Doctor Who

I still advocate for Martha returning to the show so she can get some justice and be allowed to hit her high points without being saddled with being "not Rose"

I just realized that I think one of the reasons people are so critical of more modern Doctor Who or even just anything after David Tennant is family.

In Eccleston's season and in Tennant's first year, we had exposure to more of Rose's real life, we have a direct encounter between the Doctor and Jackie and a somewhat direct encounter between the Doctor and Mickey; Jackie had clear views on Rose traveling with the Doctor and on the Doctor himself, she was pretty much as fleshed out as Rose, Jackie even traveled in the TARDIS (albeit because the Doctor forgot she was there), Jackie was even part of the action of traveling between universes and fighting Daleks; we actually got a look at what is at stake if the Rose dies, her mother will grieve, Mickey will grieve, and everyone did end up grieving for a year when Rose disappeared.

With Martha, her family was certainly less prominent in the show but that didn't make them any less a part of the cast, easily more involved than the Ponds family, Clara's family, and let's go ahead and say Bill's family. Martha is clearly the main glue in a dysfunctional family. We are introduced to her while she is bouncing between calls from her mother, brother, sister, and father; the Doctor meets Martha's mother, sister, and brother briefly in "The Lazarus Experiment", Martha's mother clearly worries about her and her recent behavior since meeting the Doctor; her other family members are of course less worried though as Martha's mother has information about the Doctor; Martha's main reason for even leaving the TARDIS is her family's wellbeing after having spent a year as slaves to The Master; oh and speaking of that, The Master used her family as leverage to catch her and the Doctor.

After Martha left there was Donna. Her mother doesn't exactly think very highly of her by pretty much saying she wants attention. Wilfred clearly cares more about Donna than Sylvia and is more understanding even if he isn't involved too much in her personal life before the Doctor came into it. We see in "Turn Left" that Sylvia is somewhat abusive even if inadvertently by sort of agreeing with Donna when Donna calls herself useless. Wilfred is clearly more involved in Donna and the Doctor's life than Sylvia; they sort of joke around about Sylvia together and have harmless fun. Wilfred has faith in Donna and the Doctor and is shown to care more about her safety when he said that if the Doctor didn't keep Donna safe, "he'll have to answer to me" which was of course somewhat of a joke but displayed his care for her greatly. Wilfred even ended up so fleshed out that some consider him to be a companion of the Doctor.

I think this involvement of the companions' family is something that has been lost starting with Matt Smith's takeover of the role. For instance, you hardly meet the family or friends of the Ponds and if you ever do, it is often brief and hardly relevant to the story, except of course Brian, who in my opinion is a poor man's Wilfred knockoff, and for the majority of the stories he is seen in is there for comic relief, and once the Ponds disappear we do not get to see what happens with Brian or even that he gets the news of their death. Clara's and Bill's families are much the same way.

Edited by dmcreif on Jun 12th 2019 at 11:54:56 AM

It is true that during the RTD era, there was something of a greater focus on the families of the companions.

I would say that's kinda sorta returning with 13: two of the companions are family (it might have been three if whatshername had lived), and we've seen a bit of Ras family as well.

Though they still aren't as involved as Rose, Martha, or even Donna's.

Meanwhile, with the Thirteenth Doctor, the whole family basically are the companions.

x2 What gravitates me more towards Rose, Martha and Donna (and their friends and families) as far as companions go is that they’re people. People I can imagine running into on the streets.

Not their timeline being woven into another character’s timeline. Not a crack between universes opening in their room. Not that they jumped into your timeline and now you remember them in every other moment of your life.

That actually is what I think sets the RTD companions apart from the Moffat companions. They have real history, and, thus, very unique character traits. They could pass for real people in the real world, because they have the substance.

That was something we didn't have during Moffat’s tenure. Moffat's view of characters - and particularly female characters, is that they’re part of the furniture. I'm sorry, but that’s what all his companions / recurring characters are. Furniture. Amy was never ordinary - she was special, because she grew up with a stupid crack in her wall. Clara was slightly better, but he lost that, too, with the whole “Impossible Girl” nonsense. And don’t even get me started on bloody River Song, the embodiment of everything that’s wrong in the Moffat era.

I love all three of them. I relate to Amy's abandonment complex and not really knowing how to show affection, I love Clara's narcissism and being a tiny bossy control freak, and River is both fun and "The Husbands Of River Song" gives me fuzzies.

For what it’s worth, Clara had two whole seasons after the “Impossible Girl” stuff had concluded, so I don’t think it’s fair to judge her solely on that.

For me, Clara didn't become Clara until Series 8. After the Impossible Girl arc, Moffat essentially had to either replace her with someone else now that her initial arc was done, or find something else to do with her. He decided to go with the latter. The result? Vastly expanding her character and turning her into a narricistic Consummate Liar control freak. And amazingly enough, it worked.

Edited by kkhohoho on Jun 20th 2019 at 6:50:57 AM

I preferred Clara in her introductory season but I've already mentioned that previously. Not a fan of River, not after LKH and the rest of series six though I don't consider her a companion either way. Amy and Rory are okay but I didn't watch series five so I mostly have how they were in series six and seven to go off of.

I am legitimately concerned about what I may provoke by bringing this up, given it involves the Tenth Doctor, but here goes...

https://www.fathomevents.com/events/doctor-who-the-end-of-time-10th-anniversary

This coming August, it looks like theaters are going to be playing the End of Time for a day.

I kind of feel like describing Amy, River, Clara and Bill as a part of the furniture is a bit gross? I don't know I haven't quite put my finger on why it makes me uncomfortable.

Cos even if you don't like them, I don't think you can call any of them passive or sexy lamps?

at least they didn't turned into a cyberman

(poor billy)

Eh. She walked it off.

But man, did Twelve do Bill dirty. I mean, we know that wasn't his intention, but he really put her through the ringer.

But she got a water immortal girl friend out of the deal sooo

That kiss made me so happy

I hope they get a spin off

or a follow up

Some new details have been emerging for series 12, reportedly the TARDIS fam are going to be meeting another historical figure early on in the season, Noor Inayat Khan, who was a Muslim serving in World War II as a Special Operations Executive and was sent to aid in the french resistance. She was detained in camps and executed, later being awarded the George Cross posthumously.

Sounds like a bleaker "Rosa", wonder how The Doctor will try to keep Yazmin in line over not trying to rewrite anything from this?

Actually, that sounds pretty exciting, since unlike Rosa Parks, not many people here now about that person. And since it's a historical about a famous Muslim, it also sounds like Yasmin is going to be important to the episode, which is nice. So it sounds like a more adventurous "Demons of the Punjab," which is an episode I loved.

"I kind of feel like describing Amy, River, Clara and Bill as a part of the furniture is a bit gross?"

All right, I digress, maybe that was not the best way to phrase it. But what I was trying to get across was that I think the companion writing under Moffat is just, and this is my opinion, very sexist. What does Amy have in her life that isn’t associated with the Doctor or with Rory? What does River Song have in hers? Pretty much every female character’s life revolves around the Doctor in Moffat’s writing. Compare that to the RTD companions: Rose was completely in love with the Doctor but she still had a life outside of him, so did Martha and even Donna. And they brought side characters who also had some amazing development, Jackie and Mickey being good demonstrations of this.

By removing that element, Moffat not only made Amy, River, and Clara's writing suffer, but he made the narrative suffer as a whole. I think that this is not only because he's one of those who thinks “sassy, mouths off a lot” is what makes a female character strong, but also because while Russell T. Davies focused the story of Doctor Who on the companions, Steven Moffat focused the story of Doctor Who on the Doctor. Now, RTD's Doctors got full arcs, yes, but seasons one and two were definitely about Rose and her story. Season three is about Martha. Season four's is about Donna, and the End of Time is about Donna and Wilfred Mott to an extent as well as much as it’s about the Doctor’s impending regeneration. Davies fleshed out his companions and made them people because they had stories to tell, because the Doctor—for all his brilliance—was not the hero of these tales. (Also note that while he didn’t get to do quite the same for Captain Jack Harkness, that’s what Torchwood was for.) The companions were the stars. The companions were the heroes. The companions look like giants to the Doctor because they are the reason for the show.

In Moffat’s era, it’s about the Doctor’s pain, the Doctor’s tragedy, how the Doctor deals with this and how he experiences that, and what the companions offer him. The “mystery wrapped in an engima” that they are, riddles for him to solve or lovers for him to caress in scenes of sassy flirtation. The companions were side characters to his story, whereas it can be easily argued that it was the other way around in the RTD era. And I think that’s where the biggest difference comes in.

Edited by dmcreif on Jun 24th 2019 at 12:10:06 PM

Clara (post-"Impossible Girl") and Bill definitely had lives outside of the Doctor. Clara was a teacher and dated Danny Pink (until his tragic death). Bill was a student, lived with other students, and we, in fact, see her home life in her first episode.

It's just that Moffatt tended to focus on when they adventured with the Doctor, rather than when they weren't. And when you're with the Doctor, well, they tend to become the center of attention. But there were definitely episodes that explored their lives outside of the Doctor — "The Caretaker" took place entirely in Clara's school; "The Pilot" was pretty much entirely from Bill's perspective (which makes sense as it was, you know, supposed to be a pilot a la "Rose"); and "Knock Knock" was about Bill moving into a house with other flatmates (the Doctor gets involved, of course, but still).

Edited by alliterator on Jun 24th 2019 at 10:13:41 AM

One more thing more,I'm glad Bill pot's head didn't explode,cos you know thats happens to cybermen sometimes..

I love how Clara can't win, she's either "stealing the spotlight" or "we don't know anything else about her".

I feel like RTD and Moffat fleshed out the companions in very different way, the RTD companions are often fleshed out in how they interact with their families, or in the case of series 1 Rose or Series 4 Donna, how their opinion of the universe changes. (I love that Donna and Rose both come to absolutly love the universe but on completly different terms, Donna loves it despite the fact that is is a dark and horrible place, and Rose loves it because she consider work class earth life to be a far worse dark and horrible place)

Moffat companions have very internal development. Most of how they develop is in how they view and interact with themselves. Amy has this tremendous ever present relationship with her own mental health that develops in almost all of her apperences. Clara like wise has an ongoing an intense relationship with her manipulative tendencies, and Bill has strong arc dealing with trying to have her personal identity recognised. (I still fucking hate that Bill got turned into a cybermen, it just felt so unnecessary cruel after nine series of companions being put through the ringer and series 10 opening with the promise that "you will always be safe here" but it was at least a good thematic climax to Bill's relationship with her identity - having it literally stripped from her and then later regained)

River does has a lot of internal stuff, mostly dealing with being what is effectively a super villain arcatype, but I agree that that is secondary to her complex relationship with the Doctor. Like, I love River, but I can not find myself in her like I can Amy, Clara and Bill.

And of course the epiphant in the room is Yas, who has been given so little to do in her debut series it's kind of disheartening to me.

Justice for Yas! And justice for Martha!

(also justice for 13, what was her character arc in series 11 again?)

Edited by Whowho on Jun 24th 2019 at 9:39:59 AM

There was an article that only really the men in season 11 had arcs, and I agree with that.