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As to why none of this was mentioned, for example, in any of the meetings between the Forsaken in Tel'aran'rhiod in book five this could be because a) it had already been discussed prior to Nynaeve listening in or us getting to witness the talks b) [[spoiler:Graendal]] didn't know Lanfear took Asmo, just that he vanished, so while she might guess what happened after Lanfear suddenly has knowledge of Asmo's treachery, she can't confront her and prove it, or c) as we knew from her thoughts and comments in Lord of Chaos and has now been confirmed in Towers of Midnight, [[spoiler:Graendal]] does not like to share her plots with others. So she would never admit to allying with Asmo or killing him (let alone to Lanfear having snatched him away from her).
to:
As to why none of this was mentioned, for example, in any of the meetings between the Forsaken in Tel'aran'rhiod in book five this could be because a) it had already been discussed prior to Nynaeve listening in or us getting to witness the talks b) [[spoiler:Graendal]] didn't know Lanfear took Asmo, just that he vanished, so while she might guess what happened after Lanfear suddenly has knowledge of Asmo's treachery, she can't confront her and prove it, or c) as we knew from her thoughts and comments in Lord ''Lord of Chaos Chaos'' and has now been confirmed in Towers ''Towers of Midnight, Midnight'', [[spoiler:Graendal]] does not like to share her plots with others. So she would never admit to allying with Asmo or killing him (let alone to Lanfear having snatched him away from her).
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* When Rand is talking to Asmodean about the Forsaken and where they are located, he notes that [[spoiler:he has spent some time in Arad Doman, and also that he knew Graendal had been there]]. The implication is that this is the "hole" in which he'd been hiding when Lanfear found him.
::What was he doing there? Consider that Asmodean was the weakest of the Forsaken, meaning a) he'd want to be as far from Rand and his allies as possible and b) he'd want to attach himself to a powerful Forsaken, both for protection and to help increase his own standing and further whatever plots or designs he might have. At the same time, he would not work with anyone he hated or feared. The two most powerful Forsaken, Lanfear and Ishamael, he feared. (Plus at that point Ishamael was dead.) From comments made by him and others, he seemed to greatly dislike Demandred and Sammael, and the feeling was mutual. He also feared Semirhage. But [[spoiler:Graendal]] had always been the most powerful Forsaken, after Ishamael and Lanfear--not in terms of the One Power (though she was strong) but in terms of her influence, information, and political/manipulative skills. He never expresses fear of her, either. We learn from her thoughts in book thirteen that she was once a good person, unlike most of the Forsaken; so was Asmodean, something they had in common. Lastly, the sort of retreat she created, [[spoiler:one filled with beautiful people, fine things, relics of the Age of Legends, and overall a sense of culture and the elite]], would appeal very much to a bard such as he.
::What was he doing there? Consider that Asmodean was the weakest of the Forsaken, meaning a) he'd want to be as far from Rand and his allies as possible and b) he'd want to attach himself to a powerful Forsaken, both for protection and to help increase his own standing and further whatever plots or designs he might have. At the same time, he would not work with anyone he hated or feared. The two most powerful Forsaken, Lanfear and Ishamael, he feared. (Plus at that point Ishamael was dead.) From comments made by him and others, he seemed to greatly dislike Demandred and Sammael, and the feeling was mutual. He also feared Semirhage. But [[spoiler:Graendal]] had always been the most powerful Forsaken, after Ishamael and Lanfear--not in terms of the One Power (though she was strong) but in terms of her influence, information, and political/manipulative skills. He never expresses fear of her, either. We learn from her thoughts in book thirteen that she was once a good person, unlike most of the Forsaken; so was Asmodean, something they had in common. Lastly, the sort of retreat she created, [[spoiler:one filled with beautiful people, fine things, relics of the Age of Legends, and overall a sense of culture and the elite]], would appeal very much to a bard such as he.
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* When Rand is talking to Asmodean about the Forsaken and where they are located, he notes that [[spoiler:he has spent some time in Arad Doman, and also that he knew Graendal had been there]]. The implication is that this is the "hole" in which he'd been hiding when Lanfear found him.
::Whathim.\\
What was he doing there? Consider that Asmodean was the weakest of the Forsaken, meaning a) he'd want to be as far from Rand and his allies as possible and b) he'd want to attach himself to a powerful Forsaken, both for protection and to help increase his own standing and further whatever plots or designs he might have. At the same time, he would not work with anyone he hated or feared. The two most powerful Forsaken, Lanfear and Ishamael, he feared. (Plus at that point Ishamael was dead.) From comments made by him and others, he seemed to greatly dislike Demandred and Sammael, and the feeling was mutual. He also feared Semirhage. But [[spoiler:Graendal]] had always been the most powerful Forsaken, after Ishamael and Lanfear--not in terms of the One Power (though she was strong) but in terms of her influence, information, and political/manipulative skills. He never expresses fear of her, either. We learn from her thoughts in book thirteen that she was once a good person, unlike most of the Forsaken; so was Asmodean, something they had in common. Lastly, the sort of retreat she created, [[spoiler:one filled with beautiful people, fine things, relics of the Age of Legends, and overall a sense of culture and the elite]], would appeal very much to a bard such as he.
::What
What was he doing there? Consider that Asmodean was the weakest of the Forsaken, meaning a) he'd want to be as far from Rand and his allies as possible and b) he'd want to attach himself to a powerful Forsaken, both for protection and to help increase his own standing and further whatever plots or designs he might have. At the same time, he would not work with anyone he hated or feared. The two most powerful Forsaken, Lanfear and Ishamael, he feared. (Plus at that point Ishamael was dead.) From comments made by him and others, he seemed to greatly dislike Demandred and Sammael, and the feeling was mutual. He also feared Semirhage. But [[spoiler:Graendal]] had always been the most powerful Forsaken, after Ishamael and Lanfear--not in terms of the One Power (though she was strong) but in terms of her influence, information, and political/manipulative skills. He never expresses fear of her, either. We learn from her thoughts in book thirteen that she was once a good person, unlike most of the Forsaken; so was Asmodean, something they had in common. Lastly, the sort of retreat she created, [[spoiler:one filled with beautiful people, fine things, relics of the Age of Legends, and overall a sense of culture and the elite]], would appeal very much to a bard such as he.
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-When Rand dreams of swimming in a waterhole with Min and Elayne, Lanfear shows up to get jealous, then Asmodean. She chastises him for almost giving their game plan away and then notes "he would still be hiding in his hole" if she had not hauled him out.
-When Rand is talking to Asmodean about the Forsaken and where they are located, he notes that [[spoiler:he has spent some time in Arad Doman, and also that he knew Graendal had been there]]. The implication is that this is the "hole" in which he'd been hiding when Lanfear found him.
What was he doing there? Consider that Asmodean was the weakest of the Forsaken, meaning a) he'd want to be as far from Rand and his allies as possible and b) he'd want to attach himself to a powerful Forsaken, both for protection and to help increase his own standing and further whatever plots or designs he might have. At the same time, he would not work with anyone he hated or feared. The two most powerful Forsaken, Lanfear and Ishamael, he feared. (Plus at that point Ishamael was dead.) From comments made by him and others, he seemed to greatly dislike Demandred and Sammael, and the feeling was mutual. He also feared Semirhage. But [[spoiler:Graendal]] had always been the most powerful Forsaken, after Ishamael and Lanfear--not in terms of the One Power (though she was strong) but in terms of her influence, information, and political/manipulative skills. He never expresses fear of her, either. We learn from her thoughts in book thirteen that she was once a good person, unlike most of the Forsaken; so was Asmodean, something they had in common. Lastly, the sort of retreat she created, [[spoiler:one filled with beautiful people, fine things, relics of the Age of Legends, and overall a sense of culture and the elite]], would appeal very much to a bard such as he.
-When Rand is talking to Asmodean about the Forsaken and where they are located, he notes that [[spoiler:he has spent some time in Arad Doman, and also that he knew Graendal had been there]]. The implication is that this is the "hole" in which he'd been hiding when Lanfear found him.
What was he doing there? Consider that Asmodean was the weakest of the Forsaken, meaning a) he'd want to be as far from Rand and his allies as possible and b) he'd want to attach himself to a powerful Forsaken, both for protection and to help increase his own standing and further whatever plots or designs he might have. At the same time, he would not work with anyone he hated or feared. The two most powerful Forsaken, Lanfear and Ishamael, he feared. (Plus at that point Ishamael was dead.) From comments made by him and others, he seemed to greatly dislike Demandred and Sammael, and the feeling was mutual. He also feared Semirhage. But [[spoiler:Graendal]] had always been the most powerful Forsaken, after Ishamael and Lanfear--not in terms of the One Power (though she was strong) but in terms of her influence, information, and political/manipulative skills. He never expresses fear of her, either. We learn from her thoughts in book thirteen that she was once a good person, unlike most of the Forsaken; so was Asmodean, something they had in common. Lastly, the sort of retreat she created, [[spoiler:one filled with beautiful people, fine things, relics of the Age of Legends, and overall a sense of culture and the elite]], would appeal very much to a bard such as he.
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[[WMG:[[spoiler:Graendal]]]] [[WMG:killed Asmodean because he knew too much about her.]]
As of book thirteen, we FINALLY know who killed Asmodean, though a number of points are left unexplained and can only be implied or reasonably inferred. To run down the checklist from one of the major Wheel of Time websites:
As of book thirteen, we FINALLY know who killed Asmodean, though a number of points are left unexplained and can only be implied or reasonably inferred. To run down the checklist from one of the major Wheel of Time websites:
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As of book thirteen, we FINALLY know
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[[WMG:[[spoiler:Graendal]] killed Asmodean because he knew too much about her.]]
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[[WMG: [[spoiler:Graendal]] killed Asmodean because he knew too much about her.]]
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* Sadly, this has been Jossed too. But see a new theory below...
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* As of the thirteenth book, Moiraine [[spoiler: not only likes Thom, but outright loves him. They're even going to be married, over Mat's utter shock]].
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* As of the thirteenth book, Moiraine [[spoiler: not only likes Thom, but outright loves him. They're even going to be married, over Mat's utter shock]].
shock]]. And he even asks her [[spoiler:if he will be her Warder now, and if he can have a fancloth cloak made with gleeman patches, which manages to be a CrowningMomentOfFunny and CrowningMomentOfHeartwarming at the same time]].
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** Jossed, since [[spoiler:Aran'gar is now dead and can't be brought back]], and it seems very likely that with Rand [[spoiler:integrated with Lews Therin, he can't use the True Power anymore]].
** Considering what happened to Rand at the end of book twelve, and what we now know about him from book thirteen, it seems unlikely he's able to use the True Power anymore. Whether his newfound PersonOfMassDestruction-hood will be enough to seal the Bore or even destroy the Dark One, who knows. Then again, his newfound power may make him strong enough to draw on the True Power without the Dark One's permission, ''or'' being corrupted by it. Sometimes it pays to be TheChosenOne.
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<<|WildMassGuessing|>>
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[[WMG:Ishmael is the Dark One.]]
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* Also, the Forsaken say that Moridin is as insane as he was in his old incarnation and thought Moridin believed he was the Dark Lord. Ishamael called himself Ba'alzamon and later books after his death have the Forsaken commenting on him, saying he actually believed this. However, Moridin showing up at the same time Asmodean died could mean he's the killer.
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* Also, the Forsaken say that Moridin is as insane as he was in his old incarnation and thought Moridin believed he was the Dark Lord. Ishamael called himself Ba'alzamon and later books after his death have the Forsaken commenting on him, saying he actually believed this. However, Moridin showing up at the same time Asmodean died could mean he's the killer.killer.
[[WMG: [[spoiler:Graendal]] killed Asmodean because he knew too much about her.]]
As of book thirteen, we FINALLY know who killed Asmodean, though a number of points are left unexplained and can only be implied or reasonably inferred. To run down the checklist from one of the major Wheel of Time websites:
# Means: [[spoiler:she could use the True Power]], hence why neither Rand nor Aviendha could sense her.
# Motive: [[spoiler:to become Nae'blis ([[TheStarscream and cast Moridin down]]) by getting rid of a traitor.]]
# Opportunity: [[spoiler:Not confirmed, but the theory that she was one of the two "servants" cowering in the corridor, and that she was supposed to have been in Caemlyn helping Rahvin, which is why he was surprised at Rand getting into the palace, seems very convincing now.]]
# Be a person Asmodean recognized, who he didn't expect to see, and of whom he was terrified: [[spoiler:First one is obvious since she's a Forsaken, and under the Two Servants Theory would have dropped her disguise while in the pantry as she did with Sammael while meeting the Shaido. Second one: as far as he knew, she was in Arad Doman and never left there. As for the third, read and find out...]]
# Be able to dispose of the body: See point 1. As to why she would, be patient...
# Must know Asmodean's fate: [[spoiler:Her thoughts and comments during her talk with Sammael in Lord of Chaos, where she insisted he was dead, give this away.]]
Which just leaves unexplained why this was kept secret so long, and how it was "intuitively obvious" [[spoiler:Graendal]] was the killer. The explanation for this, for why Asmo was terrified when he saw her, and why she destroyed the body rather than leaving it to warn the other Forsaken about what happens to traitors, is all explained by another, more personal, enterprising motive she had for killing him besides [[spoiler:becoming Nae'blis]]. Please direct your attention to the following points, from ''The Shadow Rising'' and ''The Fires of Heaven'':
-When Rand dreams of swimming in a waterhole with Min and Elayne, Lanfear shows up to get jealous, then Asmodean. She chastises him for almost giving their game plan away and then notes "he would still be hiding in his hole" if she had not hauled him out.
-When Rand is talking to Asmodean about the Forsaken and where they are located, he notes that [[spoiler:he has spent some time in Arad Doman, and also that he knew Graendal had been there]]. The implication is that this is the "hole" in which he'd been hiding when Lanfear found him.
What was he doing there? Consider that Asmodean was the weakest of the Forsaken, meaning a) he'd want to be as far from Rand and his allies as possible and b) he'd want to attach himself to a powerful Forsaken, both for protection and to help increase his own standing and further whatever plots or designs he might have. At the same time, he would not work with anyone he hated or feared. The two most powerful Forsaken, Lanfear and Ishamael, he feared. (Plus at that point Ishamael was dead.) From comments made by him and others, he seemed to greatly dislike Demandred and Sammael, and the feeling was mutual. He also feared Semirhage. But [[spoiler:Graendal]] had always been the most powerful Forsaken, after Ishamael and Lanfear--not in terms of the One Power (though she was strong) but in terms of her influence, information, and political/manipulative skills. He never expresses fear of her, either. We learn from her thoughts in book thirteen that she was once a good person, unlike most of the Forsaken; so was Asmodean, something they had in common. Lastly, the sort of retreat she created, [[spoiler:one filled with beautiful people, fine things, relics of the Age of Legends, and overall a sense of culture and the elite]], would appeal very much to a bard such as he.
So, either one of two things happened. Either he was outright allied with, and a part of, [[spoiler:Graendal's]] coterie until Lanfear absconded with him (likely via the World of Dreams) to make him Rand's teacher, or he had simply ferreted out where she was hiding. The latter sounds rather out-of-character, both in terms of his abilities (Asmo was not a spy or sneak, nor very good at either) and his personality (a weaselly coward who wouldn't take the risk of being discovered). But either way, [[spoiler:Graendal]] knew (or figured out) he knew where she was. Note that ''no other Forsaken'', aside from [[spoiler:Sammael]], knew where she was hiding, at most only suspecting. Yet Asmodean did know.
Put that together with his later 'treachery', and [[spoiler:Graendal's]] further motivation for killing him becomes clear. On the one hand, Asmodean was the only one who could give away where she was hiding, both to Rand and the other Forsaken. Killing him would silence him, assuming he hadn't already blown the whistle on her. (He had, but she didn't know this.) At the same time, if he had not merely discovered where she was but had been allied with her for a time, the fact he seemingly defected might have shed suspicion on her loyalties too, particularly with their common bonds (a once good past). Kill him, and she looks like a loyal Chosen to the others as well as to the Dark One.
This explains why he would be terrified when he saw her: because he knew she was there to silence him and/or punish him for giving her away to Rand, as well as for turning traitor. Why did she destroy the body? Because leaving it to be found would make Rand wonder why he was killed, and thus he would lend more credence to any information Asmo had given him as being true. And telling the other Forsaken about it [[spoiler:would give away she was trying to curry favor so as to become Nae'blis]].
Hiding the fact she and Asmo had been allied, as well as that she was offing a traitor [[spoiler:not on the Dark One's orders, but so as to impress him and become Nae'blis]], is why this was kept secret. And the fact he knew she was [[spoiler:in Arad Doman]] when nobody else did, coupled with him having been "hiding in a hole" somewhere, should have made it obvious to the reader that she would be the one to kill him, to prevent him from telling Rand where she was.
As to why none of this was mentioned, for example, in any of the meetings between the Forsaken in Tel'aran'rhiod in book five this could be because a) it had already been discussed prior to Nynaeve listening in or us getting to witness the talks b) [[spoiler:Graendal]] didn't know Lanfear took Asmo, just that he vanished, so while she might guess what happened after Lanfear suddenly has knowledge of Asmo's treachery, she can't confront her and prove it, or c) as we knew from her thoughts and comments in Lord of Chaos and has now been confirmed in Towers of Midnight, [[spoiler:Graendal]] does not like to share her plots with others. So she would never admit to allying with Asmo or killing him (let alone to Lanfear having snatched him away from her).
What makes this a WMG, of course, is that while all of this is logical and makes sense, unless we ever get another POV from [[spoiler:Graendal]] it can never be proven.
<<|WildMassGuessing|>>
[[WMG: [[spoiler:Graendal]] killed Asmodean because he knew too much about her.]]
As of book thirteen, we FINALLY know who killed Asmodean, though a number of points are left unexplained and can only be implied or reasonably inferred. To run down the checklist from one of the major Wheel of Time websites:
# Means: [[spoiler:she could use the True Power]], hence why neither Rand nor Aviendha could sense her.
# Motive: [[spoiler:to become Nae'blis ([[TheStarscream and cast Moridin down]]) by getting rid of a traitor.]]
# Opportunity: [[spoiler:Not confirmed, but the theory that she was one of the two "servants" cowering in the corridor, and that she was supposed to have been in Caemlyn helping Rahvin, which is why he was surprised at Rand getting into the palace, seems very convincing now.]]
# Be a person Asmodean recognized, who he didn't expect to see, and of whom he was terrified: [[spoiler:First one is obvious since she's a Forsaken, and under the Two Servants Theory would have dropped her disguise while in the pantry as she did with Sammael while meeting the Shaido. Second one: as far as he knew, she was in Arad Doman and never left there. As for the third, read and find out...]]
# Be able to dispose of the body: See point 1. As to why she would, be patient...
# Must know Asmodean's fate: [[spoiler:Her thoughts and comments during her talk with Sammael in Lord of Chaos, where she insisted he was dead, give this away.]]
Which just leaves unexplained why this was kept secret so long, and how it was "intuitively obvious" [[spoiler:Graendal]] was the killer. The explanation for this, for why Asmo was terrified when he saw her, and why she destroyed the body rather than leaving it to warn the other Forsaken about what happens to traitors, is all explained by another, more personal, enterprising motive she had for killing him besides [[spoiler:becoming Nae'blis]]. Please direct your attention to the following points, from ''The Shadow Rising'' and ''The Fires of Heaven'':
-When Rand dreams of swimming in a waterhole with Min and Elayne, Lanfear shows up to get jealous, then Asmodean. She chastises him for almost giving their game plan away and then notes "he would still be hiding in his hole" if she had not hauled him out.
-When Rand is talking to Asmodean about the Forsaken and where they are located, he notes that [[spoiler:he has spent some time in Arad Doman, and also that he knew Graendal had been there]]. The implication is that this is the "hole" in which he'd been hiding when Lanfear found him.
What was he doing there? Consider that Asmodean was the weakest of the Forsaken, meaning a) he'd want to be as far from Rand and his allies as possible and b) he'd want to attach himself to a powerful Forsaken, both for protection and to help increase his own standing and further whatever plots or designs he might have. At the same time, he would not work with anyone he hated or feared. The two most powerful Forsaken, Lanfear and Ishamael, he feared. (Plus at that point Ishamael was dead.) From comments made by him and others, he seemed to greatly dislike Demandred and Sammael, and the feeling was mutual. He also feared Semirhage. But [[spoiler:Graendal]] had always been the most powerful Forsaken, after Ishamael and Lanfear--not in terms of the One Power (though she was strong) but in terms of her influence, information, and political/manipulative skills. He never expresses fear of her, either. We learn from her thoughts in book thirteen that she was once a good person, unlike most of the Forsaken; so was Asmodean, something they had in common. Lastly, the sort of retreat she created, [[spoiler:one filled with beautiful people, fine things, relics of the Age of Legends, and overall a sense of culture and the elite]], would appeal very much to a bard such as he.
So, either one of two things happened. Either he was outright allied with, and a part of, [[spoiler:Graendal's]] coterie until Lanfear absconded with him (likely via the World of Dreams) to make him Rand's teacher, or he had simply ferreted out where she was hiding. The latter sounds rather out-of-character, both in terms of his abilities (Asmo was not a spy or sneak, nor very good at either) and his personality (a weaselly coward who wouldn't take the risk of being discovered). But either way, [[spoiler:Graendal]] knew (or figured out) he knew where she was. Note that ''no other Forsaken'', aside from [[spoiler:Sammael]], knew where she was hiding, at most only suspecting. Yet Asmodean did know.
Put that together with his later 'treachery', and [[spoiler:Graendal's]] further motivation for killing him becomes clear. On the one hand, Asmodean was the only one who could give away where she was hiding, both to Rand and the other Forsaken. Killing him would silence him, assuming he hadn't already blown the whistle on her. (He had, but she didn't know this.) At the same time, if he had not merely discovered where she was but had been allied with her for a time, the fact he seemingly defected might have shed suspicion on her loyalties too, particularly with their common bonds (a once good past). Kill him, and she looks like a loyal Chosen to the others as well as to the Dark One.
This explains why he would be terrified when he saw her: because he knew she was there to silence him and/or punish him for giving her away to Rand, as well as for turning traitor. Why did she destroy the body? Because leaving it to be found would make Rand wonder why he was killed, and thus he would lend more credence to any information Asmo had given him as being true. And telling the other Forsaken about it [[spoiler:would give away she was trying to curry favor so as to become Nae'blis]].
Hiding the fact she and Asmo had been allied, as well as that she was offing a traitor [[spoiler:not on the Dark One's orders, but so as to impress him and become Nae'blis]], is why this was kept secret. And the fact he knew she was [[spoiler:in Arad Doman]] when nobody else did, coupled with him having been "hiding in a hole" somewhere, should have made it obvious to the reader that she would be the one to kill him, to prevent him from telling Rand where she was.
As to why none of this was mentioned, for example, in any of the meetings between the Forsaken in Tel'aran'rhiod in book five this could be because a) it had already been discussed prior to Nynaeve listening in or us getting to witness the talks b) [[spoiler:Graendal]] didn't know Lanfear took Asmo, just that he vanished, so while she might guess what happened after Lanfear suddenly has knowledge of Asmo's treachery, she can't confront her and prove it, or c) as we knew from her thoughts and comments in Lord of Chaos and has now been confirmed in Towers of Midnight, [[spoiler:Graendal]] does not like to share her plots with others. So she would never admit to allying with Asmo or killing him (let alone to Lanfear having snatched him away from her).
What makes this a WMG, of course, is that while all of this is logical and makes sense, unless we ever get another POV from [[spoiler:Graendal]] it can never be proven.
<<|WildMassGuessing|>>
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** Jossed, at least in part, by Towers of Midnight. Lanfear was weaker as Cyndane [[spoiler:because the Aelfinn and Eelfinn can actually drain the One Power from somebody, and that includes the talent for using it rather than just what somebody is holding]]. [[spoiler: Lanfear was saved by the Dark One before it got too bad]], [[spoiler:but Moiraine was reduced to what is probably about what Siuan currently has, if not less]].
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* As of the thirteenth book, Moiraine [[spoiler: not only likes Thom, but outright loves him. They're even going to be married, over Mat's utter shock]].
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** Well, considering that love can have many subjective definitions, the amount of shit Rand's busy trying to deal with, his normal treatment of women and the fact that the series never really delves all ''that'' deeply into his feelings for them, you could very well be right, but there's more evidence so far to suggest he does love them than there is that he doesn't.
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* Well, Rand (who knew all the Forsaken as Lews Therin Telamon) believes that Moridin is Ishamael, though I suppose that could be a deliberate false lead on either the Dark One's or Moridin's part. Also, Asmodean died a traitor- why would the Dark One ''want'' him back, much less in a position of authority? He even seemed somewhat ''repentant'' at the end, while the DO has always favored the CompleteMonster.
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* Well, Rand (who knew all the Forsaken as Lews Therin Telamon) believes that Moridin is Ishamael, though I suppose that could be a deliberate false lead on either the Dark One's or Moridin's part. Also, Asmodean died a traitor- why would the Dark One ''want'' him back, much less in a position of authority? He even seemed somewhat ''repentant'' at the end, while the DO has always favored the CompleteMonster.CompleteMonster.
* Also, the Forsaken say that Moridin is as insane as he was in his old incarnation and thought Moridin believed he was the Dark Lord. Ishamael called himself Ba'alzamon and later books after his death have the Forsaken commenting on him, saying he actually believed this. However, Moridin showing up at the same time Asmodean died could mean he's the killer.
* Also, the Forsaken say that Moridin is as insane as he was in his old incarnation and thought Moridin believed he was the Dark Lord. Ishamael called himself Ba'alzamon and later books after his death have the Forsaken commenting on him, saying he actually believed this. However, Moridin showing up at the same time Asmodean died could mean he's the killer.
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* Well, Rand (who knew all the Forsaken as Lews Therin Telamon) believes that Moridin is Ishamael, though I suppose that could be a deliberate false lead on either the Dark One's or Moridin's part. Also, Asmodean died a traitor- why would the Dark One ''want'' him back, much less in a position of authority? He even seemed somewhat ''repentant'' at the end, while the DO has always favored the CompleteMonster.
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Changed line(s) 64,66 (click to see context) from:
* The same way Bayle Domon, Eaganin, Aludra, Valan Luca, and probably some others I'm forgetting each become very important in unrelated plotlines. [[strike: Robert Jordan]] the Pattern says so.
** Eaganin and Valan Luca are also notable in the fact that they become recurrent before having been ''ta'veren''ed (which is the standard excuse for bringing back characters).
** Eaganin and Valan Luca are also notable in the fact that they become recurrent before having been ''ta'veren''ed (which is the standard excuse for bringing back characters).
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* The same way Bayle Domon, Eaganin, Egeanin, Aludra, Valan Luca, and probably some others I'm forgetting each become very important in unrelated plotlines. [[strike: Robert Jordan]] the Pattern says so.
**Eaganin Egeanin and Valan Luca are also notable in the fact that they become recurrent before having been ''ta'veren''ed (which is the standard excuse for bringing back characters).
**
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Alternativley The wheel of time is a part of the LotusEaterMachine created by the anti spiral king.
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Changed line(s) 271 (click to see context) from:
Think about this for a moment. Asmodean is described as the least powerful of the Forsaken in the One Power. Moridin almost exclusively relies on the True Power. Moridin only really showed up after Asmodean kicked it. Cyndane (aka Lanfear) has a deep hatred for him, which could be more than just being made his servant. My theory is this: After meeting his end at the end of book 5, Asmodean is ressurected as Moridin in secret, then sent to organise the rest of the Forsaken into an organised force, rather than a squabbling bunch of ninnies by whatever means possible. It's mentioned that the Dark One has a cruel sense of humour, so why not have the one perceived as the weakest Forsaken made into the leader?
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Think about this for a moment. Asmodean is described as the least powerful of the Forsaken in the One Power. Moridin almost exclusively relies on the True Power. Moridin only really showed up after Asmodean kicked it. Cyndane (aka Lanfear) has a deep hatred for him, which could be more than just being made his servant. My theory is this: After meeting his end at the end of book 5, Asmodean is ressurected as Moridin in secret, then sent to organise the rest of the Forsaken into an organised force, rather than a squabbling bunch of ninnies by whatever means possible. It's mentioned that the Dark One has a cruel sense of humour, so why not have the one perceived as the weakest Forsaken made into the leader?
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Loial has mentioned that there are several Way Gates connecting to The Blight. I think the Ogier and Asha'man will work together to undo the corruption of The Ways so Rand can move his troops quickly without having to rely on Travelling. This will also allow him to insert secret troops since channelling can be detected by other channellers.
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Loial has mentioned that there are several Way Gates connecting to The Blight. I think the Ogier and Asha'man will work together to undo the corruption of The Ways so Rand can move his troops quickly without having to rely on Travelling. This will also allow him to insert secret troops since channelling can be detected by other channellers.channellers.
[[WMG: Asmodean is Moridin]]
Think about this for a moment. Asmodean is described as the least powerful of the Forsaken in the One Power. Moridin almost exclusively relies on the True Power. Moridin only really showed up after Asmodean kicked it. Cyndane (aka Lanfear) has a deep hatred for him, which could be more than just being made his servant. My theory is this: After meeting his end at the end of book 5, Asmodean is ressurected as Moridin in secret, then sent to organise the rest of the Forsaken into an organised force, rather than a squabbling bunch of ninnies by whatever means possible. It's mentioned that the Dark One has a cruel sense of humour, so why not have the one perceived as the weakest Forsaken made into the leader?
[[WMG: Asmodean is Moridin]]
Think about this for a moment. Asmodean is described as the least powerful of the Forsaken in the One Power. Moridin almost exclusively relies on the True Power. Moridin only really showed up after Asmodean kicked it. Cyndane (aka Lanfear) has a deep hatred for him, which could be more than just being made his servant. My theory is this: After meeting his end at the end of book 5, Asmodean is ressurected as Moridin in secret, then sent to organise the rest of the Forsaken into an organised force, rather than a squabbling bunch of ninnies by whatever means possible. It's mentioned that the Dark One has a cruel sense of humour, so why not have the one perceived as the weakest Forsaken made into the leader?
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** [[spoiler: To be completely accurate Word of God says that with the Choedan Kal even the strongest channeler could undo events by a couple of days at best. Brandon Sanderson went on to say that longer periods would be theoretically possible but the damage to the pattern would be so great that it would simply unravel altogether.]] Very creative thinking but thoroughly Jossed.
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* There already large numbers of Dragonsworn long before Masema got his Prophet on. They just started flocking around him because he was a direct connection to the Lord Dragon. Additionally he tended to attract a certain kind of people. The kind you wouldn't like to meet. Ever. So it's less Compulsion and more monsters being attracted by a CompleteMonster.
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* [[spoiler: Word of God gave us the maths. Even the Choedan Kal balefire nuke would only reverse time by hours at most. Asmodean died months ago. If Graendal did it, and if she died at Natrin's Barrow, it still wouldn't bring Asmodean back.]]
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** The biggest problem with this is that ''something'' that's obviously sentient and extremely powerful is talking through Shayol Ghul and controlling Shaidair Haran. The Dark One at least has a personality, although I suppose it's possible that it/he started out as a nonsentient force of chaos and destruction but acquired a personality through interacting with humans (or, like BrandonSanderson's shard gods, was a nonsentient force merged with a humanlike intelligence)...
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** The biggest problem with this is that ''something'' that's obviously sentient and extremely powerful is talking through Shayol Ghul and controlling Shaidair Haran. The Dark One at least has a personality, although I suppose it's possible that it/he started out as a nonsentient force of chaos and destruction but acquired a personality through interacting with humans (or, like BrandonSanderson's shard gods, was a nonsentient force merged with a humanlike intelligence)...intelligence)...
[[WMG: Lan Will Become King of a Re-Established Malkier]]
What no one has mentioned is once the Last Battle is fought, what is going to be done about The Blight? Will it disappear and go back to the way it was? Will the Aes Sedai and Asha'man be required to fix everything? I think in Towers of Midnight some effort will be put into pushing The Blight back far enough and it will turn out that Malkier is back. Lan will then be crowned and Malkier will be used as the staging ground for The Last Battle. Or maybe he'll be crowned afterwards.
[[WMG: The Ways Will Be Used To Move Troops To The Blight]]
Loial has mentioned that there are several Way Gates connecting to The Blight. I think the Ogier and Asha'man will work together to undo the corruption of The Ways so Rand can move his troops quickly without having to rely on Travelling. This will also allow him to insert secret troops since channelling can be detected by other channellers.
[[WMG: Lan Will Become King of a Re-Established Malkier]]
What no one has mentioned is once the Last Battle is fought, what is going to be done about The Blight? Will it disappear and go back to the way it was? Will the Aes Sedai and Asha'man be required to fix everything? I think in Towers of Midnight some effort will be put into pushing The Blight back far enough and it will turn out that Malkier is back. Lan will then be crowned and Malkier will be used as the staging ground for The Last Battle. Or maybe he'll be crowned afterwards.
[[WMG: The Ways Will Be Used To Move Troops To The Blight]]
Loial has mentioned that there are several Way Gates connecting to The Blight. I think the Ogier and Asha'man will work together to undo the corruption of The Ways so Rand can move his troops quickly without having to rely on Travelling. This will also allow him to insert secret troops since channelling can be detected by other channellers.
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Changed line(s) 258 (click to see context) from:
This troper's stepfather believes that there isn't and never was a Dark One. Rand kills several Dark One impostors, and who's to say that that doesn't stretch all the way back. His idea is that the Dark side and the Light side are non-sentient, and people simply attribute personalities to them.
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This troper's stepfather believes that there isn't and never was a Dark One. Rand kills several Dark One impostors, and who's to say that that doesn't stretch all the way back. His idea is that the Dark side and the Light side are non-sentient, and people simply attribute personalities to them.them.
** The biggest problem with this is that ''something'' that's obviously sentient and extremely powerful is talking through Shayol Ghul and controlling Shaidair Haran. The Dark One at least has a personality, although I suppose it's possible that it/he started out as a nonsentient force of chaos and destruction but acquired a personality through interacting with humans (or, like BrandonSanderson's shard gods, was a nonsentient force merged with a humanlike intelligence)...
** The biggest problem with this is that ''something'' that's obviously sentient and extremely powerful is talking through Shayol Ghul and controlling Shaidair Haran. The Dark One at least has a personality, although I suppose it's possible that it/he started out as a nonsentient force of chaos and destruction but acquired a personality through interacting with humans (or, like BrandonSanderson's shard gods, was a nonsentient force merged with a humanlike intelligence)...
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When Princess Zelda uses the Triforce. Also, if Rand really tried hard enough he'd remember how to play an Ocarina.
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When Princess Zelda uses the Triforce. Also, if Rand really tried hard enough he'd remember how to play an Ocarina.Ocarina.
[[WMG: There is No Dark One]]
This troper's stepfather believes that there isn't and never was a Dark One. Rand kills several Dark One impostors, and who's to say that that doesn't stretch all the way back. His idea is that the Dark side and the Light side are non-sentient, and people simply attribute personalities to them.
[[WMG: There is No Dark One]]
This troper's stepfather believes that there isn't and never was a Dark One. Rand kills several Dark One impostors, and who's to say that that doesn't stretch all the way back. His idea is that the Dark side and the Light side are non-sentient, and people simply attribute personalities to them.
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Changed line(s) 252 (click to see context) from:
They both hear dice in their heads, they both want nothing more than to stay out of danger. Rincewind's more blatant cowardice is a direct result of all the battles that he got into when he was known as Mat.
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They both hear dice in their heads, they both want nothing more than to stay out of danger. Rincewind's more blatant cowardice is a direct result of all the battles that he got into when he was known as Mat.Mat.
[[WMG: The Age of Legends begins]]
When Princess Zelda uses the Triforce. Also, if Rand really tried hard enough he'd remember how to play an Ocarina.
[[WMG: The Age of Legends begins]]
When Princess Zelda uses the Triforce. Also, if Rand really tried hard enough he'd remember how to play an Ocarina.
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Changed line(s) 249 (click to see context) from:
For longest book series. There are over twelve books which continue to grow in length and must be split into volumes. This ''can't'' be accidental.
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For longest book series. There are over twelve books which continue to grow in length and must be split into volumes. This ''can't'' be accidental.accidental.
[[WMG: Mat is actually a young [[{{Discworld}} Rincewind]]]]
They both hear dice in their heads, they both want nothing more than to stay out of danger. Rincewind's more blatant cowardice is a direct result of all the battles that he got into when he was known as Mat.
[[WMG: Mat is actually a young [[{{Discworld}} Rincewind]]]]
They both hear dice in their heads, they both want nothing more than to stay out of danger. Rincewind's more blatant cowardice is a direct result of all the battles that he got into when he was known as Mat.
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Changed line(s) 248 (click to see context) from:
[[WMG: The author is trying to break a world record]]
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[[WMG: The author is Robert Jordan was trying to break a world record]]
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Changed line(s) 87,88 (click to see context) from:
* We know from Terminator Salvation that there are humans who don’t believe the Resistance can defeat Skynet. A group of these people conspire to go back in time in order to escape the machines. They succeed, but mess up the space-time coordinates and end up on the planet that eventually becomes Coruscant.
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* We know from Terminator Salvation that there are humans who don’t believe the Resistance can defeat Skynet. A group of these people conspire to go back in time in order to escape the machines. They succeed, but mess up the space-time coordinates and end up on the planet that eventually becomes Coruscant.
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* During the Butlerian Jihad, some humans flee the galaxy and end up on a planet called Kobol. It’s Thirteen Lords are the last Spacing Guild Navigators.
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* During the Butlerian Jihad, some humans flee the galaxy and end up on a planet called Kobol. It’s Thirteen Lords are the last Spacing Guild Navigators.
Changed line(s) 246 (click to see context) from:
So either Rand only loves Min truly, or he only cares for them slightly, but not in a way where he can say he loves them and means it.
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So either Rand only loves Min truly, or he only cares for them slightly, but not in a way where he can say he loves them and means it.it.
[[WMG: The author is trying to break a world record]]
For longest book series. There are over twelve books which continue to grow in length and must be split into volumes. This ''can't'' be accidental.
[[WMG: The author is trying to break a world record]]
For longest book series. There are over twelve books which continue to grow in length and must be split into volumes. This ''can't'' be accidental.
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Changed line(s) 87,88 (click to see context) from:
* We know from Terminator Salvation that there are humans who don’t believe the Resistance can defeat Skynet. A group of these people conspire to go back in time in order to escape the machines. They succeed, but mess up the space-time coordinates and end up on the planet that eventually becomes Coruscant.
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* We know from Terminator Salvation that there are humans who don’t believe the Resistance can defeat Skynet. A group of these people conspire to go back in time in order to escape the machines. They succeed, but mess up the space-time coordinates and end up on the planet that eventually becomes Coruscant.
Changed line(s) 100,101 (click to see context) from:
* During the Butlerian Jihad, some humans flee the galaxy and end up on a planet called Kobol. It’s Thirteen Lords are the last Spacing Guild Navigators.
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* During the Butlerian Jihad, some humans flee the galaxy and end up on a planet called Kobol. It’s Thirteen Lords are the last Spacing Guild Navigators.
Changed line(s) 192,193 (click to see context) from:
* There are certainly a lot of similarities there, yeah. Though channelers in general strike me as being more like the Dragon-blooded (though I'd imagine the Aes Sedai [[{{Understatement}} wouldn't like being called that]]), what with it being an inherited thing based around ElementalPowers. Presumably the Aelfinn & Eelfinn are [[TheFairFolk Raksha]] of some sort - the AlienGeometries in their dimension wouldn't be too unusual in the Wyld.
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* There are certainly a lot of similarities there, yeah. Though channelers in general strike me as being more like the Dragon-blooded (though I'd imagine the Aes Sedai [[{{Understatement}} wouldn't like being called that]]), what with it being an inherited thing based around ElementalPowers. Presumably the Aelfinn & Eelfinn are [[TheFairFolk Raksha]] of some sort - the AlienGeometries in their dimension wouldn't be too unusual in the Wyld.
Wyld. And maybe the Dark One is what you get if [[CompleteMonster the Ebon Dragon]] dies and becomes a [[OmnicidalManiac Neverborn]].
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Changed line(s) 87,88 (click to see context) from:
*We know from Terminator Salvation that there are humans who don’t believe the Resistance can defeat Skynet. A group of these people conspire to go back in time in order to escape the machines. They succeed, but mess up the space-time coordinates and end up on the planet that eventually becomes Coruscant.
to:
*We know from Terminator Salvation that there are humans who don’t believe the Resistance can defeat Skynet. A group of these people conspire to go back in time in order to escape the machines. They succeed, but mess up the space-time coordinates and end up on the planet that eventually becomes Coruscant.
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*During the Butlerian Jihad, some humans flee the galaxy and end up on a planet called Kobol. It’s Thirteen Lords are the last Spacing Guild Navigators.
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*During the Butlerian Jihad, some humans flee the galaxy and end up on a planet called Kobol. It’s Thirteen Lords are the last Spacing Guild Navigators.
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It's understandable why the Dark One might want to keep Ishmael/Moridin around, but why would he waste energy bringing back Aginor, who managed to do exactly nothing before he was killed, not to mention Lanfear, who actively betrayed the him? In addition, Rand learned about the resurrections and how to stop them from Moridin. Why would Moridin give away that secret and negate such an important advantage of the Dark One--unless the Dark One actually wants Rand to Balefire his servants.
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It's understandable why the Dark One might want to keep Ishmael/Moridin around, but why would he waste energy bringing back Aginor, who managed to do exactly nothing before he was killed, not to mention Lanfear, who actively betrayed the him? In addition, Rand learned about the resurrections and how to stop them from Moridin. Why would Moridin give away that secret and negate such an important advantage of the Dark One--unless the Dark One actually wants Rand to Balefire his servants.servants.
[[WMG: Rand will renegotiate a treaty with Fortuon, possibly giving the Seanchan Illian.]]
At the end of The Gathering Storm, Rand notes how the people under the Seanchan rule seem much happier than his own, realising that even though they're conquering his home continent and enslaving men and women, forcing women who can channel to become weapons, they can bring some prosperity and peace, which he can't due to him having barely any clue as to running a nation and working with nobles who are out for themselves. Most likely in The Towers of Midnight we will see Rand giving up the crown of Illian, while requesting that his appointed steward (Can't remember the name) be left in charge.
[[WMG: Rand loves none of his harem, or possibly only loves Min.]]
Let's take a look at the circumstances in which he entered his relationships.
* Elayne: Egwene had just dumped him, he was starting to realise the pressure of being the Dragon Reborn and here he had a girl confess her love for him. She was possibly a rebound and a way of coping with stress. Also, he had his first kiss with her, which his home town considers to be off limits unless you're engaged so through his eyes, he lost his virginity to her.
* Aveindha: Elayne sends Rand two contradicting letters, confusing him about her feelings. He then travels with a group of strangers and his friends are ignoring him because they're busy or, in Mat's case, afraid of him. Then there's this pretty girl who is constantly around him and the two converse about their own traditions and laws. They share a tent and she casually gets undressed in front of him without a thought. They then sleep together, so he loses his actual virginity to her. Plus, when he lead the attack on Caemlyn, she died and he only narrowly brought her back. Again, lust confusion with love and possibly some guilt.
* Min: Aveindha has just left, but because Rand sent her away so it's on better terms. Rand is starting to hear Lews Therin, the stresses of running three kingdoms, setting up the black tower and preparing to invade Illian are getting to him. Along comes Min and he uses her to cope with stress the same way he did with Elayne.
Okay, now you may be thinking "but what about the bond? All three know he loves them." True, but at that time Rand was trying his best to harden his heart, so any form of slight affection for another human being could be seen as burning passionate love in a cold heart. Also, when does Rand once try to drop in on Elayne and Aveindha, even though he can travel anywhere in an instant and disguise himself so that no one will be able to recognise him? Out of the three of them, Min is the only one he keeps nearby. Also, when Aveindha is in the same camp site as him, he doesn't try to go see her.
So either Rand only loves Min truly, or he only cares for them slightly, but not in a way where he can say he loves them and means it.
[[WMG: Rand will renegotiate a treaty with Fortuon, possibly giving the Seanchan Illian.]]
At the end of The Gathering Storm, Rand notes how the people under the Seanchan rule seem much happier than his own, realising that even though they're conquering his home continent and enslaving men and women, forcing women who can channel to become weapons, they can bring some prosperity and peace, which he can't due to him having barely any clue as to running a nation and working with nobles who are out for themselves. Most likely in The Towers of Midnight we will see Rand giving up the crown of Illian, while requesting that his appointed steward (Can't remember the name) be left in charge.
[[WMG: Rand loves none of his harem, or possibly only loves Min.]]
Let's take a look at the circumstances in which he entered his relationships.
* Elayne: Egwene had just dumped him, he was starting to realise the pressure of being the Dragon Reborn and here he had a girl confess her love for him. She was possibly a rebound and a way of coping with stress. Also, he had his first kiss with her, which his home town considers to be off limits unless you're engaged so through his eyes, he lost his virginity to her.
* Aveindha: Elayne sends Rand two contradicting letters, confusing him about her feelings. He then travels with a group of strangers and his friends are ignoring him because they're busy or, in Mat's case, afraid of him. Then there's this pretty girl who is constantly around him and the two converse about their own traditions and laws. They share a tent and she casually gets undressed in front of him without a thought. They then sleep together, so he loses his actual virginity to her. Plus, when he lead the attack on Caemlyn, she died and he only narrowly brought her back. Again, lust confusion with love and possibly some guilt.
* Min: Aveindha has just left, but because Rand sent her away so it's on better terms. Rand is starting to hear Lews Therin, the stresses of running three kingdoms, setting up the black tower and preparing to invade Illian are getting to him. Along comes Min and he uses her to cope with stress the same way he did with Elayne.
Okay, now you may be thinking "but what about the bond? All three know he loves them." True, but at that time Rand was trying his best to harden his heart, so any form of slight affection for another human being could be seen as burning passionate love in a cold heart. Also, when does Rand once try to drop in on Elayne and Aveindha, even though he can travel anywhere in an instant and disguise himself so that no one will be able to recognise him? Out of the three of them, Min is the only one he keeps nearby. Also, when Aveindha is in the same camp site as him, he doesn't try to go see her.
So either Rand only loves Min truly, or he only cares for them slightly, but not in a way where he can say he loves them and means it.
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Changed line(s) 192,193 (click to see context) from:
* There are certainly a lot of similarities there, yeah. Though channelers in general strike me as being more like the Dragon-blooded (though I'd imagine the Aes Sedai [[{{Understatement}} wouldn't like being called that]]), what with it being an inherited thing based around ElementalPowers.
to:
* There are certainly a lot of similarities there, yeah. Though channelers in general strike me as being more like the Dragon-blooded (though I'd imagine the Aes Sedai [[{{Understatement}} wouldn't like being called that]]), what with it being an inherited thing based around ElementalPowers.
ElementalPowers. Presumably the Aelfinn & Eelfinn are [[TheFairFolk Raksha]] of some sort - the AlienGeometries in their dimension wouldn't be too unusual in the Wyld.
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Changed line(s) 87,88 (click to see context) from:
*We know from Terminator Salvation that there are humans who don’t believe the Resistance can defeat Skynet. A group of these people conspire to go back in time in order to escape the machines. They succeed, but mess up the space-time coordinates and end up on the planet that eventually becomes Coruscant.
to:
*We know from Terminator Salvation that there are humans who don’t believe the Resistance can defeat Skynet. A group of these people conspire to go back in time in order to escape the machines. They succeed, but mess up the space-time coordinates and end up on the planet that eventually becomes Coruscant.
Changed line(s) 100,101 (click to see context) from:
*During the Butlerian Jihad, some humans flee the galaxy and end up on a planet called Kobol. It’s Thirteen Lords are the last Spacing Guild Navigators.
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*During the Butlerian Jihad, some humans flee the galaxy and end up on a planet called Kobol. It’s Thirteen Lords are the last Spacing Guild Navigators.
Changed line(s) 192 (click to see context) from:
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* There are certainly a lot of similarities there, yeah. Though channelers in general strike me as being more like the Dragon-blooded (though I'd imagine the Aes Sedai [[{{Understatement}} wouldn't like being called that]]), what with it being an inherited thing based around ElementalPowers.
