Warhammer 40,000

I can kind of see the logic in trying to use one legion to counterbalance another one.

Especially since the BA's and their successors are mostly stuck in the Dark Imperium and the Dark Angels are the second or third largest 'Legion' in terms of number of Chapters.

Plus the Blood Angels got royally fucked when Leviathan hit Baal. Lots of their successors were either badly bloodied or completely destroyed and the planet was devastated.

And one of the only reasons they survived at all was because Chaos intervened on their behalf. Khorne hates killstealing after all.

Edited by M84 on Sep 21st 2019 at 7:42:11 PM

Dorku:yeah but....dark Angels? Really?

Why not the fists?

and because kabanda Is their freemy

Who says they're not also planning to do it with the Fists?

Tbh, the Fists, Dark Angels and the Blood Angels could all already be accused of Legion building long before Guilliman came back. And given that their gene-seed accounts for the bulk of of Marine ancestry, it's sorta arbritary between Fists and Dark Angels (obvs BA have the flaws) who should get more chapters - the only big difference IIRC is that DA have purer gene-seed.

The Black Templars for instance are way bigger than any Astartes chapter should be due to their exploitation of the Crusade loophole.

Plus, while the Unforgiven are still a relative unknown to the High Lords, what isn't so foreign to them is the Last Wall Protocol. They know exactly what the Fists are about when the chips are down.

Also remember the Dark Angel's gene-seed is actually one of the purest of all the gene-seeds. The Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Salamanders, Raven Guard Iron Hands and Imperial Fists all have degradation and/or mutation issues

Edited by SebastianGray on Sep 22nd 2019 at 1:22:50 PM

Granted, mutation may be less of a problem now that new successors atre probably exclusively made from Primaris stock, and they haven't picked up on the more severe genetic quirks of their regular brothers.

...Yet.

Their 8th Edition Codex's state that Primaris Blood Angles do suffer from the Red Thirst and Primaris do suffer from the Curse of the Wulfen. It will probably be the same for the others when their Supplements are released as the genetic defects are specifically referenced in the second 8th Edition Space Marine Codex.

I think you meant the opposite of this.

Oops my bad. I originally wrote least corrupted but changed it at the last minute. Will change it now.

Yeah, I forget about it but didnt the first help master of assasins to make a coup to the senatorium?.

While some of the past Ultramarine shilling was kind of annoying, I do appreciate how the story shows just how useful a mastery of logistics and statesmanship is. One only need compare how the Ultramarines have fared when their homeworld was devastated by a Tyranid attack to how other chapters fared when they suffered a devastating attack. The Ultramarines have so far avoided being in so vulnerable a position that they risk extinction.

Yeah, the problem has generally been when the Smurfs have gone from being the versatile, adaptable masters of logistics whose primary fault is that they can become too predictable for long-term enemies to the versatile, adaptable masters of all things who simply suffer the presence of other, lesser gene-stocks for the amusement of the High Lords.

Yeah, they're supposed to be the Boring, but Practical Astartes, not the Master of All Astartes.

Aye, there was a really good bit in Chapter's Due (which was written at the height of Matt Ward's Master of All depiction of the Smurfs) where Torias Telion - the Ultramarines' very best scout - is genuinely caught off guard during a meeting of the Chapter's command when a Raven Guard Captain and his entourage step forward from the shadows. They had been there the whole fucking time and he hadn't noticed them.

If any Astartes were the Master of All faction, it'd be either the Luna Wolves (Sons of Horus) back when they were still fighting for the Imperium or the Blood Angels prior to developing the Black Rage. I'd go with the Luna Wolves since back in the day they were the most powerful Legion.

Edited by M84 on Sep 23rd 2019 at 6:20:17 PM

There is another moment, I think in betrayer where Lorgar and Angron beat the ultramarines....and they kept coming, and kept coming and just kept fucking coming.

Because is why being a master of logistic means, you can win battle and still lose is why the roman were so damn good(fitting considering the ultras are 40K romans).

I think you meant lose the battle and still win the war.

The Ultramarines' shortcomings really show themselves when they end up fighting against specialists and are forced to engage them on their terms. Roboute for example got curbstomped by Master Swordsman Fulgrim resulting in him spending thousands of years in stasis.

Edited by M84 on Sep 23rd 2019 at 6:27:25 PM

No, is what I said, angron and lorgar beat the ultras and they just kept winning, they win battles but lose the war.

Granted I will said that ultramarine being their best in the heresy make sense in a writing standpoint: the horus heresy is a grand scoping narrative so they can flex their muscle and show how much they can take damage and kept coming over and over, something hard to do in individual novel where problem are more localized and individual feat are more important.

A master of logistics wouldn't win a battle and still lose the war.

Yeah. I wouldn't bet on the Ultras being able to reliably dig out fortified Imperial Fists or Iron Warriors or outpace Scars or go toe-to-toe with the Death Guard in Blighttown either, especially if they can't bring to bear bullshit numbers of resources.

Edited by CountDorku on Sep 23rd 2019 at 8:32:47 PM