Doctor Who

Yeah, each of RTD's and Moffat's first seasons (Season 1 and Season 5) were really their best seasons, I believe. I'm not sure what that says about them — perhaps they used up all their really good ideas first?

In any case, unlike RTD and Moffat, I think Chibnall works better as showrunner than as writer, which I why I think that future seasons can only improve from Season 11.

I haven't read those comments, but it sounds like him. Of course, Moffatt has changed his opinions over the years, but I'm not sure if he ever said anything about asexuality.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 18th 2018 at 4:24:34 AM

Wasn’t always a fan of RTD, but his era did have a certain charm that I’ve missed, even if I think Moffat’s is my favorite.

Maybe part of it was the lack of HD?

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Dec 18th 2018 at 7:24:25 AM

It was definitely the shoddy CGI.

Season 1 suffers from a disconnect, I feel. Not everybody was on the same page, and so the tone suffers as a result.

x4 I'd say S8 is actually Moffat's best, but S5 comes close.

Moffat in interviews can either be really tone deaf or amazing, like he apologised for the rapey scene at the end of Flesh and Stone and as someone who relates to Amy's trauma but hated that end, meant a lot.

I personally thought that series 7 was Moffat's best, because Matt Smith was on his A-game for that entire series. It was the moment where I finally accepted him as the Doctor, and threw all caution to the wind as I enjoyed his adventures. Before that, my favorite Eleven episode was A Christmas Carol.

After that, I tend to not be so kind. I'm an RTD fanboy through and through, even with his own shonkier episodes at times.

@kkhohoho, regarding the Doctor as a cartoon character: I think I failed to properly elaborate what I meant.

I characterise Moffat's Doctor as being like a bad cartoon character - where everyone sings their praises, where they only ever overcome the most insurmountable of odds. Look at Demon's Run, where Vastra says out loud, more or less to the audience, that this moment will have "The Doctor's highest of highs, and his lowest of lows". Look at what he does at the end of series 5. I remember doing this cinema job thing and someone I worked with recommended an anime where everyone had a magic power that they used to fight a war, which were all different and varied, and the main character could stop time and redirect bullets and all of this OP, edgy garbage - obviously the Doctor isn't that OP, but that's sort of what I mean when I say "bad cartoon character".

I don't like Moffat's run so much for reasons like how the Doctor vents his regeneration energy like it's nothing in some of the later episodes. He's put into all of these huge, dramatic circumstances that are explicitly stated to be the crowning achievements of his career, he makes overblown, narmy speeches whenever the writer can shoehorn one in, and Moffat takes every chance that he can get to add a few years onto the Doctor's lifespan so he can say that his Doctor lived the longest. That's what I meant by the Doctor being portrayed as a bad cartoon character during Moffat's run.

But the Doctor is inherently goofy and fairly victorious and stuff like you would see from a nuanced or less nuanced cartoon show, whether it's RTD or Chibnall or Moffat - just as far as concept goes, the Doctor is undeniably kind of cartoony and silly. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that, it's what makes the show so entertaining to watch. My intended point was that yes, the Doctor isn't necessarily a character that has to be taken seriously on account of the goofy arsenal of gadgets, and the inherently fanciful concept of a time-travelling space ship that takes the characters to a new adventure every week - the Doctor being a cartoon character isn't an insult, it's a perfectly fine way to interpret the character.

But my feelings regarding Moffat's run turn the Doctor into more of a "ridiculously OP, relentlessly shilled, super serious moments of power and triumph that must be upheld with the utmost dignity and straight-laced praise" cartoon character - more like magic anime eye guy over there who's depicted with these game-breaking super powers, with his moral pragmatism and war-like setting of the show allowing him to be a dick while still being a hero. Those traits aren't all a part of the Doctor, but it's a similar flavor of "what a powerhouse! there's nothing that can stop this guy! that battle was the biggest, baddest battle of all time, and all credit goes to the main character for putting an end to it!"

My main mistake was not elaborating more on a "bad" cartoon character, as I saw a lot of Moffat's Doctor as being similar to, compared to the Doctor being a cartoon character in general which is honestly completely fine.

(Also I'm not saying that this is all that Moffat's Doctor amounted to - I'm just saying that when things did go this way, it was my least favorite portrayal of the Doctor. Too forced, too triumphant, too overblown and self-congratulatory. That's my bone to pick with Moffat's run, with good and bad episodes regardless.)

I mean RTD was the one who started the Lonely God/Tinkerbell Jesus stuff, Moffat was more mad man with a box.

RTD definitely had his moments, I'm not gonna deny that. I just think that Moffat did it more often, with things almost always being turned up to 11.

Like Moffat's first series ended with an event that blew RTD's biggest character-shilling moment into the atmosphere, as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, that's all I'll say about Moffat - I don't want to be known as the Moffat-basher in here, and even if I'm personally not so hot on his run in the long run, I respect folks who enjoy and/or prefer his run. Consider my piece spoken.

When you put it like that, I sort of get where you're coming from. Then again, one could say the same thing about Tom Baker. Matt Smith was far from the first time the Doctor was shilled out and 'OP' in the ways you describe. In fact, I'd argue that Baker took it even farther, especially during the Williams years.

And for the record, I still liked Tom Baker.

That said, whereas Tom Baker's shilling was because Tom Baker is Tom Baker, 11's served a purpose. 11 wasn't shilled just for the sake of shilling. 11 was shilled because his entire run is supposed to be a fairly tale. 11 is essentially a wizard with his magic wand, sorting out problems and making things right, making the impossible possible. And because of that, I don't really mind it. Though I can see how others might hate it with a passion.

Edited by kkhohoho on Dec 18th 2018 at 11:03:14 AM

I will say that I felt like Moffat largely stepped away from big, universe-shattering cataclysms for his finales in the Capaldi era, as well as the Doctor having these big, heroic moments. I'd argue emotional climaxes of the Series 8 and 9 finales came not from a big moment of heroism, but from moments of submission - admitting his own weakness. He's more straightforwardly heroic in the Series 10 finale, but I still think that was more subdued. Also, he dies, so not exactly a hero who always comes out on top there (the Cyberman who gets the killing blow even gets a pretty skewering one-liner).

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Dec 18th 2018 at 12:06:19 PM

Season 10 is my favorite Capaldi season, even though "Heaven Sent" is probably the best Capaldi episode. But that's because in Season 10, Twelve was allowed to make mistakes — often big mistakes that had consequences, like him going blind and not telling anyone. Plus, I love Missy and that was the season that really used her to the fullest extent.

Edited by alliterator on Dec 18th 2018 at 9:17:26 AM

I think a lot of people have the same issue with Moffat's writing of the Doctor, which is that he'll go for really big moments and create new Doctor Who Mythology, but he doesn't spend much time establishing the nessicary tone for it to feel earnt so people can buy into it.

Now, I've never had any issue with this because I'm happy to suspend my disbelief and take the presented tone as fact so we can get to the melodrama quicker, but for a lot of people it's just far too wham-bam-thank-you-mam and I totally get that.

That said, this does tie into my primery critisim of Moffat (and RTD) Doctor Who, which is that the narrative keeps presenting traumas that the show doesn't have the time to commit nessicary exploration too. (I also feel the same way about The Woman Who Fell to Earth, but that's a single data point)

On another note, Moffat is supremely bad at interviews. Like, so bad at interviews I think it legitimately makes the content of his actual episodes less enjoyable because they put those stories in an unflattering context.

Everything of Moffat's premeditated writing shows him to be a progressive at heart, (all be it one with blind spots) but as soon as you put him on the spot he seemingly relies on stupid crude humour to try and get him through the interview. So in response to that I think you can either choose to beleieve his interviews don't reflect his ideology well, and enjoy the progressive content of his episodes, or you can devorced the author from his content and reclaim the progressive content of his episodes for yourself.

Or, understandably, you can give his content a wide birth because some of the stuff he's blurted out is really stupid.

The quote in question:

What Moffat was saying was not that asexuals are inherently boring or undramatic. What he's saying is that, dramatically, it is more interesting for Sherlock to desire sex and withhold it from himself than it is for Sherlock to not simply desire sex and then not have any. He's not making any statements about asexuality in the general case. He's simply saying Sherlock being asexual is not the story he's telling. And as an asexual person myself, who's seen this one hauled out on a regular basis since 2014, I'm getting exhausted with the misinterpretations.

Edited by Wackd on Dec 18th 2018 at 1:17:10 PM

Ehhh, my immediate thought was "That's not quite what asexuality means" but I realize only recently has there be a greater effort in asexual circles to separate sexual attraction and sexual desire/urges, so it's. Whatever. I don't want to derail the thread with stuff like that.

What the quote does demonstrate for me, anyway, is what I find interesting vs. what Moffat finds interesting are not the same thing, so I may just stick with "pass" for now and look elsewhere. So, sorry.

To redirect my post somewhere else: My favorite episode from this season is Demons of the Punjab, after giving it some thought. I just really like how everything there played out and it wrecked all of my emotions.

Edited by MisoraMiyazaki on Dec 19th 2018 at 3:56:56 PM

The monsters for "Resolution" have been revealed.

How does the most pacifistic Doctor in a while deal with the least pacifistic race in existence?

More accurately, how is Chris going to make them somehow more boring than they were under Moffat?

Edited by Zarius on Dec 29th 2018 at 4:44:26 AM

Not possible.

I mean for what it's worth, Twelve had some pretty solid Dalek episodes, with more weird or "conceptual" ideas. Even if the series 9 two parter had weak moments, The Doctor talking to Davros was pretty solid - and the idea behind Rusty was relatively sound. Eleven had some trash Dalek episodes, though

I'm surprised there isn't more love for Asylum of the Daleks, what are the common critisims of it?

I do love that episode, and I love Clara/relate to Amy, but fuck Rory for that one Audience Surrogate line of "everyone knows I love you more than you love me". I just think that's ooc of him.

I feel like Clara's presence is the only thing most people remember about that episode. Which is kind of a shame; it's a perfectly good Dalek story without that context.

I really like the hook of the episode of the Doctor and the companions being employed by the Daleks, especially Amy and Rory who at this point are really flipping experienced.

"These are the Daleks that survived me" is a great moment.

As is "Does it surprise you Doctor to learn Daleks have a concept of beauty?"

Rory and the "eggs" was quite gripping as well.

And while it was a really blunt way of doing it, it did address popular fandom concerns about Rory and Amy's dynamic, even if I wish their issue over not having kids was further explored.

I do think the plot would have been more interesting if The Doctor wasn't in it, but that's just wishful thinking of mine.

And of course it's a great performance from Jenna Coleman who looks great in red.

The Amy-Rory divorce subplot completely ruins the episode for me. Like I love Oswin and the inherent foreshadowing for Clara in that episode but said Amy-Rory subplot is so bad I can't really call the episode a good one.