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One can look over the Midnight Crew and reasonably presume that they're an EvilCounterpart to [[ProblemSleuth Team Sleuth]], with Space Slick as Problem Sleuth's, Clubs Deuce as Ace Dick's, and Diamonds Droog as Pickle Inspector's. This leaves Hearts Boxcars as the odd man out, and so I submit that he is, in fact, Mobster Kingpin's EvilCounterpart. Though the play as much as counterparts as the do opposites...
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One can look over the Midnight Crew and reasonably presume that they're an EvilCounterpart to [[ProblemSleuth [[Webcomic/ProblemSleuth Team Sleuth]], with Space Slick as Problem Sleuth's, Clubs Deuce as Ace Dick's, and Diamonds Droog as Pickle Inspector's. This leaves Hearts Boxcars as the odd man out, and so I submit that he is, in fact, Mobster Kingpin's EvilCounterpart. Though the play as much as counterparts as the do opposites...
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* HB gets ordered around by SS and DD; MK takes orders from nobody, and is ProblemSleuth's main antagonist.
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* HB gets ordered around by SS and DD; MK takes orders from nobody, and is ProblemSleuth's ''Webcomic/ProblemSleuth'''s main antagonist.
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* He is ProblemSleuth.
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* He is ProblemSleuth.Webcomic/ProblemSleuth.
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[[WMG: uu's name is that of a figure from GreekMythology he relates to somehow, and his class is whatever that figure was.]]
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[[WMG: uu's name is that of a figure from GreekMythology Myth/GreekMythology he relates to somehow, and his class is whatever that figure was.]]
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* This could also be a rather subtle ShoutOut to SeedOfChucky, which stars a gender confused puppet.
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* This could also be a rather subtle ShoutOut to SeedOfChucky, Film/SeedOfChucky, which stars a gender confused puppet.
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If you turn your head and squint it kind of makes sense.
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[[WMG: Hussie and FedoraFreak, and possibly a few others (the Music/Art Team?), are part of their own session.]]
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[[WMG: God-Tier Calliope will be the one who brings everyone who died in [S]: Game Over back to life.]]
Calliope will be extremely powerful in her God-Tier form, so bringing everyone back from the dead doesn't sound like much of a stretch. Perhaps English Muse's powers are "Creation" to counterbalance Lord English's "Destruction"?
Calliope will be extremely powerful in her God-Tier form, so bringing everyone back from the dead doesn't sound like much of a stretch. Perhaps English Muse's powers are "Creation" to counterbalance Lord English's "Destruction"?
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* Problem: Calliope still has the black eyes in A6A6I2, by which point [[http://www.mspaintadventures.com/ACT6ACT6.php?s=6&p=008145 Caliborn is confirmed to be God Tier]] and thus the cherubs' original shared body is unambiguously dead.
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[[WMG: Calliope's dead self's weird eyes are because the Lord English body is still alive.]]
While her dreamself is dead and she lost the domination battle (hence why she is in the dreambubble vortex thing in the first place), her original shared body is still alive (although not hers by any stretch of the word), so she can't get the dead eyes effect and dreambubbles are not exactly leaving the normal eyes effect to those who know they're dead, so she gets...different eyes. Callie Ohpeee the trollsona (who is probably closer to the dreamself, which is unambiguously dead, by being an idealized self) has normal eyes since the still-living Caliborn/LE never wore that form/body/whatever and isn't going to cosplay it any time soon. Since cherubs aren't meant to play Sburb by their own admission, this hasn't needed to come up elsewhere because they normally don't live on in dreambubbles when killed.
While her dreamself is dead and she lost the domination battle (hence why she is in the dreambubble vortex thing in the first place), her original shared body is still alive (although not hers by any stretch of the word), so she can't get the dead eyes effect and dreambubbles are not exactly leaving the normal eyes effect to those who know they're dead, so she gets...different eyes. Callie Ohpeee the trollsona (who is probably closer to the dreamself, which is unambiguously dead, by being an idealized self) has normal eyes since the still-living Caliborn/LE never wore that form/body/whatever and isn't going to cosplay it any time soon. Since cherubs aren't meant to play Sburb by their own admission, this hasn't needed to come up elsewhere because they normally don't live on in dreambubbles when killed.
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[[WMG: Calliope was right.]]
Cherub co-dominance is possible, just obscenely rare and likely impossible with Caliborn/Calliope (even with Calliope arguably trying) or any other pair because they're complete opposites (Space and Time go well together, but the most passive Muse class and the most active Lord class don't) or outside influence messes things up (Jack Noir of the cherub session killing Calliope's dream self, forcing Caliborn into an abnormal dominance to become Lord English later).
* Ideal cherubs, the ones that look like Trickster Mode, ARE shared dominance, or were just able to work together or against each other enough to combine their jujus and use that to enter Trickster Mode.
Cherub co-dominance is possible, just obscenely rare and likely impossible with Caliborn/Calliope (even with Calliope arguably trying) or any other pair because they're complete opposites (Space and Time go well together, but the most passive Muse class and the most active Lord class don't) or outside influence messes things up (Jack Noir of the cherub session killing Calliope's dream self, forcing Caliborn into an abnormal dominance to become Lord English later).
* Ideal cherubs, the ones that look like Trickster Mode, ARE shared dominance, or were just able to work together or against each other enough to combine their jujus and use that to enter Trickster Mode.
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[[WMG: Snowman will be revived]]
She's the only Felt member who isn't brought back by Spades Slick in Act 6 and it's explicitly shown that it's within Slick's power to revive her (all he has to do is pull her pin out of Die's doll). Perhaps during the finale Slick will be forced to restore her like he did them. Not to mention it's possible this would restore the Troll's universe with it since it's existence depends on Snowman being alive...
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just saying
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* Considering this would imply all the updates since ''at least'' a few months ago are doomed timeline shit (and that's a '''hell''' of a lot of doomed timeline shit), along with the strangeness of a Lord of Time having doomed timeline issues and the unlikelihood of Gamzee deliberately making a timeline where English would not exist, at best it's more likely that LE is the doomed Caliborn and had unseen reasons for dooming his own timeline.
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[[WMG: Caliborn will ''not'' become Lord English.]]
Or rather, ''this'' one won't. We're not seeing the timeline where Caliborn becomes LE and sets all the other events in motion. We're observing a doomed timeline in which events turn out a bit different. And more likely than not, Gamzee's the point of divergence.
Or rather, ''this'' one won't. We're not seeing the timeline where Caliborn becomes LE and sets all the other events in motion. We're observing a doomed timeline in which events turn out a bit different. And more likely than not, Gamzee's the point of divergence.
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[[WMG: Calliope will initiate Gamzee's [[HeelFaceTurn redemption]].]]
When/if she returns, she'll do something that triggers a positive change in him somehow. In an extreme case, "English Muse" will arrive and Gamzee will defect to her side, just 'cuz he likes her better.
When/if she returns, she'll do something that triggers a positive change in him somehow. In an extreme case, "English Muse" will arrive and Gamzee will defect to her side, just 'cuz he likes her better.
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* Specifically, he's the Heir of Space, as we have seen.
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* So wait ... since Lord English is in fact Caliborn, and his good counterpart is Calliope ... does that mean [[FridgeLogic Andrew Hussie is Calliope?]]
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*Specifically, he's the Heir of Space, as we have seen.
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* {{Tropers/MortTheGhost I}} support this wholeheartedly. I also believe Calliope will get a Cairo Evening Gown. '''And it will be GLORIOUS.'''
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* {{Tropers/MortTheGhost I}} [[Tropers/MortTheGhost I]] support this wholeheartedly. I also believe Calliope will get a Cairo Evening Gown. '''And it will be GLORIOUS.'''
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...because someone will have swapped the mattress of her bed in the Prospit tower with her quest bed, [[HoistedByHisOwnPretard just like how Caliborn swapped the chess pieces.]]
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...because someone will have swapped the mattress of her bed in the Prospit tower with her quest bed, [[HoistedByHisOwnPretard [[HoistedByHisOwnPetard just like how Caliborn swapped the chess pieces.]]
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*{{Tropers/MortTheGhost I}} support this wholeheartedly. I also believe Calliope will get a Cairo Evening Gown. '''And it will be GLORIOUS.'''
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Think about it: Jack Noir didn't actually act all that unusual given his circumstances. He's shown to be pragmatic and stab-happy in ''every'' session and to particularly dislike the Black Queen; he was handed a super-weapon (two, technically) and used it exactly the way one would expect. WV, on the other hand, is unusual for a Carapacian- he organized a rebellion against his own King, which likely is a unique facet of his session. While it ultimately failed, he also ended up as John's Exile (guiding his actions in the early session and ultimately awakening him as an Heir), was the one to free Serenity[[spoiler:/Calliope]], and is probably the main motivator for PM's rampage. He'll remain enough of a pivotal character in the future that Rose foresaw his arrival in the "path of greatest fortune" and even delayed the Trolls' departure to collect him. Karkat's mutation wasn't "cancerous", it was just overshadowed by Paradox Space screwing the session to ensure the Scratch.
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Think about it: Jack Noir didn't actually act all that unusual given his circumstances. He's shown to be pragmatic and stab-happy in ''every'' session and to particularly dislike the Black Queen; he was handed a super-weapon (two, technically) and used it exactly the way one would expect. WV, on the other hand, is unusual for a Carapacian- he organized a rebellion against his own King, which likely is a unique facet of his session. While it ultimately failed, he also ended up as John's Exile (guiding his actions in the early session and ultimately awakening him as an Heir), was the one to free Serenity[[spoiler:/Calliope]], Serenity/Calliope, and is probably the main motivator for PM's rampage. He'll remain enough of a pivotal character in the future that Rose foresaw his arrival in the "path of greatest fortune" and even delayed the Trolls' departure to collect him. Karkat's mutation wasn't "cancerous", it was just overshadowed by Paradox Space screwing the session to ensure the Scratch.
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[[WMG: Squiddles are more than just a "subconscious reimagining" of the horrorterrors.]]
By which I mean, the horrorterrors, in principle, are just like the squiddles; they really ''are'' adorable, fun-loving little squids. They really are sweet, innocent, precious, and vulnerable creatures. Humans are not inclined to think of them that way because of their terrifying physical incomprehensibility, the harsh tones of their language, their tendency to spread insanity, doom, and babbling incoherence in their wake, their strange opposition to the prospect of new universes being created, and generally the vastness of their innate obscenity in every regard; however, these are things they cannot control, and do not reflect their naturally sweet and bubbly dispositions. They are probably ashamed of their inability to present themselves in a less basally maddening manner, and would probably normally keep their distance from other life forms so as to preserve those life forms' sanity, but they are reaching out without considering the potential consequences because they are scared. And they have reason to be scared: Lord English, or "Skipper Plumbthroat" as they would know him, is out to get them, and they sit stranded and helpless throughout the depths of the Furthest Ring. Maybe this is why they also oppose the creation of new universes: ordinarily they'd be okay with it and even happy for the future inhabitants of the universes, but now that they've seen some serious stuff go down, they realize that more universes means more incarnations of Skipper Plumbthroat, which means more lost friends, more poor little innocent Squiddles shedding their precious non-Euclidean Squiddle blood, more tangle buddy bonds shattered.
By which I mean, the horrorterrors, in principle, are just like the squiddles; they really ''are'' adorable, fun-loving little squids. They really are sweet, innocent, precious, and vulnerable creatures. Humans are not inclined to think of them that way because of their terrifying physical incomprehensibility, the harsh tones of their language, their tendency to spread insanity, doom, and babbling incoherence in their wake, their strange opposition to the prospect of new universes being created, and generally the vastness of their innate obscenity in every regard; however, these are things they cannot control, and do not reflect their naturally sweet and bubbly dispositions. They are probably ashamed of their inability to present themselves in a less basally maddening manner, and would probably normally keep their distance from other life forms so as to preserve those life forms' sanity, but they are reaching out without considering the potential consequences because they are scared. And they have reason to be scared: Lord English, or "Skipper Plumbthroat" as they would know him, is out to get them, and they sit stranded and helpless throughout the depths of the Furthest Ring. Maybe this is why they also oppose the creation of new universes: ordinarily they'd be okay with it and even happy for the future inhabitants of the universes, but now that they've seen some serious stuff go down, they realize that more universes means more incarnations of Skipper Plumbthroat, which means more lost friends, more poor little innocent Squiddles shedding their precious non-Euclidean Squiddle blood, more tangle buddy bonds shattered.
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Becquerel is the Lord of Space. Doc Scratch is the Lord of Light. I don't know about GCat. Also Lord English is perhaps unknowingly a First Guardian; what separates him from the rest and makes him destined to be a really terrible powerful demon who fucks up everything is that he, unlike the other First Guardians, is created in a universe that is already deceased; while Becquerel is the First Guardian of pre-scratch Earth, and GCat the First Guardian of ''post''-scratch Earth, Lord English, having grown up during the end of times, is the First Guardian of post-''apocalypse'' Earth, the Earth that lies in a universe that officially does not exist; in other words, Lord English is the First Guardian of ''nowhere.''
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Becquerel is the Lord of Space. Doc Scratch is the Lord of Light. I don't know about GCat. G-Cat. Also Lord English is perhaps unknowingly a First Guardian; what separates him from the rest and makes him destined to be a really terrible powerful demon who fucks up everything is that he, unlike the other First Guardians, is created in a universe that is already deceased; while Becquerel is the First Guardian of pre-scratch Earth, and GCat G-Cat the First Guardian of ''post''-scratch Earth, Lord English, having grown up during the end of times, is the First Guardian of post-''apocalypse'' Earth, the Earth that lies in a universe that officially does not exist; in other words, Lord English is the First Guardian of ''nowhere.''
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[[WMG: The First Guardians somehow have god tier titles with master classes.]]
Becquerel is the Lord of Space. Doc Scratch is the Lord of Light. I don't know about GCat. Also Lord English is perhaps unknowingly a First Guardian; what separates him from the rest and makes him destined to be a really terrible powerful demon who fucks up everything is that he, unlike the other First Guardians, is created in a universe that is already deceased; while Becquerel is the First Guardian of pre-scratch Earth, and GCat the First Guardian of ''post''-scratch Earth, Lord English, having grown up during the end of times, is the First Guardian of post-''apocalypse'' Earth, the Earth that lies in a universe that officially does not exist; in other words, Lord English is the First Guardian of ''nowhere.''
I am now positing that paradox space, like the sessions it holds within, may exist in multiple iterations. During the iteration we are witnessing, it so happens that the First Guardian of nowhere is the Lord of Time. Perhaps in other iterations, this First Guardian has been the Lord of something else, and that other thing has consequently been the primary and most important aspect that has largely governed the evolution of that iteration of paradox space and the story it had to tell.
Becquerel is the Lord of Space. Doc Scratch is the Lord of Light. I don't know about GCat. Also Lord English is perhaps unknowingly a First Guardian; what separates him from the rest and makes him destined to be a really terrible powerful demon who fucks up everything is that he, unlike the other First Guardians, is created in a universe that is already deceased; while Becquerel is the First Guardian of pre-scratch Earth, and GCat the First Guardian of ''post''-scratch Earth, Lord English, having grown up during the end of times, is the First Guardian of post-''apocalypse'' Earth, the Earth that lies in a universe that officially does not exist; in other words, Lord English is the First Guardian of ''nowhere.''
I am now positing that paradox space, like the sessions it holds within, may exist in multiple iterations. During the iteration we are witnessing, it so happens that the First Guardian of nowhere is the Lord of Time. Perhaps in other iterations, this First Guardian has been the Lord of something else, and that other thing has consequently been the primary and most important aspect that has largely governed the evolution of that iteration of paradox space and the story it had to tell.
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[[WMG: Deep down, Caliborn just wants to have friends.]]
Lord English's SoulJar, Lil Cal, despite being a CreepyDoll, is described by many as a friend. Dirk views him as a parental figure, Hussie can't stay mad at him at one point, even Bec Noir claims that Lil Cal is a true friend. The only one he has ever known. Maybe Caliborn wants to have some friends, and Lil Cal shows this by other people's reactions to him.
Why he's an OmnicidalManiac who destroys universes does not currently fit in with this theory.
Lord English's SoulJar, Lil Cal, despite being a CreepyDoll, is described by many as a friend. Dirk views him as a parental figure, Hussie can't stay mad at him at one point, even Bec Noir claims that Lil Cal is a true friend. The only one he has ever known. Maybe Caliborn wants to have some friends, and Lil Cal shows this by other people's reactions to him.
Why he's an OmnicidalManiac who destroys universes does not currently fit in with this theory.
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[[WMG: Hussie is a winner from a previous session]]
Let's think about this. He already looks noticably different from everyone else, due to his orange skin; this would imply that he's not human. As the author, he can manipulate the world as he wishes, just like a god. Hell, he can even render [[PhysicalGod Doc Scratch]] inanimate just by being near him. My theory is that he is from a universe that existed before he Trolls'. He was the only member of his session who managed to survive the game, which would explain why he is the only one like him that has been observed.
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* Another bit of supporting evidence for this: Aradia describes Jack, when he enters the Troll's session, as "0mnip0tent and enraged". Before he left the kid's session, he seemed vicious and destructive, but not ''enraged''; this implies that he flew into a rage after the events of Cascade.
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* Another bit of supporting evidence for this: Aradia describes Jack, when he enters the Troll's session, as "0mnip0tent and enraged". Before he left the kid's session, he seemed vicious and destructive, but not ''enraged''; this implies that he flew into a rage after the events of Cascade.
Cascade. He was also present when Karkat confessed to giving Jade's universe cancer, so it's possible his rage at the trolls was actually a RageAgainstTheHeavens at them for screwing up Jade's universe (and, by extension, the session he lived in.)
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* Another bit of supporting evidence for this: Aradia describes Jack, when he enters the Troll's session, as "0mnip0tent and enraged". Before he left the kid's session, he seemed vicious and destructive, but not ''enraged''; this implies that he flew into a rage after the events of Cascade.
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[[WMG: Bec Noir attacked the troll's universe in order to avenge Jade.]]
Up until Jade's 'death' shortly before Cascade, Bec Noir was mostly acting without direction -- he was killing people at random, not with any sort of direction to it. After Jade dies, he places her on her Quest Bed (possibly without fully knowing what that means), then makes an immediate beeline for the teleporter to the Troll's universe, only killing people who get in his way. When he's there, he prevents the Trolls from claiming godhood, then systematically blows up every one of their worlds and murders each of their dream selves with a directed anger very much unlike anything we saw before; then he proceeds to hunt them relentlessly and specifically rather than engaging his previous random murderous hijinx. With his near-omniscience, he would likely know that the Trolls were responsible for making Jade's world terminal, for his creation and empowerment, and therefore ultimately for Jade's death; this would explain why he focuses so monomanically on wrecking up their shit after that point. (At least up until he meets the ascended PM, who occupies his attention after that.)
Up until Jade's 'death' shortly before Cascade, Bec Noir was mostly acting without direction -- he was killing people at random, not with any sort of direction to it. After Jade dies, he places her on her Quest Bed (possibly without fully knowing what that means), then makes an immediate beeline for the teleporter to the Troll's universe, only killing people who get in his way. When he's there, he prevents the Trolls from claiming godhood, then systematically blows up every one of their worlds and murders each of their dream selves with a directed anger very much unlike anything we saw before; then he proceeds to hunt them relentlessly and specifically rather than engaging his previous random murderous hijinx. With his near-omniscience, he would likely know that the Trolls were responsible for making Jade's world terminal, for his creation and empowerment, and therefore ultimately for Jade's death; this would explain why he focuses so monomanically on wrecking up their shit after that point. (At least up until he meets the ascended PM, who occupies his attention after that.)
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[[WMG: Jack Noir / Bec Noir attacked the troll's trolls' universe in order to avenge Jade.]]
Up until Jade's 'death' shortly before Cascade, Bec Noir was mostly acting without direction -- he was killing people atrandom, random because he found it amusing, not with any sort of direction to it. After Jade dies, he places her on her Quest Bed (possibly without fully knowing what that means), then makes an immediate beeline for the teleporter to the Troll's universe, only killing people who get in his way. When he's there, he prevents the Trolls from claiming godhood, then systematically blows up every one of their worlds and murders each of their dream selves with a directed anger very much unlike anything we saw before; then he proceeds to hunt them relentlessly and specifically rather than engaging his previous random murderous hijinx. With his near-omniscience, he would likely know that the Trolls were responsible for making Jade's world terminal, for his creation and empowerment, and therefore ultimately for Jade's death; this would explain why he focuses so monomanically on wrecking up their shit after that point. (At least up until he meets the ascended PM, who occupies his attention after that.)
Up until Jade's 'death' shortly before Cascade, Bec Noir was mostly acting without direction -- he was killing people at
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[[WMG: Bec Noir attacked the troll's universe in order to avenge Jade.]]
Up until Jade's 'death' shortly before Cascade, Bec Noir was mostly acting without direction -- he was killing people at random, not with any sort of direction to it. After Jade dies, he places her on her Quest Bed (possibly without fully knowing what that means), then makes an immediate beeline for the teleporter to the Troll's universe, only killing people who get in his way. When he's there, he prevents the Trolls from claiming godhood, then systematically blows up every one of their worlds and murders each of their dream selves with a directed anger very much unlike anything we saw before; then he proceeds to hunt them relentlessly and specifically rather than engaging his previous random murderous hijinx. With his near-omniscience, he would likely know that the Trolls were responsible for making Jade's world terminal, for his creation and empowerment, and therefore ultimately for Jade's death; this would explain why he focuses so monomanically on wrecking up their shit after that point. (At least up until he meets the ascended PM, who occupies his attention after that.)
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** But that's impossible; his adult form is, of course, [[ArcWords already here.]]
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**But that's impossible; his adult form is, of course, [[ArcWords already here.]]
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Think about it: Jack Noir didn't actually act all that unusual given his circumstances. He's shown to be pragmatic and stab-happy in ''every'' session and to particularly dislike the Black Queen; he was handed a super-weapon (two, technically) and used it exactly the way one would expect. WV, on the other hand, is unusual for a Carapacian- he organized a rebellion against his own King, which likely is a unique facet of his session. While it ultimately failed, he also ended up as John's Exile (guiding his actions in the early session and ultimately awakening him as an Heir), was the one to free Calliope, and is probably the main motivator for PM's rampage. He'll remain enough of a pivotal character in the future that Rose foresaw his arrival in the "path of greatest fortune" and even delayed the Trolls' departure to collect him. Karkat's mutation wasn't "cancerous", it was just overshadowed by Paradox Space screwing the session to ensure the Scratch.
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Think about it: Jack Noir didn't actually act all that unusual given his circumstances. He's shown to be pragmatic and stab-happy in ''every'' session and to particularly dislike the Black Queen; he was handed a super-weapon (two, technically) and used it exactly the way one would expect. WV, on the other hand, is unusual for a Carapacian- he organized a rebellion against his own King, which likely is a unique facet of his session. While it ultimately failed, he also ended up as John's Exile (guiding his actions in the early session and ultimately awakening him as an Heir), was the one to free Calliope, Serenity[[spoiler:/Calliope]], and is probably the main motivator for PM's rampage. He'll remain enough of a pivotal character in the future that Rose foresaw his arrival in the "path of greatest fortune" and even delayed the Trolls' departure to collect him. Karkat's mutation wasn't "cancerous", it was just overshadowed by Paradox Space screwing the session to ensure the Scratch.
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[[WMG: Jack Noir wasn't the mutation Karkat created - WV was.]]
Think about it: Jack Noir didn't actually act all that unusual given his circumstances. He's shown to be pragmatic and stab-happy in ''every'' session and to particularly dislike the Black Queen; he was handed a super-weapon (two, technically) and used it exactly the way one would expect. WV, on the other hand, is unusual for a Carapacian- he organized a rebellion against his own King, which likely is a unique facet of his session. While it ultimately failed, he also ended up as John's Exile (guiding his actions in the early session and ultimately awakening him as an Heir), was the one to free Calliope, and is probably the main motivator for PM's rampage. He'll remain enough of a pivotal character in the future that Rose foresaw his arrival in the "path of greatest fortune" and even delayed the Trolls' departure to collect him. Karkat's mutation wasn't "cancerous", it was just overshadowed by Paradox Space screwing the session to ensure the Scratch.
Think about it: Jack Noir didn't actually act all that unusual given his circumstances. He's shown to be pragmatic and stab-happy in ''every'' session and to particularly dislike the Black Queen; he was handed a super-weapon (two, technically) and used it exactly the way one would expect. WV, on the other hand, is unusual for a Carapacian- he organized a rebellion against his own King, which likely is a unique facet of his session. While it ultimately failed, he also ended up as John's Exile (guiding his actions in the early session and ultimately awakening him as an Heir), was the one to free Calliope, and is probably the main motivator for PM's rampage. He'll remain enough of a pivotal character in the future that Rose foresaw his arrival in the "path of greatest fortune" and even delayed the Trolls' departure to collect him. Karkat's mutation wasn't "cancerous", it was just overshadowed by Paradox Space screwing the session to ensure the Scratch.
