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** Was Abby truly a cruel person out to avenge her father in the most extreme ways possible, or was she a vulnerable woman easily manipulated by Isaac and the WLF's influence which led her down a dark path with years of training leading her to becoming desensitized to her humanity with her brutal methods like her murder of Joel the only thing she's been taught? It may be possible if she had been with kinder people she would have either decided to kill Joel quick or decided he wasn't worth it.
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** The game's [[https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8157R1BYmoL._AC_SL1500_.jpg cover]] sparked a lot of mockery due to how it felt overly edgy, being a close up of Ellie grimacing with blood on her face.
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** The game's [[https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/8157R1BYmoL._AC_SL1500_.jpg cover]] sparked a lot of mockery due to how it felt overly edgy, being a close up of Ellie grimacing with blood on her face. People began making comparisons with a [[https://64.media.tumblr.com/a11c9e5591cc539bcac7cb4e8ceacf3e/tumblr_n50ypaxD7O1r0fbd7o5_500.png similar image]] from ''VideoGame/WolfensteinTheNewOrder'', where Nazi-stomping {{Action|Hero}} AntiHero B.J Blazkowicz is making the same expression.
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** Even in a post-apocalyptic CrapsackWorld, some players found it far too absurd that Abby and her crew allowed a heavily pregnant ''doctor'' to accompany them on their hunting trips. That is, a woman who would struggle to run or climb obstacles, could start giving birth at any time (something to consider in a world where zombies are ''drawn to loud noises''), and is worth her weight in gold simply through the knowledge and expertise she possesses.
** For some, [[HeroicBuild Abby]] having the nickname "Abs" combined with her physique -- though it is meant as just as a convenient shortening of her name.
** For some, [[HeroicBuild Abby]] having the nickname "Abs" combined with her physique -- though it is meant as just as a convenient shortening of her name.
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This entry is factually incorrect. Ellie does not tell Jesse that Joel stopped the fireflies from making a vaccine; she tells him that Joel was a smuggler and that he and his killers had a disagreement about some cargo.
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** There's a moment where Ellie tells Jesse about how she found out why Abby killed Joel from Nora. She tells him that it was because Joel stopped the Fireflies from making a vaccine. However, Ashley Johnson delivered the line in a way that makes it seem like Ellie knows it's more than that. However, when Abby confronts Ellie at the theater, Ellie reiterates that same thing rather than revealing she knew about her father. This seems to indicate either the initial line's delivery was a weird one-off decision they made when recording it, or maybe it was there to cause the player to think about if Ellie knew rather than set up a moment of revelation that Ellie knew and still did the things she did from that point forward.
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** Since the game was leaked, many fans have bought into Joel's lie that there was no cure for the infection and that the Fireflies had experimented on many immune people before with no success.
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Transferred from main page. Also fixed to correct "three" to "four" since there are four listed beneath.
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* BrokenAesop: The game has the messages that violence isn't always the answer and revenge sometimes just becomes a cycle of violence and further revenge and can even destroy everyone you love, with an attempt to call players out on their treating death as nothing by making the death animations very brutal and giving every character a name. There are four problems with this, however:
** One: The game often gives you no choice but to kill [[BlamedForBeingRailroaded and will continue to call you out on it]], even if [[PacifistRun you avoid violence as much as the game will allow]]. Furthermore, although some wounded enemies [[VillainsWantMercy will beg and plead for mercy]], if you do decide to spare them then as soon as you turn your back and try to walk away, [[ISurrenderSuckers they'll get up and attack you anyway]].
** Two: Much of your killing/violence is in self-defense against those who have actively done worse things than you (like the Wolves, who kill anyone who happens upon them, danger or not).
** Three: Inconsistency of character reactions to killing and death. This one depends on the character.
*** Ellie avoids it. Each successive chapter, which if the game is played according to the typical gamer's behavior, has her violently killing swathes of Wolves and Seraphites, mostly in self-defense, and at times killing one of [[spoiler: Joel's murderers]]. This brings her nothing but agony. She's in a downward spiral psychologically and emotionally, being torn apart by what she's doing, as a real and truly decent, and traumatized, person would be in a world where ThereAreNoTherapists. It culminates in her killing [[spoiler: Owen and Mel when they try to fight against her, forcing her to kill them both...and she realizes to her horror that Mel was pregnant]], an act that she believes she can't come back from, and right after decides that revenge may not be worth it. Although she later continues her revenge, she initially rebuffs Tommy's encouragement to do so [[ToxicFriendInfluence until he guilt-trips her]]. The narrative treats her as being wrong for this: [[spoiler: She ends up losing basically everything that matters to her by the story's conclusion, and this is treated as being a result of her lust for revenge, which she doesn't really have.]]
*** Abby doesn't avoid it. Her character's ascent from HateSink begins when [[spoiler: she becomes playable, and it's clear through her dreams that killing Joel brought her nothing.]] The guilt from this subtly eats at her, encouraging her to try and find redemption by helping Yara and Lev escape the Seraphites. This is fine, but the problem starts when she's in active combat against Seraphites, wiping out swathes of them in the same way Ellie killed numerous Wolves. [[spoiler: Eventually, the Wolves, which she was part of for four years, betray her, forcing her to kill them.]] At no point does Abby express any [[AMillionIsAStatistic emotional turmoil or trauma over the deaths of these people]]. She's entirely unaffected by the massive amount of killing she does, flying in the face of the anti-violence aesop of the game. It gets worse when [[spoiler: she discovers Mel and Owen's bodies, and tracks Ellie down to her hideout, where she kills Jesse, beats everyone up, and gets ready to gleefully kill the pregnant Dina. The only reason she doesn't is ''not'' out of morality or guilt, but because of Lev's abject horror seeing that she was about to knowingly murder a pregnant woman.]] The narrative treats her as being right for this: [[spoiler: Abby is allowed to have these outbursts with little consequence, to the point of even getting inadvertently rescued from the Rattlers by Ellie in the end.]]
** Four: Despite the game’s message about how your enemies are people too and that every life is precious, almost every faction is borderline cartoonishly evil so you don’t feel bad about gunning down their [[{{Mook}} mooks]] en masse and there are several characters, up to and including [[spoiler: some of Abby’s friends, the people the game condemns Ellie for hunting down,]] whose violent and painful deaths are meant to be cathartic.
** One: The game often gives you no choice but to kill [[BlamedForBeingRailroaded and will continue to call you out on it]], even if [[PacifistRun you avoid violence as much as the game will allow]]. Furthermore, although some wounded enemies [[VillainsWantMercy will beg and plead for mercy]], if you do decide to spare them then as soon as you turn your back and try to walk away, [[ISurrenderSuckers they'll get up and attack you anyway]].
** Two: Much of your killing/violence is in self-defense against those who have actively done worse things than you (like the Wolves, who kill anyone who happens upon them, danger or not).
** Three: Inconsistency of character reactions to killing and death. This one depends on the character.
*** Ellie avoids it. Each successive chapter, which if the game is played according to the typical gamer's behavior, has her violently killing swathes of Wolves and Seraphites, mostly in self-defense, and at times killing one of [[spoiler: Joel's murderers]]. This brings her nothing but agony. She's in a downward spiral psychologically and emotionally, being torn apart by what she's doing, as a real and truly decent, and traumatized, person would be in a world where ThereAreNoTherapists. It culminates in her killing [[spoiler: Owen and Mel when they try to fight against her, forcing her to kill them both...and she realizes to her horror that Mel was pregnant]], an act that she believes she can't come back from, and right after decides that revenge may not be worth it. Although she later continues her revenge, she initially rebuffs Tommy's encouragement to do so [[ToxicFriendInfluence until he guilt-trips her]]. The narrative treats her as being wrong for this: [[spoiler: She ends up losing basically everything that matters to her by the story's conclusion, and this is treated as being a result of her lust for revenge, which she doesn't really have.]]
*** Abby doesn't avoid it. Her character's ascent from HateSink begins when [[spoiler: she becomes playable, and it's clear through her dreams that killing Joel brought her nothing.]] The guilt from this subtly eats at her, encouraging her to try and find redemption by helping Yara and Lev escape the Seraphites. This is fine, but the problem starts when she's in active combat against Seraphites, wiping out swathes of them in the same way Ellie killed numerous Wolves. [[spoiler: Eventually, the Wolves, which she was part of for four years, betray her, forcing her to kill them.]] At no point does Abby express any [[AMillionIsAStatistic emotional turmoil or trauma over the deaths of these people]]. She's entirely unaffected by the massive amount of killing she does, flying in the face of the anti-violence aesop of the game. It gets worse when [[spoiler: she discovers Mel and Owen's bodies, and tracks Ellie down to her hideout, where she kills Jesse, beats everyone up, and gets ready to gleefully kill the pregnant Dina. The only reason she doesn't is ''not'' out of morality or guilt, but because of Lev's abject horror seeing that she was about to knowingly murder a pregnant woman.]] The narrative treats her as being right for this: [[spoiler: Abby is allowed to have these outbursts with little consequence, to the point of even getting inadvertently rescued from the Rattlers by Ellie in the end.]]
** Four: Despite the game’s message about how your enemies are people too and that every life is precious, almost every faction is borderline cartoonishly evil so you don’t feel bad about gunning down their [[{{Mook}} mooks]] en masse and there are several characters, up to and including [[spoiler: some of Abby’s friends, the people the game condemns Ellie for hunting down,]] whose violent and painful deaths are meant to be cathartic.
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** [[spoiler: Joel's calm, [[FaceDeathWithDignity dignified]] words to Abby may indicate that he's expected to die like this for some time, acknowledging that he deserves it, and his sole (unanswered) plea is that Abby not do it in front of Ellie, meaning at least he has died as man who has relearned to value others' lives before his own.]]
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Added more context and reasoning as to why the WLF could be seen as Unintentionally Sympathetic in this situation.
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** The WLF crew on the Seraphite Island can be seen as this due to how they end up being [[spoiler: betrayed and potentially slaughtered by Abby when she chooses a child in the enemy faction over her own. The WLF had spent four years training, supplying, and feeding her, had given her a comfortable home to live in after the Fireflies had disbanded, and affectionately regarded her as their 'top Scar Killer', only to be repaid with her betrayal during a catastrophic battle on the island. As such, some players were put off by Abby's decision to abandon her loyal comrade in arms in the middle of a warzone in favour of a child she just met and bonded with within two days, especially when before meeting Yara and Lev, Abby had no qualms with going along with the WLF and killing any Scars she comes across. It doesn't help that the vast majority of the WLF soldiers weren't even present during Isaac's confrontation against Abby, which resulted in his death, leaving them genuinely clueless as to why their beloved comrade is now abandoning and even killing them without a shred of hesitation]].
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Needs to explain why they were supposed to be unsympathetic.
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** The WLF crew on the Seraphite Island can be seen as this due to how they end up being [[spoiler: betrayed and potentially slaughtered by Abby when she chooses Lev over her faction who had fed her, trained her, and gave her a home to live in for four years after the Fireflies had disbanded. It doesn't help that they were in the middle of a war against the Seraphites, and the vast majority who weren't present during Isaac's confrontation against Abby and his immediate death afterwards, all genuinely have no idea why their top Scar killer suddenly turned traitor to save a member of the enemy faction. As such, Abby's decision to abandon her comrades in the middle of a warzone in favor for a child she met and bonded within just two days would appear less heroic than intended]].
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** In No Return, there's the boss encounter with the Rattler Captain. While most other bosses pit you against infected variants or squads of the other enemy factions, the Rattler boss fight pits you against an ''incredibly'' well-armed and numerous group of Rattlers. They're ruthlessly efficient, they have a plethora of weapons and tactics to smoke you out, they bring dogs along to make running and hiding an absolute nightmare, and worst of all, they all have at least a little bit of armor. Oh, and they never stop spawning; the only way to win is to kill the captain. As a result, while the other final bosses of No Return can be challenging, the Rattlers can be just plain unfair.
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Removed without explanation
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** Joel ended up being viewed this way, both in this game and in retrospect to the previous one. [[spoiler:This game demonizes him as a selfish madman who doomed humanity, but this completely ignores the Fireflies' own excessively antagonistic nature towards him, which was so apparent that it almost got Ellie killed in the tunnel. In addition, [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5ulX06McSY the science is entirely on Joel's side]]. Even ignoring the ArtisticLicense as an AcceptableBreakFromReality, it's common knowledge that anyone with immunity ''must'' be alive to extract any kind of treatment for the fungus from them, making Joel's decision to save her, while rooted in personal reasons, the only sane and rational choice anyone made in the hospital. Some people also point out how the chances of producing a vaccine, though unlikely for the fungus, would've been extremely difficult for a doctor who doesn't even specialize in that kind of medicine and being able to produce and distribute copies of the vaccine to the entire world wouldn't be likely to happen, so Joel's decision to save Ellie is ultimately without a downside in the long run.]]
** The WLF crew on the Seraphite Island can be seen as this due to how they end up being [[spoiler: betrayed and potentially slaughtered by Abby when she chooses Lev over her faction who had fed her, trained her, and gave her a home to live in for four years after the Fireflies had disbanded. It doesn't help that they were in the middle of a war against the Seraphites, and the vast majority who weren't present during Isaac's confrontation against Abby and his immediate death afterwards, all genuinely have no idea why their top Scar killer suddenly turned traitor to save a member of the enemy faction. As such, Abby's decision to abandon her comrades in the middle of a warzone in favor for a child she met and bonded within just two days would appear less heroic than intended]].
** The WLF crew on the Seraphite Island can be seen as this due to how they end up being [[spoiler: betrayed and potentially slaughtered by Abby when she chooses Lev over her faction who had fed her, trained her, and gave her a home to live in for four years after the Fireflies had disbanded. It doesn't help that they were in the middle of a war against the Seraphites, and the vast majority who weren't present during Isaac's confrontation against Abby and his immediate death afterwards, all genuinely have no idea why their top Scar killer suddenly turned traitor to save a member of the enemy faction. As such, Abby's decision to abandon her comrades in the middle of a warzone in favor for a child she met and bonded within just two days would appear less heroic than intended]].
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** Joel ended up being viewed this way, both in this game and in retrospect to the previous one. [[spoiler:This game demonizes him as a selfish madman who doomed humanity, but this completely ignores the Fireflies' own excessively antagonistic nature towards him, which was so apparent that it almost got Ellie killed in the tunnel. In addition, [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5ulX06McSY the science is entirely on Joel's side]]. Even ignoring the ArtisticLicense as an AcceptableBreakFromReality, it's common knowledge that anyone with immunity ''must'' be alive to extract any kind of treatment for the fungus from them, making Joel's decision to save her, while rooted in personal reasons, the only sane and rational choice anyone made in the hospital. Some people also point out how the chances of producing a vaccine, though unlikely for the fungus, would've been extremely difficult for a doctor who doesn't even specialize in that kind of medicine and being able to produce and distribute copies of the vaccine to the entire world wouldn't be likely to happen, so Joel's decision to save Ellie is ultimately without a downside in the long run.]]
** The WLF crew on the Seraphite Island can be seen as this due to how they end up being [[spoiler: betrayed and potentially slaughtered by Abby when she chooses Lev over her faction who had fed her, trained her, and gave her a home to live in for four years after the Fireflies had disbanded. It doesn't help that they were in the middle of a war against the Seraphites, and the vast majority who weren't present during Isaac's confrontation against Abby and his immediate death afterwards, all genuinely have no idea why their top Scar killer suddenly turned traitor to save a member of the enemy faction. As such, Abby's decision to abandon her comrades in the middle of a warzone in favor for a child she met and bonded within just two days would appear less heroic than intended]].
** The WLF crew on the Seraphite Island can be seen as this due to how they end up being [[spoiler: betrayed and potentially slaughtered by Abby when she chooses Lev over her faction who had fed her, trained her, and gave her a home to live in for four years after the Fireflies had disbanded. It doesn't help that they were in the middle of a war against the Seraphites, and the vast majority who weren't present during Isaac's confrontation against Abby and his immediate death afterwards, all genuinely have no idea why their top Scar killer suddenly turned traitor to save a member of the enemy faction. As such, Abby's decision to abandon her comrades in the middle of a warzone in favor for a child she met and bonded within just two days would appear less heroic than intended]].
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** The WLF crew on the Seraphite Island can be seen as this due to how they end up being [[spoiler: betrayed and potentially slaughtered by Abby when she chooses Lev over her faction who had fed her, trained her, and gave her a home to live in for four years after the Fireflies had disbanded. It doesn't help that they were in the middle of a war against the Seraphites, and the vast majority who weren't present during Isaac's confrontation against Abby and his immediate death afterwards, all genuinely have no idea why their top Scar killer suddenly turned traitor to save a member of the enemy faction. As such, Abby's decision to abandon her comrades in the middle of a warzone in favor for a child she met and bonded within just two days would appear less heroic than intended]].
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** There's a moment where Ellie tells Jessie about how she found out why Abby killed Joel from Nora. She tells him that it was because Joel stopped the Fireflies from making a vaccine. However, Ashley Johnson delivered the line in a way that makes it seem like Ellie knows it's more than that. However, when Abby confronts Ellie at the theater, Ellie reiterates that same thing rather than revealing she knew about her father. This seems to indicate either the initial line's delivery was a weird one-off decision they made when recording it, or maybe it was there to cause the player to think about if Ellie knew rather than set up a moment of revelation that Ellie knew and still did the things she did from that point forward.
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** There's a moment where Ellie tells Jessie Jesse about how she found out why Abby killed Joel from Nora. She tells him that it was because Joel stopped the Fireflies from making a vaccine. However, Ashley Johnson delivered the line in a way that makes it seem like Ellie knows it's more than that. However, when Abby confronts Ellie at the theater, Ellie reiterates that same thing rather than revealing she knew about her father. This seems to indicate either the initial line's delivery was a weird one-off decision they made when recording it, or maybe it was there to cause the player to think about if Ellie knew rather than set up a moment of revelation that Ellie knew and still did the things she did from that point forward.
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** There's a moment where Ellie tells Jesse about how she found out why Abby killed Joel from Nora. She tells him that it was because Joel stopped the Fireflies from making a vaccine. However, Ashley Johnson delivered the line in a way that makes it seem like Ellie knows it's more than that. However, when Abby confronts Ellie at the theater, Ellie reiterates that same thing rather than revealing she knew about her father. This seems to indicate either the initial line's delivery was a weird one-off decision they made when recording it, or maybe it was there to cause the player to think about if Ellie knew rather than set up a moment of revelation that Ellie knew and still did the things she did from that point forward.
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** There's a moment where Ellie tells Jesse Jessie about how she found out why Abby killed Joel from Nora. She tells him that it was because Joel stopped the Fireflies from making a vaccine. However, Ashley Johnson delivered the line in a way that makes it seem like Ellie knows it's more than that. However, when Abby confronts Ellie at the theater, Ellie reiterates that same thing rather than revealing she knew about her father. This seems to indicate either the initial line's delivery was a weird one-off decision they made when recording it, or maybe it was there to cause the player to think about if Ellie knew rather than set up a moment of revelation that Ellie knew and still did the things she did from that point forward.
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*** She was portrayed as having undergone redeeming CharacterDevelopment after [[spoiler:brutally murdering Joel]] as revenge for his killing of her father, realizing [[VengeanceFeelsEmpty it wasn't worth it]] and thus deservedly gets better off than [[TragicHero Ellie who would remain consumed with revenge]] [[spoiler:until the ending]]. This rang hollow to many due to Abby's continued cruelties such as gleefully attempting to kill [[spoiler:Dina after learning she was pregnant stopping only because [[MoralityChain Lev]] told her to while Ellie [[MyGodWhatHaveIDone is guilt ridden]] after realizing Mel who she killed was pregnant and her other actions and ultimately struggled and chose to break the CycleOfRevenge unlike Abby]]. Abby's karma of losing her friends [[spoiler:and pet dog]] to Ellie's RoaringRampageOfRevenge was seen by many instead as everyone but Abby suffering for it. To make matters worse, [[spoiler:her father's death was partially her fault-he was initially hesitant about performing the operation on Ellie, but she talked him into it-but that's never addressed anywhere.]][[note]] After playing the game, Abby's voice actress Creator/LauraBailey thinks that Abby was ''[[https://www.gameinformer.com/interview/2020/12/26/looking-back-with-laura-bailey intentionally]]'' unsympathetic. Her exact words being "You're not supposed to [like her]". [[/note]] %%Entry approved at https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15194292110A03429900&page=18#comment-439 Don't edit without approval.%%
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*** She was portrayed as having undergone redeeming CharacterDevelopment after [[spoiler:brutally murdering Joel]] as revenge for his killing of her father, realizing [[VengeanceFeelsEmpty it wasn't worth it]] and thus deservedly gets better off than [[TragicHero Ellie who would remain consumed with revenge]] [[spoiler:until the ending]]. This rang hollow to many due to Abby's continued cruelties such as gleefully attempting to kill [[spoiler:Dina after learning she was pregnant stopping only because [[MoralityChain Lev]] told looked horrified at her to while Ellie [[MyGodWhatHaveIDone is guilt ridden]] after realizing Mel who she killed was pregnant and her other actions and ultimately struggled and chose to break the CycleOfRevenge unlike Abby]]. Abby's karma of losing her friends [[spoiler:and pet dog]] to Ellie's RoaringRampageOfRevenge was seen by many instead as everyone but Abby suffering for it. To make matters worse, [[spoiler:her father's death was partially her fault-he was initially hesitant about performing the operation on Ellie, but she talked him into it-but that's never addressed anywhere.]][[note]] After playing the game, Abby's voice actress Creator/LauraBailey thinks that Abby was ''[[https://www.gameinformer.com/interview/2020/12/26/looking-back-with-laura-bailey intentionally]]'' unsympathetic. Her exact words being "You're not supposed to [like her]". [[/note]] %%Entry approved at https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15194292110A03429900&page=18#comment-439 Don't edit without approval.%%
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** There's a moment where Ellie tells Jesse about how she found out why Abby killed Joel from Nora. She tells him that it was because Joel stopped the Fireflies from making a vaccine. However, Ashley Johnson delivered the line in a way that makes it seem like Ellie knows it's more than that. However, when Abby confronts Ellie at the theater, Ellie reiterates that same thing rather than revealing she knew about her father. This seems to indicate either the initial line's delivery was a weird one-off decision they made when recording it, or maybe it was there to cause the player to think about if Ellie knew rather than set up a moment of revelation that Ellie knew and still did the things she did from that point forward.
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** The [[SugarWiki/VisualEffectsOfAwesome game's startling beauty and rich atmosphere]] only make the [[YouALLLookFamiliar recycled character models]] stand out all the more, and killing the same mook five times in rapid succession can really take you out of the moment.
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** The [[SugarWiki/VisualEffectsOfAwesome game's startling beauty and rich atmosphere]] only make the [[YouALLLookFamiliar [[YouAllLookFamiliar recycled character models]] stand out all the more, and killing the same mook five times in rapid succession can really take you out of the moment.
