History WMG / FateApocrypha

But why didn't we meet them in ''LightNovel/FateZero'' and ''VisualNovel/FateStayNight''? Because they pissed off Gilgamesh: the Fourth's Ruler declared that Gilgamesh, having ruled Earth right before TheGreatFlood, was evil, and pestered him until Gil had enough and killed him, while the Fifth's Ruler discovered what was under Fuyuki's Church and was killed by Gil when he confronted Kirei about it.

It's perhaps best shown with their relationship to their respective Sabers: Whereas Kiritsugu specifically summoned Artoria with the best possible catalyst, their relationship could be described as "professional" at best with them constantly butting heads over their ideologies, and it ended with Artoria believing Kiritsugu betrayed her by denying her wish; Kairi summoned Mordred with a general catalyst for the Knights of the Round Table, and despite occasionally butting heads they worked extremely well together like a father and child, and despite dying at the end unable to achieve her wish, Mordred didn't blame Kairi in the slightest and died smiling with him sharing that last smoke. I cant help but imagine that we may get a 5th holy grail war in that timeline with someone acting as a foil to Shirou and his relationship with Mordred being a foil to Shirou's relationship with Artoria.

[[WMG:There will be a fifth holy grail war that will include a foil to Shirou]]

It's perhaps best shown with their relationship to their respective Sabers: Whereas Kiritsugu specifically summoned Artoria with the best possible catalyst, their relationship could be described as "professional" at best with them constantly butting heads over their ideologies, and it ended with Artoria believing Kiritsugu betrayed her by denying her wish; Kairi summoned Mordred with a general catalyst for the Knights of the Round Table, and despite occasionally butting heads they worked extremely well together like a father and child, and despite dying at the end unable to achieve her wish, Mordred didn't blame Kairi in the slightest and died smiling with him sharing that last smoke. I cant help but imagine that we may get a 5th holy grail war in that timeline with someone acting as a foil to shirou and his relationship with mordred being a foil to shirous relationship with artoria

and I believe that while shirou is a faker the foil will be an actual blacksmithing magus who creates weapons and be a trained swordsman. and has managed to create a dimensional vault that acts similar to gate of babylon to store weapons though unlike the gate of babylon he cant fire the weapons as projectiles. and this foil like shirou will be a master who will be able to go up against heroic spirits and will be able to fight against a top class heroic spirit but unlike shirou who was able to go against him due to a specific ability this guy will be able to go against the top class servant thanks to his skills, and a power up, along with the weapons he made ( this foil will be able to use many magics. and while shirou can copy weapons the foil will be able to copy natural abilitys (like sorcery traits inherited by blood) by studying the person even if its just a sample like the planet terminal.

[[spoiler: Tokisada]]'s presence as the Ruler of the Third War means they were present even before the Grail got stolen, at least in the Third War, and that they were most probably Catholic Saints, [[spoiler: even if not necessarily canonical]], and that they were kept secret for security reasons.

[[WMG:There will be a fifth holy grail war that will include a foil to shirou]]

kairi being a foil to kiritsugu he properly distrusts other Masters even when they offer him alliances, summoned a Saber-class Servant from Arthurian legend, fights mages using modern weapons (including guns with unusual ammunition) despite being a mage, and was deeply affected by the death of a girl close to him. However, their motivations and desires for the Grail couldn't be anymore different. Kiritsugu had an extremely selfless and massive wish to create a world of true peace, always sought and coldly and pragmatically killed and/or sacrificed everything in order to achieve it, and found himself utterly betrayed by his dream and pushed into despair at realizing everything he did was for nothing. Kairi, on the other hand, willingly admits that his wish to bring his stepdaughter back to life is small and not one likely to ever happen, and while pragmatic on the job rarely shuts out his emotions otherwise, and even when dying unable to achieve his dream still had enough satisfaction left to Go Out with a Smile.

** To elaborate, they're also based on how they're viewed. Apocryphia! Vlad is the one viewed as the savior of Wallachia, hero of the people; Extra! Vlad is what the rest of the world views him as, a cruel zealot whose past time is skewering people.

Think about it. He's a Kotomine and what kind of Christian wouldn't want to meet a real saint, much less capture her? There's no doubt he has some kind of EvilPlan involving Jeanne.
** Meet a real saint? [[spoiler:He IS a real saint.]]
*** By all technicality, [[spoiler: Amakusa Shiro Tokisada is not recognized as a Saint by the Vatican. He is only known as such by Japanese Catholics.]]

** I was under the impression that a Ruler was summoned during the Third Holy Grail War because of Avenger. (Who messed up the entire system through both his Class and ambiguous alignment) The Greater Grail only summons a Ruler if things start becoming seriously messed up, I believe
*** Rulers are given a clear explanation of when they are summoned in Volume 2: Either the war must have an element that places uncertainty in the war (say, Avenger, the summoning of two different versions of the same Saber and the Nazis and Imperial Japanese Army fighting over the Grail) or that the Grail war will have a significant impact on the outside world. They most likely weren't summoned in the 4th and 5th because Angra Mainyu has influence on the rules and can scratch out unleashing a genocidal curse as "changing the world significantly" from the list.
*** If I'm not mistaken, the explanation given is that [[spoiler: Tokisada]] was deliberately summoned as Ruler by the Einzberns ''in place'' of Avenger during the Third War, for the same reason (namely, gaining an advantage to compensate for [[StupidCrooks their own seemingly bottomless incompetence]]). Apparently it wasn't enough, since [[MindScrew they somehow managed]] [[BeyondTheImpossible not to win the War]] despite having a Servant that could just [[StoryBreakerPower Command Seal all the others into killing themselves whenever he wanted]]. It's unclear whether the whole backup-Servant-team system and the associated Ruler Class exist in the main timeline; there's no mechanical obstacle to it, but it would contradict with Angra Mainyu's existence to an extent, since if Rulers existed one would have been summoned in the Third War to prevent the Grail's contamination in the first place.
*** So, if the Einzberns summoning a Ruler-class servant during the Third War leads to Apocrypha, and them summoning an Avenger leads to Stay Night, what would happen if they summoned another Extra-Class servant (i.e., a Foreigner or Alter Ego)?

While WordOfGod states that Amakusa Shirou is the main antagonist of Fate/Apocrypha it seem a little too obvious. I think that a different character (possibly Shakespeare or Karna) will end up being the true villain who is trying to destroy the world, and Ruler, Red team, and Black Team will be forced to work together to defeat them.

The method she had used was going to run out soon and she wanted to spare him pain. So when she was certain he would be in agony soon, she kissed him so he would pass before his sense of pain returned instead of afterwards.

[[WMG:there will be a fifth holy grail war that will include a foil to shirou]]

kairi shishigou mordred master in fate apocrypha was a foil to kiritsugu (they were and his relationship with his saber servant was a foil to kiritsugus relationship with artoria like shishigou and mordred died with smiles on their faces. in contrast to artoria and kiritsguu

The method she had used was going to run out soon and she wanted to spare him pain. So when she was certain he would be in agony soon, she kissed him so he would pass before his sense of pain returned instead of afterwards.

When Mordred [[spoiler:is dying alongside Kairi]] she has a vision of Caliburn in the stone alone and an opportunity to try to pull it out. When she hesitates Merlin asks her if she's going to try or not just before Saber shows up to remove it. Merlin would never ask Saber something like that since this was the purpose he helped Uther ''create'' Saber for in the first place. The only way it makes sense is if you remember the fact that Merlin is still alive and trapped in Avalon. As such he is not in the Throne and can only manifest in very specific ways such as dreams. The Merlin that Mordred meets is the real one, watching over her the entire time and giving her a chance to do what she wanted to and then showing her the moment that Saber removed Caliburn when she doesn't take it.

when Mordred [[spoiler:is dying alongside Kairi]] she has a vision of Caliburn in the stone alone and an opportunity to try to pull it out. When she hesitates Merlin asks her if she's going to try or not just before Saber shows up to remove it. Merlin would never ask Saber something like that since this was the purpose he helped Uther ''create'' Saber for in the first place. The only way it makes sense is if you remember the fact that Merlin is still alive and trapped in Avalon. As such he is not in the Throne and can only manifest in very specific ways such as dreams. The Merlin that Mordred meets is the real one, watching over her the entire time and giving her a chance to do what she wanted to and then showing her the moment that Saber removed Caliburn when she doesn't take it.

when Mordred [[spoiler:is dying alongside Kairi]] she has a vision of Caliburn in the stone alone and an opportunity to try to pull it out. When she hesitates Merlin asks her if she's going to try or not just before Saber shows up to remove it. Merlin would never ask Saber something like that since this was the purpose he helped Uther ''create'' Saber for in the first place. The only way it makes sense is if you remember the fact that Merlin is still alive and trapped in Avalon. As such he is not in the Throne and can only manifest in very specific ways such as dreams. The Merlin that Mordred meets is the real one giving her a chance to do what she wanted to and then showing her the moment that Saber removed Caliburn when she doesn't take it.

While WordOfGod states that Amakusa Shirou is the main antagonist of Fate/Apocrypha it seem a little too obvious. I think that a different character (possibly Shakespeare or Karna) will end up being the true villain who is trying to destroy the world, and Ruler, Red team, and Black Team will be forced to work together to defeat them.

** To elaborate, they're also based on how they're viewed. Berserker! Vlad is the one viewed as the savior of Wallachia, hero of the people; Lancer! Vlad is what the rest of the world views him as, a cruel zealot whose past time is skewering people.

[[WMG: Shirou Kotomine wants to capture Jeanne D´arc]]

** I´d say this is plausible, but it isn´t. The Grail got stolen after the 3rd War, So Shirou would still be a child at this point in time.