Christian tropers, join together!

Snapping, Snarling Thoughts. this one's nice and comforting

Pass It On. i've been there. both sides, too.

Food for thought:

http://www.georgeleonard.com/articles/is-yahweh-a-boy.htm

Corine. never forget how special you are to God.

Take Time to Ponder. faith is a powerful thing. trust me, i've seen it in action.

something different this time around: a quote i came across

edited 5th Aug '13 6:31:09 AM by crimsonstorm15

Childhood Beginnings. "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." —Proverbs 22:6.

Dropping in to say Hi.

Hi!

Hi Soban.

yo :)

Hi everyone!

I'm a Christian, but was just barely raised as one (as in, follow the Ten Commandments & that's pretty much it - I didn't understand the concept of the Trinity until I was a teenager). My parents come from different denominations (Dad from Roman Catholic & Mom from something weird & very strict) & neither practiced when I was a kid. And when I'd ask religious questions, I'd get 2 different answers & my parents would argue. Didn't help that the evil & mean (read: sociopathic) kids that got kicked out of the Catholic schools & had to come to my public school would lie to me about God (along with other abuse) & twisted my ideas of God & religion all up for years. That resulted in me being a Nay-Theist for most of my life. My mom started going to our local United Church of Christ, when I was a teenager. I think that's when I got my first real Bible, too. I went sometimes, but every time I go to church, I end up crying uncontrollably. That scares people, but one woman told me I do that cause the Spirit is upon me & I think she's right. I just get overwhelmed. I feel so bad. I see how horrible humans are & how great God's love is & how we so don't deserve it & I just feel so guilty & terrible & sad that we hurt God so much. So, I haven't gone to church in years, cause it hurts too much.

God is very important to me & always has been. As I said, I was barely raised Christian, but my dad's family is Roman Catholic, so that was the only denomination I was exposed to as a child. But my grandma was also interested in some occult things - astrology, numerology, superstitions, old Strega practices passed down through the family/from the old country, fortune-telling, etc. My mom's family lives states away & I rarely see them. Since asking family questions would cause arguments, differing answers, & more questions than answers - I decided to start doing my own religious research as a young child (5 or 6). I walked into the mythology aisle in the library & stayed there for many years. It took me a long time to finally start venturing into the "religion proper" section, but I've read a bit from there, too. As a consequence, I know a lot about & love comparative mythology & comparative religion. I guess my "natural religion," that I had before I started researching, was Christianity in general. In part from the little religious instruction I got from my family & since the United States is a Christian nation - as in, our culture is predominantly Christian. "In God We Trust" & all that. But I've always had a strong conscience & most of my life have felt an internal, spiritual guidance that I attribute to God (The Holy Spirit in particular). Since I had painful experiences with Christianity, I left that subject for last, in my studies. And was comforted & strengthened to learn that the ideas I've held dear & strongly my whole life (& that seem in direct contradiction to how the world is), are in fact, Christian. So, that reassures me that they are correct. It strengthened my faith. Thank You, God. Amen.

So, for most of my childhood, I didn't worship the Ancient Greek gods & goddesses, but my outlook & mindset were that it was likely something like that was afoot. It made more sense to me that Divinity wasn't perfect & had flaws & could even be bad & there were competing & warring interests & they effect our lives in drastic ways for no good reason, capricious reasons, or no reason at all. That made sense to me, looking at the world, as a child. By the time I became a teenager, I became a Wiccan. Well - I was actually a Nay-Theist who WANTED to believe in Wicca, but really didn't. I did occult stuff, as well. I briefly became a Buddhist, but that's far too difficult for me. I could never get over the Catch 22 of it - how can one eradicate all desire in oneself, when wanting to eradicate all desire is a desire in & of itself? I should probably mention that I'm very philosophical, as well. I was a Stoic as a child. Not so much, now. You can only keep so much inside before you crack & it comes flooding out, like a tidal wave.

I would fluctuate back & forth in believing in the Christian God (usually after He would save my life in a Religious Russian Roulette event). But it was usually in a Nay-Theist mindset (as in, I felt like He wouldn't let my life get any better, but He wouldn't let me die, cause He loved torturing me). In my 20's, I became an Agnostic & then an Atheist. That was the most depressed I ever was in my entire life. I didn't see a point to anything. Well, God saved my life, once again. And I finally saw that so much of what I've been taught & thought as a Nay-Theist is NOT true Christianity. God IS good. I still don't understand why he let all the really bad things in my life happen, but, well, maybe I will in time. In any event, I've finally "made up with" God. And now I'm searching for true information about the Christian God.

tl;dr

I want to be baptized. Completely immersed. But I don't feel that Catholicism is the denomination for me. Can I just be baptized as a Christian? Do I have to pick a denomination? Can't I just be a "general Christian"? And do I have to join a church to be baptized? I don't really like going to church. How do I go about this? Help, please?

Thank you for listening & I appreciate any advice. HUGS!

If you look up the Old Testament carefully, the divinity of YHWH there is flawed too. I mean, it was not uncommon for prophets to call him out and make him change his opinion. His powers are limited too in some way. Even YHWH's favor could help Hebrews not triumph over iron armed enemies in one situation.

edited 8th Aug '13 3:26:35 AM by CaptainKatsura

Yeah, Katsura, the Old Testament God (which I equate with The Father), frankly, scares the crap out of me. I have the most problems with that part of the Trinity. Which is who most of my Nay Theism is directed at. I'm cool with Jesus & The Holy Spirit, but The Father - whoa. I've been thinking about that, lately. Like, God is said to be perfect & not make mistakes & to know everything, etc. - but that doesn't appear to be the case in The Bible, especially the OT. I mean - if God knows everything & doesn't make mistakes, well - I was going to say why did Eve eat the apple, but that was free will. But there are instances where God planned things & then something happened to upset His plan that he didn't foresee. At least it seems that way. I know what you mean about Him talking with people & them being like, "What, wait? Uh, can't we do it like this?" & then Him agreeing. My favorite examples of that are with Abraham. I really think he should've gotten God down to 1 good person being in Sodom & Gomorrah. I hope God regards the way I talk to Him, like He did with Abraham. I'm always afraid I'm going to piss Him off & He hurt me horribly as revenge.

Another thing I've currently been having a problem with (well, I always did, but it's on my mind, again, lately) - is how we're supposed to convert others & if the people don't convert, then kill them. I know Islam & other religions say that, too. There's a passage in the OT about a Hebrew sleeping with a non-Hebrew & someone goes & shoves a spear through both of them while they're having sex & it says that pleased God. ::Shudders::

Look, I understand if You're God & You made everything & are awesome & stuff that You want people to only worship You. You don't want anyone else taking credit for what You've done. But, I mean, do we really have to kill them? What if they are good people in every other important aspect? So, I feel like I should try to convert people, to save them from Hell - but I don't want to kill them if they refuse. And I feel like God would see that as a failing of mine. And that's creepy as Hell, man. I may be wrong if I don't kill non-Christians, but I'm not going to take the chance that I'd be wrong FOR killing them. I don't want to. I think it's wrong. God can judge me for that. I don't think I want to be the kind of zealot that went on the Crusades & whatnot. Can't we reach some sort of compromise?

It used to bother me when I'd wonder what happened to good people in Ancient times after they died. Like the Greeks who worshipped the Ancient Greek gods or the Ancient Egyptians. If they were good people, shouldn't they go to Heaven & be rewarded? Then, I read about the legend that Jesus descended into Hell after he died & freed the good people that died before his time. Opened the Hellmouth & rescued the "virtuous pagans," I think it called them. That makes me feel better. So I'm believing something like that happened.

When I took a History of Christianity class in college, it really opened my eyes. I didn't know about Ecumenical councils. I guess I hadn't thought much about where The Bible came from before that. I guess I vaguely thought they found it somewhere, intact, in the form it's in now. I think in the back of my mind I thought The Dead Sea Scrolls were the first version of The Bible. I didn't know the councils voted on which books to include & exclude from The Bible. Which explains the version of The Bible I found at a garage sale that had books in it that weren't in mine & I'd never heard of before, like The Apocrypha. I've heard of The Gospel of Judas (yes, Iscariot), but I haven't read it, yet. So, when I read something in The Bible that I really, STRONGLY believe is wrong or must be wrong, I think two different things. 1) Whether or not God is infallible, humans definitely are. So even though the books of the Bible were probably divinely inspired - there can still be mistakes due to human-error or bias (homophobia, misogyny, racism, etc.) Note from the Wikipedia article, while everyone is supposed to believe the Canons, it also says: "The doctrine does not claim that every aspect of every ecumenical council is infallible." (I also wonder about errors in translation from one language to another. Which reminds me - in Islam, the Quran is not supposed to be translated, to avoid misinterpreting the word of Allah.) OR 2) Maybe it is really true & I just don't understand or Satan is deceiving me, perhaps by using the good aspects of humans against us. So I pray on it & ask God to help me understand & know the truth. Just because I don't agree with God on something, doesn't mean He's wrong. But I might never agree about some things & I'll be judged appropriately, I hope.

Anyway, do you have any more info about that instance of Yahweh's army losing, despite His support, Katsura? Since you used "YHWH," that reminds me of a dream I had that touched me, where Jesus on a crucifix was talking to me (like moving & talking, like a little guy), but would only do it when I was alone. He wouldn't in front of my friends (who I think were fellow nuns?). Anyway, I called Him Adonai in the dream & that seemed very important.

I'm rambling, sorry, I'm very tired. (I just realized how funny it is I'm listening to The Queen of the Damned soundtrack, while writing all this.)

edited 8th Aug '13 4:32:17 AM by TheWomanWithNoName

First and foremost, welcome, TWWNN and Soban. Enjoy your stay here, even if the thread does move rather slowly at times.

With regards to being baptised... Uh, let's see. The basic meaning of baptism (Note: this is just what I've been taught, the details will differ depending on your denomination) is the recognition, acceptance and public testimony that your sins are buried with Christ (going into the water) and that you have been raised into a new life with Him (coming out of it). Unfortunately, different denominations will have different practices (full immersion versus sprinkling, the legitimacy of infant baptism, etc.) and this has led to schisms - but ideally, denomination shouldn't come into play. (EDITED for accuracy: refer to Maddy's post below.)

As for church... I'm sorry that your experiences led to things turning out that way - the church should be a "house of prayer" and not a "den of thieves", as Jesus put it. Denominations tend to make the picture rather unclear at times (ref 1 Cor 1), but ultimately, a Christian is defined by one's relationship with God - prayer and Bible reading are the equivalent of having conversations with God and entering into a better understanding of Him. But the one main reason I'd argue for joining a congregation is that it's hard to stand alone as a Christian - one needs to interact and fellowship with other believers for the purposes of building each other up in the faith... and also because we're social animals by nature and we need all the help we can get.

edited 8th Aug '13 7:14:21 AM by Pyrite

Reflections on Windows. and welcome, The Woman With No Name.

WWNN, if you are baptised by a Catholic priest, you are being baptised into the Catholic church. The same holds true for most of the larger denominations (a Baptist baptism is joining the Baptist church, a Lutheran baptism is joining the Lutheran Church, and so on.) Your best bet is to find an independent church —one that isn't part of a larger affiliation or is part of a very loose affiliation. I don't know where you live but around here they often are what is called "storefront churches" — they meet in spaces that used to be a store, often in the business district or in business clusters in residential neighborhoods.

And welcome to the thread.

Thank you very much for sharing your story and your thoughts :D. It's admirable to see someone actually taking full charge to understand and figure out what's true, and what they believe. Many people go through life just going with whatever's there, without truly learning and understanding. I pray for the best, for you in your efforts. *hug*

As far as your Values Dissonance goes with certain aspects of the Old Testament, that statement right there pretty much covers the whole issue. Humans wrote the words. It wasn't just secular literature, but the exact words weren't dictated by a higher power. Therefore, the text is infallible in a certain aspect, but has tons of human errors. Furthermore, an old theologian (I think it was St. Augustine) came to the conclusion that the revelation of God in the New Testament is a further, more complete revelation of God in the Old Testament; the older depiction is deepened, rather than contradicted (though the theology may be more complicated than that, as I haven't actually read any primary sources).

I personally don't believe that God has any flaws, and He's definitely not the kind of being to get in a rivalry with a human; He loves every single one purely and infinitely. He does let bad things happen (I believe this withholding of power ties into humanity's free will, and its ultimate destiny of perfect happiness), but I still don't view God Himself as a flawed or evil entity. I believe He calls everyone to a good relationship, as opposed to an antagonistic one. We do have to put some effort into the relationship, but God unfailingly puts in His half of the bargain. It's only us who ever push away in these relationships. And even when we do, He never stops loving us - and not in a condescending way, either. His love is infinite and immutable, so there's nothing bad enough we could do that would ever change it. Just our own love changes.

Each part of the Trinity is a different way which people have experienced God: as a savior (Son), as one who bestows grace (Spirit), and as a creator and provider (Father). I believe each of these embodies the wholeness and perfection of the same God; they aren't different "personalities," but one being as experienced in three unique ways - each known as a different "person" (the plural of which is "persons" rather than "people").

One way a local priest taught me to visualize the Trinity is using some of the clasical elements. Jesus could be associated with water (it's mentioned a few times in the New Testament that He's the "living water"); Jesus is gentle, and carries us down a stream. The Holy Spirit would be fire ("tongues of fire" in Acts of the Apostles); it burns in us, ignites our passions, and will spread wherever it wants to. And lastly, the Father would be earth ("my rock of salvation" in a number of places in the OT); the ground which we stand on, that which keeps us firm, that which we can depend on.

Oh, and as far demoninations go, I'm probably not the person you're looking for in terms of advice, since I'd just try to defend and explain Catholicism a bit . Though if you've seriously decided that you're completely and totally uninterested in it, then berating you with words and such isn't really gonna do any good (especially since I'm not a trained apologist).

Generally, I think anyone can call themselves a "Christian" if they want to. If you want to be recognized as such by mainstream Christianity, well, you'll have to believe in mainstream Christian things, such as Baptism, the Apostles' Creed, the Trinity, the Incarnation, etc.

edited 8th Aug '13 11:23:42 PM by Izon

Hello Woman With No Name. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

@TWWNN, On baptism. No, you don't have to be baptized into a specific church. I've found that the journey of many of my friends who have not been fully immersed is to be fully immersed. To me, the big thing to remember is what it is. It is a specific sign that you have died to your old way of life and have been raised by Christ to walk in a totally different way of living. If you lived near me, I'd do it for you. It's a deeply spiritual event.

On going to church, I've heard it said that you are the average of the 5 people you spend the most time with. Church's are a way for believers to get together. A strand of three chords is not easily broken and all that jazz.

Does that answer your questions?

Belonging. i'm reminded of a time when i was looking for acceptance in this world. now, i know that i don't have to.

The Power of Compassion. God knows i was broken before. i'm still in the process of being mended.

Thank you, Pyrite, Crimsonstorm, Madrugada, Izon, Novis, & Soban for your gracious welcome & info! It makes me feel accepted & loved. I'm sorry it's taken me a few days to come back & respond.

@Pyrite - I agree with all you've said. Thank you for the information. In regards to when I go to church - it's not so much the other people that bother me, but how the services make me feel. It probably *is* a good thing, but it's so intense an experience that I've found it hard to go on a consistent basis. Although, the hypocrisy of some members does bother & perplex me. At my mom's church, most people were confused & frightened by my crying, but that one woman understood. But at one of my local Catholic churches, I went for Easter with some friends & cried uncontrollably, again. Afterwards, some people I used to go to school with were making fun of me for it in the parking lot, which kinda astonished me. I was like, "Wow, really? You're really going to make fun of me for this? On Easter? What kind of Christians are you people?" But, then again, nearly all the people I went to school with were jerks (which is a polite way of putting it), so I guess I shouldn't have been surprised. It was pretty ridiculous. I agree that it's good to belong to a community of fellow Christians for support. I've been volunteering with a Catholic charity group out of another local church & the people are all very nice. I thought about joining that church, because of that - but I don't really feel Catholicism is for me. Which makes me a bit sad, but it doesn't mean I can't associate with them, anymore. The fact most of them are senior citizens might have something to do with their attitude - having more experience & perspective on life & whatnot.

@Crimsonstorm - hi there! Thanks for the welcome!

@Madrugada - That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure. Thank you for clarifying that for me. My mom's church (United Church of Christ) is basically non-denominational. I'm thinking about asking the pastor to baptize me. He baptized my mom & she didn't have to study for a year like the Catholic church wants. And she'd already been baptized before, as a child, I believe. He said if I wanted to be fully immersed, they'd find a place where we could do that. The church is next to the local pool & my dad said I could be baptized in the pool - but that wouldn't feel holy enough for me. I'd like it to be in a church.

@Izon - awwwww, hugs back to you! Thank you for your warm welcome. Yes, I feel that I have a lot to learn about Christianity & God. I'm still shedding the lies evil people brainwashed into me about Christianity & God, that skewed my views for years. Jesus has been helping me understand more.

I finally got a handle on the concept of the Trinity by the clover metaphor that St. Patrick used. Though, I will admit, I still have problems understanding it as well as I'd like. With my knowledge/experience in Wicca & studies of mythology & other religions, part of me thinks of the Persons of the Trinity as different aspects of God. As in, say, how Athena is the goddess of war, but also of weaving & wisdom. And in her aspect as a war goddess, she is very different from Ares or Bellona. I also think of the Trinity like how we all have different personas for different situations. We act a certain way with friends, a different way with strangers, are focused or do different things while in school or at play. And another way I've found to understand it better - and I hope this isn't disrespectful, because it's kind of funny - is how my parrot doesn't seem to quite understand that the different parts of my body are all me. It appears he thinks my hand is one being & my face another & he has no idea what my feet are, lol! The hand gives him food & treats & tickles, but can also discipline. My face gives him smiles & words & kisses. My feet just wiggle their toes & look weird, all the way down there. Hehehe. So that helps me understand God a bit better. Cause He is a bigger & greater Being than us - so for us to comprehend Him, perhaps we need to look at the different parts of Him, separately, to get a better idea of the All. Because All at once is too much for us. Does that make sense? I really like your analogy of comparing the Persons of the Trinity to elements. I guess before I would've thought of The Holy Spirit more like Aether or Water, but I see why you say Fire & that does make sense. Jesus' gentleness & love is like Water, but I also have seen Fire from Him. I will think on this more.

No offense to you or other Catholics, Izon. There are parts of Catholicism that I like, but as a whole, it just doesn't feel right *for me.* Most of my religious experience has been private & internal. Praying & reading The Bible alone. And I feel close to God when I do that. I feel closer to God in the UCC church than I do in Catholic ones. I get lost in all the ritual & stuff with Catholicism. I feel it gets in the way between me & God. It's a personal preference. I do believe in all the mainstream Christian things that you've mentioned. I just wish there was a "universal" or "over-arching" church I could belong to, instead of Christianity being split up into all different denominations.

@Novis - thank you! I appreciate it!

@Soban - thank you for the information. Yes, that is what I want from baptism - as well as the Salvation that comes from it. I understand what you mean about becoming like those you associate with most & there being strength in numbers. It probably would be good for me to join a church, but I don't know which one, yet. Hugs!

Oh yeah & everyone can just call me "Woman," if you wish. Probably easier.

I'm Sorry. Confession can be quite relieving.