on Jan 14th 2019 at 12:52:22 PM
I hold the secrets of the machine.
Captain of the Dead City
Lack of other options?
... are you trying to say that, in your opinion, the best hope for Remain lies in the Tories somehow rebelling to get a People's Vote on the table, over Corbyn becoming PM and steering the boat off the Brexit train once his soft Brexit deal plans are dashed by the EU?
And yeah, sod the Lib Dems. There's the whole 2010 thing, and then they're also fething Centrists.
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Figure of Hourai
There will come a point where I will stop holding the Lib Dems last stint against them, but it will also require them to stop the false equivalences and acting like they should seriously entertain working with thr Tories.
You know, since they were formed by Labour offshoots joining the Liberals.
Avatar Source
As long as Labour doesn't get their sh... together either…
Honestly, they have a golden opportunity there, and they squander it. They will seen as the "midwife of Brexit" so to speak if they don't get off the fence.
Disasturbator
midwife of Brexit conjurers up the weirdest images
New theme music also a box
A procrastination in of itself
Thing is while standing out of the way is a good way to avoid blame for Brexit, midwifeing it is the best way to get the chance to kill it before it develops.
Labour can stop Brexit, instead of letting it happen and avoiding blame for it.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Currently they are helping the narrative that there is a better withdrawal agreement to be had, May just didn't try hard enough. And the narrative that freedom of movement is a bad thing. And the narrative that the EU is at fault for the UK's train system.
But also the suggestion that there is a connection between freedom of movement and the "undermining of workers rights" is just wrong.
Okay, I've just watched that link to Corbyn's interview. You've completely misinterpreted what he said. He outright states that leaving the EU ends freedom of movement. What he does say is that any negotiation over having a customs union and Single Market access will naturally require freedom of movement to be on the table (as we all know on this thread, in those two circumstances, it would have to be).
Okay, quick run down of worker exploitation by British businesses: immigrant labour from poorer countries is used to undermine UK worker rights for both nationals and immigrant workers (especially the latter). It's been a long issue in the UK. Corbyn's position is that, instead of ending freedom of movement, worker protects should be strengthened (such as collective bargining and salary power) to stop the exploitation.
Here's one example. 52 weeks of employment gives full-time worker rights (including salary protections). Vulnerable people (especially immigrant workers) are often trapped into contracts that hire them for 51 weeks, terminate them for a few, then rehire them. It forces them into unstable part-time patterns in a way that strips them of full rights and prevents them from having the time to look for other work.
What he says in the link you provided is exactly what we've been telling you in this thread. I'm not sure why you think it's different.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 14th 2019 at 3:22:30 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Captain of the Dead City
Nine and a half hours until 7:00pm.
It's gonna be a long day.
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Oh, bother.
So Gove apparently referenced Game of Thrones of all things to convince M Ps to back the deal.
"I think if we don’t vote for the deal tonight, in the words of Jon Snow, “winter is coming.”"
This is the best he can do? Basically comparing the EU to the White Walkers or something?
The timing is also off since it's January. Winter is already in the UK.
Also, it's not just Jon Snow who says that. That's the creed of House Stark in general. Nearly all of them say that at one point or another.
Edited by M84 on Jan 15th 2019 at 5:41:49 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
But, they're also Tories, which is a pretty big question on how far they're willing to go for moral principles.
You're definitely moving the goalposts if you're saying it's impossible to have freedom of movement without being an EU member state, because that is possible and has been pointed out from the very beginning of this mess as one of the preconditions to single market access which is why this isn't working.
Avatar Source