Super Smash Bros.

She already has been nerfed hard from what we have seen, so yay.

Seriously, unfun to play against, unfun to watch, and unfun mirrors. At least Melee Fox and Brawl Meta Knight were entertaining to see pull OP shit.

Melee Fox is the very definition of Difficult, but Awesome, and Brawl Meta Knight at least has variety to his moveset. Competitive Bayo is as braindead as it gets.

Edited by JRads47 on Oct 21st 2018 at 3:47:16 AM

Brawl Meta Knight was awful. At least Melee Fox and Wii U Bayo stay in the fight. Brawl MK just runs away as soon as he gets the lead. Just glides back and forth under the stage, spams dimension cape on the ledge, tornados/drills away from projectiles, etc. Bayo TOD ladders are annoying, but at least you see someone getting hit.

> She already has been nerfed hard from what we have seen, so yay.

they didn't nerf her hard enough!

New theme music also a box

Bayonetta can do that too, people who play her just...don't.

YO. Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie.

You're right on Melee Fox but absolutely wrong about Brawl Meta Knight and Bayo.

Brawl Meta Knight can spam two moves and wins the match and spends the whole time running away. It isn't hard to play him and he wins every match up. Like, there actually isn't a single character in Melee or Smash 4 that's as good as Brawl Meta Knight especially for how little effort it takes to play him.

Bayo, for as busted as she is, is still hard to play. She isn't the hardest, mind you, but she is absolutely not braindead. There's a reason that Bayo isn't dominating majors like Brawl Meta Knight was or Melee Fox can. It's hard to recover correctly with her, and her combo trees require decent timing and a thorough knowledge on how her moves link together.

Plus Bayo ladders aren't ever TOD (with very few exceptions). Literally all you have to do is wiggle the control stick. Granted, if she reads your SDI then you might be in trouble but any decent character won't die from witch twist combos.

Edited by EpicBleye on Oct 21st 2018 at 10:17:39 AM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

Yeah, I don't get why people say Bayonetta is brain-dead easy. I tried playing her, and I suck at it. She's so hard to figure out and work all of the little bits together. Cloud is brain-dead easy, I picked him up and got good with him within a minute. Bayonetta is Difficult, but Awesome, the problem is that she's too awesome.

According to Luigi's blog entry, his Poltergust is now used in his throws. So that's an interesting tidbit that'll probably be shown off later.

It's been 3000 years…

Yeah tbh, I never was able to utilize Bayo the way some really good players do. I think she definitely takes a degree of skill and isn't as "braindead" as people seem to be claiming.

I feel like people saying Bayonetta is too awesome haven't played any games from her home series.

Be lucky Sakurai didn't give her any of her alternate weapons from her own series to change on the fly, for instance.

Watch Symphogear

I don't think Bayo is that easy to master.

She might not be as difficult to master as Melee!Fox, but I honestly think Brawl!Meta Knight was more braindead easy.

However, I'll agree that Cloud is easier to master. Even though I main him (though I suck competitively. I do have a friend is better than me and he mains Bayo).

You know, I have to wonder why Pit is obsessed with this site. It’s gonna ruin his life!

Mario can just jump on most enemies and kill them in one hit. Would make for a pretty stupid fighting game character if he was that accurate to his home game.

Edited by Hashil on Oct 21st 2018 at 10:04:47 AM

Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Rosalina should all have a damaging footstool.

I don't want damaging footstools, but you may as well include Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, and Yoshi in that. Maybe Bowser and Daisy too since they've been in games where you damage foes by jumping on them.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

I would like damaging footstools...

Added variety to the vanilla Mario...

It would not cause flinch damage, but just minor 1.5 to 2% of damage.

YO. Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie.

Bayo's mobility isn't great, her standing/running hurtbox is rather tall, her moves don't come out or cool down particularly quickly, she doesn't have many moves with invincibility or transcendent priority, and her dodges are really slow to make space for Bat Within, during which she still takes some damage. If she doesn't play aggressively, the opponent will be all over her (provided they can tell when Bayo is baiting for Witch Time, which becomes obvious with minimal experience).

Meanwhile, Brawl Meta Knight can run away from basically any character for two minutes with minimal damage and no kill opportunities. He has a small hitbox, he runs quickly and has insane air time with multiple jumps, practically all his moves have transcendent priority, all of his aerials are stupid fast with disjointed hitboxes, Mach Tornado eats through near everything and goes on forever, Shuttle Loop has really fast shoryu invincibility, Dimension Cape vanishes and can be canceled into a ledge grab in a game where ledge regrabs grant invincibility no matter what, his rolls and air dodge belong in Smash 4, and he can glide safely under most floating platform stages faster than much of the cast can run across. He is the ultimate camper.

I'm not going to argue one way or the other whether Meta Knight runaway cheese or Bayonetta ladder cheese is more damaging to its respective games' competitive scene. I will argue that Bayo matches at least end quickly, making them less of a chore to watch through.

That said, if I had to watch matches of any SSB game's top character on Final Destination with no items for the rest of my life, it would be Fox only.

The only moves that matter...Side B and Up B take priority over most attacks other characters would be using.

Unless it's a smash attack.

Moves like her up tilt and down tilt, back air come out fast enough.

She can use her specials to stall an aggressive player easily, they're just mobile enough.

It only really helps compared to Brawl that Smash 4 is a faster game overall that characters can actually keep up with her.

YO. Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie.

I'm so happy that Luigi can finally use his vacuum in his normal moveset. Throws are a perfect place to put it too, even if making it a special move could have been cool it would have also worsened his recovery so I'm happy with where it is now.

So, Luigi's evolution means he's no longer even a clone.

I guess.

He's been on a great big journey of decloning, so proud.

YO. Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie.

I put Luigi in the same category of Lucas and Wolf as the most different clones in the roster compared to others like Toon Link or Falco.

(Isabelle isn't a clone (so she doesn't even get put with those other 3) because she only shares Pocket and a balloon recovery, and unlike Luigi who still shares a handful of Mario's attacks, all her normal attacks besides just dash attack are completely different. So saying she's a clone is like saying Dedede is a Kirby clone because they can both inhale and have a chargeable hammer attack)

Luigi only shares 2 moves: F-tilt and up-tilt is now more similar than before.

Isabelle also has Villager's throw and Final Smash.

Lucas and Wolf's thing were that they had variations of all 4 shared specials.

And Ness' bat.

And Wolf has Fox's neutral air.

Also Falco would also apply since most of his moves have been different since Brawl.

Edited by randomness4 on Oct 22nd 2018 at 1:35:32 AM

YO. Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie.

Honestly in terms of which top tier is best to watch I think Melee Fox is the most fun.

I do feel like Brawl Meta Knight at times can be more fun to watch then Bayonetta but Brawl Meta Knight stall against Ice Climbers is mostly just boring.

In fact Brawl Ice Climbers is probably worse to watch than anyone else, despite not being as good as Brawl Meta Knight. Brawl Ice Climbers is the definition of stalling.

Even though I've played the Bayonetta games, she's pretty hard to master and Brawl Meta Knight is better than her because of that. (Also Brawl Meta Knight has basically has the best matchup chart in Smash Bros history)

Brawl Meta Knight is just OP as hell and him + Icies chaingrabs killed the Brawl Metagame.

My personal favorite OP character to play as is Cloud, but that's because I like how simple he plays.

Edited by ReynTime250 on Oct 22nd 2018 at 1:01:27 PM

Doesn't Luigi still have Mario up/downsmash, n/u/bair, up B, and kinda-sorta neutral B?

Semi-clone is a really hazy term, but I think Luigi's number of shared moves is still substantial enough for him to count.

I think that Luigi's side-smash should have a lightning effect.

Switch FC code: SW-4420-1809-1805

Lightning Karate chop? I dig that!