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Recent political stuff:
- The vote to see if Britain should adopt Alternative Voting has failed.
- Lib Dems lose lots of councils and councillors, whilst Labour make the majority of the gains in England.
- The Scottish National Party do really well in the elections.
A link to the BBC politics page containing relevant information.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 3rd 2023 at 11:15:30 AM
Disunited for Change.
Figure of Hourai
Second Brexit vote would be a "betrayal of democracy". Exercising democracy: now a betrayal of democracy.
And apparently sparing the feelings of brexit voters is important even if they've become a minority.
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Isn't it technically the third already? I mean, the UK did decide to join the EU at one point, right?
You're forgetting that the first vote is the absolute will of the people and cannot be countermanded even if the people say so.
"Yup. That tasted purple."
Well it can't be the third vote to decide if we want to leave the EU. The first was if we wanted to join...
Changing tack momentarily, what do you think would be the reaction if Corbyn were to resign over the issue with anti-Semitism in the party?
Leaving aside the nature of the anti-Semitism, I kind of get the feeling that ditching Corbyn would only make things worse. But neither does he have the capacity to decisively resolve the issue. Labour really are in a rock and a hard place with this one, and I don't see it getting better anytime soon.
Per my previous comment, I think the whole scandal is a manufactured controversy that requires you to put a lot of faith in questionable sources with a history of cherrypicking and misrepresenting. Also, "existential threat to Jewish life"? Really?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
I mean, Corbyn lacks the ability to decisively resolve it because very little is based in reality, and what is real is pretty much just ‘supports Palestine and takes a dim view of Israel’s policies there’. Which I’m not entirely sure we actually want to get rid of, particularly since all signs indicate that Israel is presently gearing up for something big and unpleasant.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Figure of Hourai
I admit I haven't really been following the controversy much, seeing as it seems firmly rooted in not supporting Israel, making somewhat questionable associations as a result, and once saying Zionism.
And something about repeated demands about adopting international guidelines on anti-semitism, and I'm not even sure what the issue there is. I think something involving Israel again?
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Pronounced YAK-you-luss
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Basically, yeah. The IHRA definition is recent, controversial, and intended to be descriptive rather than prescriptive, so adopting it will always be problematic, but the Labour NEC did accept it in full. What they reworked a bit was the list of examples afterwards. Mostly, they used stronger language to make the list prescriptive, but they also removed a couple of controversial passages that claimed that criticism of Israel by comparing it to repressive, institutionally racist states like apartheid South Africa or Nazi Germany was anti-Semitic. This would have been a no-go in general because, well, Israel is a repressive ethnostate (a Jewish state in a place where a whole lot of non-Jews happen to live is always going to be problematic, and the current government have been radicalising dangerously fast), and in particular because Corbyn and his inner circle have spent a lot of time hanging out with people who make those comparisons (including Holocaust survivor Hajo Meyer, who the media tried to smear as an anti-Semite for comparing Israeli policy to his own experiences in Germany), and adopting the full, unaltered IHRA example list would give the Labour right useful material for a coup.
Figure of Hourai
Can't help but feel it would be incredibly stupid in any general case for a political party to hamstring its ability to talk about another nation.
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This is why I didn't want to talk about the causes of the controversy: I get the feeling that there is nothing productive to say.
I just want to explore the hypothetical situation of Corbyn stepping down because of it.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Corbyn stepping down because of this isn’t really a realistic enough possibility to be much worth discussing. Ill health (he’s sprightly, but still pushing seventy in a stressful job) and some right-wing loon Jo Coxing him seem far more likely, if we’re talking about reasons for him to vacate his current office.
What's precedent ever done for us?
https://www.economist.com/the-world-this-week/2018/09/01/kals-cartoon
This cartoon really summons up the current situation in the UK.
Having just watched Josie Long on Netflix (Live at the BBC) I have to say I am just feeling some serious ennui. After having a good giggle. And although I dip into Twitter, I realise the left seem to be thinking that resharing worthy stories and making pithy comments is enough.
I just want to know how we stop this. The right have the power, the influence, the connections and the arrogance. The fact no one is even looking at this and going "um, wot?"
Or saying "it was illegal!" or "It's clearly a Russian sponsored agenda" even with all those flags...
I am worried - we're going to crash out, the disaster capitalists are going to clean up and then after a decade we'll limp back into the bloc or be owned mostly by America.
The media isn't reporting on anyone going "um, wot?" for the obvious reason that it's 80% controlled by pro-Brexit moguls.
Precisely that. It's depressing, as I said, because all the agencies and supposed "4th estate" stuff that checks power is sidelined or stacked with cronies.
I think what a lot of Joe Public just doesn't get is how corrupt UK institutions actually are. Or if they do it leads to apathy.
But apparently it doesn't count because they want it done so as not to block any and all criticism of the Israeli state.
"Yup. That tasted purple."
Figure of Hourai
Anyone pushing for it to go that far should just be ignored. A major political party cannot adopt it as a prescriptive measure that none of its members are able to criticise another nation, otherwise should they gain power it would be literally impossible to do foreign policy.
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From a few days ago:
Arron Banks sparks Tory unease with ‘Blue Wave’ of recruits
The Tory leadership has dismissed Mr Banks as “desperate for attention” but his initiative has rattled the party.
Many Remain-leaning M Ps fear that his Blue Wave could become a rightwing version of the Momentum movement, in which supporters of Jeremy Corbyn have flooded the Labour membership over the past two years, changing the party into a much more leftwing group. They worry that this could make the Tory party more hardline on issues ranging from the EU to crime and punishment and public spending.
Stephen Dorrell, a former Conservative cabinet minister, said the Banks campaign had to be stopped. “His approach would turn a great national party into a single-issue pressure group with no more moral authority than a rump of Ukip,” he said.
But Nadine Dorries, a Eurosceptic backbencher, said she welcomed new members in her seat in Bedfordshire: “Not least because they are mostly former Conservative members.”
The United Kingdom has issued an arrest warrant for the two individuals they have evidence for being connected to the murder of Sergei and Yulia Skripal, russian nationals.
Telegraph article on the subject.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Attempted murder, unless they came back for another go that I wasn’t aware of.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Well, there was this one woman who died. She might not be the intended target, but it is still murder.
The Lord Northbourne and The Baroness Blood retired from Parliament yesterday.
Edited by sgamer82 on Aug 31st 2018 at 1:38:40 PM