Series/Deus Ex

The problem with Mankind Divided isn't complex.

The problem is:

• Microtransactions
• The fact huge chunks of the game were cut out to make DLC including several vital frigging plot points
• The fact the game's climax wasn't a climax
• No actual resolution to the double agent plotline where you choose TF 23 or the Collective
• No real explanation what the hell the Big Bad's reasons for doing what he was doing was
• The ridiculous "And you're maybe a robot/clone/android" plot

Basically, lots of build up for a side mission.

Throw in the DLC into the main game and have a final level where you take down one o the Illuminati inner circle and the game is fine.

edited 26th Mar '18 4:22:23 AM by CharlesPhipps

Yeah, definitely. The Pritchard DLC definitely should be looped into the main story. Hell they could do like they did with The Missing Link and actually incorporate it into the campaign. A little stretch like that would help a lot.

Making it feel like it was setting up for a sequel is... not great.

As for the microtransactions - I can see their logic, if I disagree with the rationale. There's more than enough resources IN GAME that you don't need them. They're basically paid for cheat codes.

Hell, one of the DLC, "Desperate Measures" is obviously cut content and it's not a small bit of content either but about an hour of gameplay and that's not a minute bit when the game is about 9 hours normally. Desperate Measures is the resolution of the bomb maker plot and the suicide bombing that opens the game. It's what leads you to Golem City and a major part of the storyline.

Removing it was seriously not cool.

"Throw in the DLC into the main game and have a final level where you take down one o the Illuminati inner circle and the game is fine."

The problem is that the creators are constrained by continuity in the franchise, which they've said they're constantly focused on:

- Elizabeth DuClare canonically dies shortly before the events of the original game

- Lucius DeBeers has to survive to be cryogenically frozen/encountered by JC Denton

- Morgan Everett and Stanton Dowd have to canonically survive to be present by the time the original game begins

- Bob Page is (at the time of MD) on the other side of the world, working in the Versalife building in San Francisco, while Manderley is just serving in an advisory role and isn't even in Prague

Of the Illuminati members we see, only Volkard Rand doesn't show up later. The game hints, if not outright states, that Rand is Janus and will be encountered by Adam in the next installment. This is a problem with the game as a whole - they keep teasing these confrontations (against Everett in the Eliza sidequest, against Dowd in System Rift, the Illuminati as a whole in the ending), but the writers can't do anything because it would be a curb-stomp battle otherwise. DX: HR had this problem too on a minor scale (Gary Savage in the Missing Link DLC, Page in the main game).

I've played both Desperate Measures and System Rift, and I didn't care for either of them. DM doesn't have nearly enough compelling content, and the big revelation (that Ivan Berk was a victim of circumstance) is already covered enough in ambient dialogue/pocket secretary/visual cues in Golem City.

System Rift doesn't add anything to the overarching story that wasn't already explained by the main game or the stuff in the Palisade bank/its associated missions, and the stuff I wanted to see from the Black Light novel (like Adam and Pritchard breaking back into Sarif HQ or working as a team to investigate the Juggernaut Collective) is nowhere to be found in the DLC itself.

edited 28th Mar '18 3:03:37 AM by crazyrabbits

Honestly, I assumed the Illuminati board member exists solely so you CAN take one out in a case of Remember the New Guy? and if he is Janus then that just means Janus is evil.

SE have tried being an almost budget Ubisoft with this - putting a lot of extra content into surrounding media. The reality is that, whilst fans will buy that for EXTRA little bits, putting core story pieces into something that isn't a game doesn't sit well.

I think they'd do well by only having HINTS at the next game - this direct tie to the illuminati is a bit of a pain, as the Troper above says. It's limiting. Thwarting the Illuminati plans is great, but a game needs a "boss" of sorts, a denouement.

Heck, even having us defeat an Illuminati pawn and having the relevant board member appear in hologram, conceding defeat in this circumstance but vowing that it isn't over could work as a catharsis point.

Beyond that, short of having a dark ending where Jensen gets forcefully turned into Walton Simons, who knows?

I think the best ending is connecting Jensen to Paul and JC as mentioned above just because, "Yes, Adam doesn't defeat the Illuminati but he lays the seeds for those who does."

I also wish we'd had Stanton Dowd show up as an ally in this game to underscore, "We aren't all bad people. The whole massacre wasn't our plan."

Exactly. The Illuminati in the original DX was just a bunch of rich people "playing at running the world" but they weren't all idiotic nut-jobs. That's all Page, Xiao and possibly Lucius to an extent. And Morgan in his early years. Dowd would've been good as he is helpful in DX 1. Or some interaction with Madame Du Clare. Hopefully in the next one, if MJ 12 start to make an appearance.

Plus some real world links like we had in DX 1 - with the Rockefeller and some other actual conspiracy theories given credence. We're getting a bit TOO sci fi here.

A bit more time in America as well, to see the REAL downturn in action.

I think the real problem with Mankind Divided was it was a big set up for a lot of spin offs that never materialized.

TF-23 has an entire CAST of new characters that we never get to really interact with on missions.

There's a sense they were building a franchise before forgetting you need to build the game first.

Yeah, heck if they wanted to replicate a microtransaction model, have a hub city and TF 29 / proto UNATCO and a core story... then sell cheap mission packs that bolt into it as additional investigations.

Similar to Hitman, but with a central game to work from. Or, if the engine is flexible enough, go the Shadowrun route and have a workshop. Buggered if it's cannon at this point anyway.

I do wish we'd actually interacted a bit more with Mac Ready, even Vince Black before his end game. Or Aria, goddammit, more Aria.

I love the game, flaws and all. But it's a sign of scope slip and not enough time. The right sales model COULD work with the genre. But it's how you market it - do the CDPR route of a solid central game, then you can pretty much work with that goodwill. Hitman showed episodic and floating content can work as well.

Ok, so let's get a little hypothetical going. In the next game, what would you like to see, what sort of story should it focus in on and which characters should cameo / focus?

I'd go full Metal Gear Solid continuity porn.

Understand this is only how I would WANT them to do it, not actually do it.

• Adam Jensen goes to meet Janus, finds the dead Volker.
• Aria becomes Adam's girl friday because Aria is awesome.
• Adam is made a wanted fugitive and gets hunted by Gunther and Anna (both who will be boss fights but escape in cutscenes or be rebuilt). The younger pair are bosses throughout, getting more cybernetics as Adam kicks their ass.
• Gets contacted by the new Janus who sends him on multiple missions. The New Janus gives Adam a complete list of all of the Illuminati members and how to beat them.
  • Adam is given a specialized computer virus that allows him to wipe out the entire fortune of Stanton Dowd.
  • Adam fights against the Knight Templar, the military arm of the Illuminati, and proceeds to wipe them out. This is the Paris level and we get a brief revisiting of Silhouette.
  • Adam is given the option of poisoning Debeers or not but if he doesn't then Debeers is still poisoned.
• Adam finds out the new Janus was Bob Page all along.
• Adam rescues Everett Morgan from being assassinated by Majestic-12. He promises to run interference.
• Adam discovers Eliza has been recaptured and reprogrammed into the basis for Bob's plan to create a super-computer god.
• Adam finds out about the Gray Death plan but it's already released by the time he gets to Area-51.
• Adam finds a pair of children, Paul and JC, before rescuing them. Megan Reed gives him the ambrosia serum that is necessary to stabilize the nanites that create the Gray Death. Without the kids, Bob won't start the virus killing people. Megan gets a Redemption Equals Death moment.
• Adam goes off into the sunset to hide, knowing he's only delayed the rise of Bob Page for a couple of decades.

edited 28th Mar '18 5:48:30 AM by CharlesPhipps

"Thwarting the Illuminati plans is great, but a game needs a "boss" of sorts, a denouement."

Well, it did. One of the game's failings is not making Viktor Marchenko more of a compelling presence. You only speak to him twice (in Golem City and at the end of the game, with a non-interactive appearance at the beginning of G.A.R.M.), and the few scant details you find out about him (that he has a family, that Page entrusted other soldiers with Marchenko's killswitch in case he went rogue) are things you have to actively go out of your way to search for.

You could literally rush to the endgame and not find out a thing about him, but the plot needed more of a reason why he was pushing his plans. We just get a bunch of stuff dumped on us in the last mission without knowing why it matters, and Janus' pleas to help don't really do much to convince the player otherwise.

"Hitman showed episodic and floating content can work as well."

Sure, but Hitman 2016 is a sequel that takes place at some indeterminate time after Absolution, and even though it's heavy on continuity, most of it is conveyed through subtle nods and little bits of dialogue. The floating content is also built into the model of the game - it's freeform missions that give you the ability to do what you want, with no other cutscene prompts until the end where a short cinematic plays. Deus Ex is, by intent or not, much more narrative and focused on player reactiveness and acknowledging choice and effect.

HR/MD are prequels that are constrained by continuity and need to get to a certain point.

I wouldn't be too mad if they did go ahead and declare Alternate Continuity, just to open up some options. I'm pretty sure I've said this before and will probably end up saying it again, so I won't go into too much detail, but I've always found it hard to reconcile the world of Deus Ex 1 and the world of Human Revolution onwards. Some weird tech differences, some odd fashion trends, some strange developments from where augments fit in the world, and also Adam doesn't look nearly as handsome as Gunther does. Yeah, yeah, Adam's top-of-the-line, but everyone looks better than poor old Gunther.

If I did have full control over where the franchise headed: I think I might want to just move on from the Illuminati. Especially if we stay in prequel territory. Obviously not right now, since we just set up a game all about leading up to some sort of Illuminati thing, but going into different territory could open up a bit more narrative freedom. I know all the Deus Ex games need to give you an excuse for sneaking around and knocking out/killing a bunch of people in your way, so it always naturally lends up itself to you being some sort of special operative for somewhere, but still!

I have to say, I actually (controversially) enjoyed the last MK:D level. Honestly, it closed down the arc nicely. I agree we should've had a bit more interaction or engagement with Marchenko - perhaps a dialogue battle as well. I felt that the bomber arc was good, but I understand the complaints - the whole bombing arc felt like a single mission strand (much like tracking down the Ambrosia shipment in DX 1). A few more side missions, or even a final bit in Prague after that cutscene, where you can talk to Miller, Mac Ready. Or, hell, if you captured Marchenko, a chance to interview him in the cells. But yes, this is clearly a setup for the next game.

As for the floating content element - agree on the narrative design for Hitman, but there's nothing saying you can't apply a similar structure to Deus Ex in some way - so, there'd a be a solid narrative in the design I'm envisioning - however, it'd be from a "hub" - so, like Unatco on Liberty island, or TF 29 in Prague, where you can then go on missions, which build up the central narrative. Hell, use some that Freedom Fighters structure - go to one map, shut down a power grid and it makes life easier elsewhere (Deus Ex 1 did this with its optional objectives)

And then, when you release DLC, or gear, or say new characters who you have to track down in the other hub areas (Which would be included at launch) then it just adds more layers. A better way of including DLC stories, rather than finding them in a menu.

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As for my idea - similar to Charles' but a few tweaks:

- Game starts with Jensen being deployed by TF 29 to Pretoria. There's been an outbreak, and there's suspected terror involvement. - Janus is feeding Adam intel on the promise of a meeting - your tutorial is non combat and involves working through a half deserted market and residential complex, partially quarantined by SA Army. - Infiltrating finds several canisters - prototype grey death perhaps? \\this is when we meet our familiar helmeted MJ 12 operatives for the first time.

Closure of the mission is a sudden recall - you have to extract after quarantine is breached by an unknown. Panicked citizens are overunning SA checkpoints, you have to get out through the crowds.

- Janus agrees to a meeting - in Paris, where TF 29 has relocated to. Rand is still alive, but panicking, as Jensen finds out the Illuminati power struggle is kicking off. Jensen agrees to help him and has to escort Rand with his security detail to a plane. However Jensen is intercepted by NAVARRE. Janus gets captured and Adam has another knock and loses his Augs - or rather the MK:D variants. - TF 29 do a refit and Jensen is now more organic. He has a more realistic arm back for example.

The driving choice of the game is nano or Aug - so no super nanites like JC - nano Augs are more concealed but less powerful (in this game) - but if you have them, you end up being able to access more areas socially, as there is a strong anti-aug sentiment still. However beyond skill tree / Praxis, you would need to go to specialist clinics / "med-docs" robots to transplant to Nano-aug. And the choice would be permanent and lock off mechanical augs connected to that limb / area.

- The story would then be about Jensen uncovering the sudden MJ 12 coup. majority of the game takes place in Paris. TF 29 is assisting MJ 12 (Like Unatco) and Page knows Jensen is an Illuminati plant (via Manderly) so you're being watched. This'd mean the game would almost need some sort of reputation system where missions could get locked off if they don't trust you, so you'd have to balance being caught with finding things out.

- Jensen then begrudgingly helps the Illuminati survivors find refuge - assisting Morgan in extracting (Choices would be how much Morgan escapes with) - Stanton Dowd could cameo by providing you with a safe house and support from military characters (The Templar - we could see them being staunchly Anti-aug as well but helping out.) - Liz Du Clare is working with Page (at least at first) as the WHO and versalife are in cahoots.

Ultimately you have to sacrifice some people to maintain cover, could be one major choice.

I would only have mentions of Paul / JC as a possible project plan. Perhaps a cameo as you infiltrate a Versalife facility?

Also, you have a young helicopter pilot working for TF 29 at this stage, which you're still tacitly helping - Miller would be alive (Let's go with a cannon choice here) but your new pilot is... JOCK.

Also, Megan would have to be featured as an antagonist at this point, Also, the Psychiatrist, at least in some format of boss battle - dialogue heavy.

Rand, of course, has to die at some stage - he gets captured by Page and during a run to rescue him, he is infected with the Grey death. he becomes patient zero, but you don't know what with until he is released into the wild.

Bit messy, but I think the core plot points - we should see more ruined city scapes, larger as well. This is the downfall element of the DX franchise. Where we see the real extremes. Paris centre is relatively stable and pleasant, but you travel to the suburbs or industrial areas and it's a wreck, full of homeless.

The game would be hub heavy, not just one shot maps - so a few core hubs and one or two one shot maps outside of that.

I would have just remade/rebooted the original Deus Ex. Screw prequels.

Whilst I'd love to see Deus Ex revamped (hell, DX:IW revamped so its levels were larger would be good too) I quite like the prequels.

But they need to tie them off and, as said, maybe think about either an alternate continuity or just reinventing the franchise.

Cyberpunk 2077 may bring the alternative DX "style" game we want. But I'd like something different. Building out the conspiracy - maybe like in MGS, how you build out your base; or in Alpha Protocol, how your team and support network is influenced by your choices.

So maybe you Juggernaut HQ slowly accumulates allies who can unlock things like weapons, research, or different avenues to access other levels? So, say you don't have hacking - you can find a hacker who does it remotely for you? A way to bypass the mini game, say? Or you have other teams, so you need multiple pilots?

Eh, that'd take it into more broader strategy but that could be fun too. Not just your story, but the birth of the NSF and broader resistance.

The one thing I did miss from MK:D was that we never got to confront Chikane - as the art book implies he's also a mole - plus the email between him and the doctor. But he at least looks guilty for dropping you in it.

I would have just remade/rebooted the original Deus Ex. Screw prequels.

Eh, Deus Ex: Human Revolution is the example I chose for, "prequels which aren't ass."

Yet it's still a great game that suffers because it's a prequel. The giant Reveal Midway through the game is that the Illuminati is behind all that's happened. to which the player goes "No shit. I played Deus Ex." The entire "find out the truth" aspect of the game is based on a foregone conclusion.

Well the game never tried to hide it. Bob Page is at the start.

I mean, the general appeal of prequels is to see how things came to be, rather than if. Additionally, HR served as an introduction to newcomers to the franchise due to the release gap.

And also, someone tell me how Adam Jensen is less sophisticated than Gunther Hermann?

Heck, how is Adam Jensen less sophisticated than JC Denton for that matter?

edited 4th Apr '18 8:43:32 AM by AnotherGuy

Because JC Denton becomes a cyber god who can create cities with his mind?

Also Adam was designed for aesthetics as well as function by a private company with countless funs, and Gunter was meant to be functional first.

Yeah, I think a reboot makes more sense IMO. While DEHR does legitimately feel like a Deus Ex game, it does feel a bit more like a re-imagining. If Greys showed up in DEHR, that'd be pretty surprising, for example.

The grey showing up in regular DE was jarring.