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* Now that you mention it...if she [[RealAfterAll gain her Wonderland powers in real life]], then why didn't she use her [[ImpaledWithExtremePrejudice vorpal blade]], [[MoreDakka pepper grinder]], [[DropTheHammer hobby horse]], or [[ThereIsNoKillLikeOverkill all of the above?]] Maybe she figured she wouldn't [[CherryTapping need to use any of those things]]. Or maybe she [[IronicDeath wanted him to die by train]]. It's not entirely clear...
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* Now that you mention it...if she [[RealAfterAll gain her Wonderland powers in real life]], then why didn't she use her [[ImpaledWithExtremePrejudice vorpal blade]], [[MoreDakka pepper grinder]], [[DropTheHammer hobby horse]], horse, or [[ThereIsNoKillLikeOverkill all of the above?]] Maybe she figured she wouldn't [[CherryTapping need to use any of those things]]. Or maybe she [[IronicDeath wanted him to die by train]]. It's not entirely clear...
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* I mean, surely that’s more of an...ideological interpretation than a WMG, and pretty subjective anyway. But yes, it could definitely be said to have feminist themes (it deals with violence and sexual entitlement towards women in particular, for example) and features a multidimensional female protagonist who wins the day against a rapist who, among many other things, clearly doesn’t have the highest opinion of women. Not sure what Alice being long-haired and pretty has to do with anything though.
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Around the parts of the dress where it's thinner (her left arm for example has a thin strand) it looks like it's flowing seamlessly into her skin. It's not actually a ''dress'', it's ''all her''.
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Around the parts of the dress where it's thinner (her left arm for example has a thin strand) it looks like it's flowing seamlessly into her skin. It's not actually a ''dress'', it's ''all her''.her''.
[[WMG: Alice is actually a [[VideoGame/Persona5 Phantom Thief of Hearts]].]]
Think about it: she's able to travel within a mental world that's all inside her own head, upon which her own clothes change into something more fantastical and reality defying, and she can even access weapons she does not carry over into the real world.
Maybe Alice is actually a Phantom Thief of Hearts without even being aware of it. The reason she never manifests a Persona or a mask representing that is because Wonderland is really her own Palace, and her distorted desires is her own Survivor's Guilt (from the first game) and later denying the truth of whats going on around her (the second game). She still has the clothes and fantastic abilities because she has the potential to have a Persona, like Haru did.
Her Cognitions are reliably distorted by her own insanity and childishness. The Griffin could be how she sees her Father, The Mad Hatter, March Hare and Dormouse as her father's friends, the Cheshire Cat as Diana (her own cat), The Duchess as Pris Witless, the Orderlies as Tweedledee and Dum, the Caterpillar as Mr. Radcliffe, the Carpenter as Nan Sharp and the Walrus as Jack Splatter, and possibly the White Rabbit to Lizzie. The Jabberwock is a Cognition of her own Family in general, that symbolizes her survivor's guilt much like Futaba's cognition of Wakaba did so as well.
Her Shadow, the ruler of said Palace, is none other than the Queen of Hearts. The Cheshire Cat does somewhat allude that they're connected, being "two parts of the same whole", and the Queen says in the first game "If you destroy me, you destroy yourself!"
As Alice goes through the place the first time, she rids herself of her distorted desires to not face reality and defeats her own Shadow (but not killing it completely as the sequel shows), removing most of her own insanity. The second time around, it starts reappearing partially because of her distorted desire to not see the truth (who killed her family, what's going on around her and whatnot). The Queen of Hearts is even helpful in the latter, trying to get Alice to confront the root of the problem. This somewhat mirror's Futaba's situation, whose Shadow is her repressed positive traits.
When she does start realizing the truth, she stops going into her own Palace and goes into Dr. Bumby's Palace, the Dollhouse. There, she kills the Dollmaker, who is Bumby's Shadow, which means she kills Bumby as well via Mental Shutdown and throwing him into an oncoming train.
[[WMG: Alice is actually a [[VideoGame/Persona5 Phantom Thief of Hearts]].]]
Think about it: she's able to travel within a mental world that's all inside her own head, upon which her own clothes change into something more fantastical and reality defying, and she can even access weapons she does not carry over into the real world.
Maybe Alice is actually a Phantom Thief of Hearts without even being aware of it. The reason she never manifests a Persona or a mask representing that is because Wonderland is really her own Palace, and her distorted desires is her own Survivor's Guilt (from the first game) and later denying the truth of whats going on around her (the second game). She still has the clothes and fantastic abilities because she has the potential to have a Persona, like Haru did.
Her Cognitions are reliably distorted by her own insanity and childishness. The Griffin could be how she sees her Father, The Mad Hatter, March Hare and Dormouse as her father's friends, the Cheshire Cat as Diana (her own cat), The Duchess as Pris Witless, the Orderlies as Tweedledee and Dum, the Caterpillar as Mr. Radcliffe, the Carpenter as Nan Sharp and the Walrus as Jack Splatter, and possibly the White Rabbit to Lizzie. The Jabberwock is a Cognition of her own Family in general, that symbolizes her survivor's guilt much like Futaba's cognition of Wakaba did so as well.
Her Shadow, the ruler of said Palace, is none other than the Queen of Hearts. The Cheshire Cat does somewhat allude that they're connected, being "two parts of the same whole", and the Queen says in the first game "If you destroy me, you destroy yourself!"
As Alice goes through the place the first time, she rids herself of her distorted desires to not face reality and defeats her own Shadow (but not killing it completely as the sequel shows), removing most of her own insanity. The second time around, it starts reappearing partially because of her distorted desire to not see the truth (who killed her family, what's going on around her and whatnot). The Queen of Hearts is even helpful in the latter, trying to get Alice to confront the root of the problem. This somewhat mirror's Futaba's situation, whose Shadow is her repressed positive traits.
When she does start realizing the truth, she stops going into her own Palace and goes into Dr. Bumby's Palace, the Dollhouse. There, she kills the Dollmaker, who is Bumby's Shadow, which means she kills Bumby as well via Mental Shutdown and throwing him into an oncoming train.
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[[WMG: [[spoiler: Alice never killed Bumby, it was all in her mind.]]]]
The revelation that [[spoiler: Dr. Bumby was the one that caused her fire, started all these problems with Alice, AND was going to get away with it]] sent Alice off the deep end. So she enters a delusion where she [[spoiler: kills him]], then exits to see [[spoiler: Londerland.]] So, in her delusion, [[spoiler: Bumby is dead, and she is in a cross between her fantasy world, and the real world.]] But in real life, [[spoiler: Bumby is alive and free, and Alice is so far gone that there is no more hope for her.]]
* I thought that is how it was intended [[spoiler: I thought she escaped from the asylum, perhaps even then a little bit hallucinating because she had her hair and old clothes, to meet with Bumby. When he told her she had no chance of bringing him to justice it pushed her off the edge and she went completely insane, symbolised by Londerland, and just imagined she killed him to release the stress from all of those information coming in. The start of insanity is even marked by her changing into her wonderland look.]]
The revelation that [[spoiler: Dr. Bumby was the one that caused her fire, started all these problems with Alice, AND was going to get away with it]] sent Alice off the deep end. So she enters a delusion where she [[spoiler: kills him]], then exits to see [[spoiler: Londerland.]] So, in her delusion, [[spoiler: Bumby is dead, and she is in a cross between her fantasy world, and the real world.]] But in real life, [[spoiler: Bumby is alive and free, and Alice is so far gone that there is no more hope for her.]]
* I thought that is how it was intended [[spoiler: I thought she escaped from the asylum, perhaps even then a little bit hallucinating because she had her hair and old clothes, to meet with Bumby. When he told her she had no chance of bringing him to justice it pushed her off the edge and she went completely insane, symbolised by Londerland, and just imagined she killed him to release the stress from all of those information coming in. The start of insanity is even marked by her changing into her wonderland look.]]
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* Well, the Cheshire Cat is infamous for useless - I'm sorry - ''cryptic'' advice but also for being Alice's best friend and moral support. It would make sense for him to use his teleportation to help her in small ways. Not to mention that he is just as terrified of the Train as everyone else and has a sense of self preservation, him leaving the cake might not be that far off.
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* The whole journey could be to get Alice to collect all the memory pieces. While the Caterpillar and the Queen know what's going on, Alice won't believe them if they told her straight that her own doctor is the one who killed her family and raped his sister, or that he's pimping brainwashed children. They're her subconcious, they're by nature inclined to being criptic, surely the naked truth would have caused Alice's mind to collapse. Alice needed to collect all those memories first in order to remember her sister's past with Bumby, his own thoughts about what he was doing and some other memories of others to understand and fill minor holes (like Radcliff saying he would burn an awful hat if he ever gets one to ''destroy the evidence'').
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* Her mind was already shattered. She just added another layer of delusion on top of what was already going on there - Bumby was the only person who managed to get close to her to let her open up a little, and then proceeded to poke around in her mind. Regardless of his intention, at that point, Alice's mental defense kicks in - he's in her mind, doing things, he doesn't belong there, there's no way he's anything other than a CompleteMonster according to her broken psyche. And seeing as we're in Victorian times, times of public sexual repression that often resulted in private debauchery, those scenes and themes aren't something a child couldn't have stumbled upon, so the images might have been there from before. Needless to say, this interpretation is so downright depressing and horrible that it needs to be killed with fire.
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* Her mind was already shattered. She just added another layer of delusion on top of what was already going on there - Bumby was the only person who managed to get close to her to let her open up a little, and then proceeded to poke around in her mind. Regardless of his intention, at that point, Alice's mental defense kicks in - he's in her mind, doing things, he doesn't belong there, there's no way he's anything other than a CompleteMonster monster according to her broken psyche. And seeing as we're in Victorian times, times of public sexual repression that often resulted in private debauchery, those scenes and themes aren't something a child couldn't have stumbled upon, so the images might have been there from before. Needless to say, this interpretation is so downright depressing and horrible that it needs to be killed with fire.
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It's... hard to say if it worked at some point after the end of the game, but that makes the most sense to me as the intent.
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It's... hard to say if it worked at some point after the end of the game, but that makes the most sense to me as the intent.intent.
[[WMG: The Fleshmaiden dress [[BodyHorror is not a dress at all...]] ]]
Around the parts of the dress where it's thinner (her left arm for example has a thin strand) it looks like it's flowing seamlessly into her skin. It's not actually a ''dress'', it's ''all her''.
[[WMG: The Fleshmaiden dress [[BodyHorror is not a dress at all...]] ]]
Around the parts of the dress where it's thinner (her left arm for example has a thin strand) it looks like it's flowing seamlessly into her skin. It's not actually a ''dress'', it's ''all her''.
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*The plaques weren't used as a rating system. [[spoiler: There's an animation sequence that shows after Alice has went through the dollhouse section, (as she's starting to piece what's really happening together) of the kids going through a factory line and having the plaques placed on them. When this is being done, the numbers are chronological in order as each new doll/child comes through. Also, if you walk through the Wayward Youth orphanage center you see that no number is repeated and in a sequence.]]
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Put simply, she let herself think she didn't know what happened because she (justifiably) didn't want to deal with witnessing what [[RapeAsDrama happened]] to Lizzie, or indeed the fact that the one responsible is now 'helping' her. By extension, this would mean that she probably also knew what Bumby was doing with the orphanage kids, and the dollhouse level is a representation of her repressed guilt, particularly the part where she has to walk between the giant doll's legs, symbolizing how she allowed such things to happen. While concious-Alice has repressed this to the level where she ''thinks'' she doesn't know, the Wonderlander's represent her subconscious, so they do, hence the Red Queen ("What you claim not to know is merely what you've denied"), the Hatter ("Forgetting is just forgetting, except when it's not. Then they call it something else. I'd like to forget what you've done. I tried. But I can't.") and the Caterpillar ("You may not yet have paid enough for witnessing the pain of others"). Yes, this WMG is very SilentHill-esque.
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Put simply, she let herself think she didn't know what happened because she (justifiably) didn't want to deal with witnessing what [[RapeAsDrama happened]] to Lizzie, or indeed the fact that the one responsible is now 'helping' her. By extension, this would mean that she probably also knew what Bumby was doing with the orphanage kids, and the dollhouse level is a representation of her repressed guilt, particularly the part where she has to walk between the giant doll's legs, symbolizing how she allowed such things to happen. While concious-Alice has repressed this to the level where she ''thinks'' she doesn't know, the Wonderlander's represent her subconscious, so they do, hence the Red Queen ("What you claim not to know is merely what you've denied"), the Hatter ("Forgetting is just forgetting, except when it's not. Then they call it something else. I'd like to forget what you've done. I tried. But I can't.") and the Caterpillar ("You may not yet have paid enough for witnessing the pain of others"). Yes, this WMG is very SilentHill-esque.''Franchise/SilentHill''-esque.
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An observant player may notice that some numbers are found on more than one child, even in the same room. This leads me to believe that the purpose of the plaques is to ''rate'' them. Whether Bumby rates them himself or gets "customer feedback"...
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An observant player may notice that some numbers are found on more than one child, even in the same room. This leads me to believe that the purpose of the plaques is to ''rate'' them. Whether Bumby rates them himself or gets "customer feedback"...feedback"...
[[WMG:The characters aren't ''really'' sending Alice on a wild goose chase for information.]]
I know it may seem like it: The Cheshire Cat tells her to find the Hatter, who points her to the Mock Turtle, who directs her to see the Carpenter (albeit ostensibly for entertainment), who has her looking for the Caterpillar, who has her heading in the direction of the Queen, who pretty much tells her she has much to do, and swallows her. And all along the way and thereafter, she have to fight Ruin and other evils, like the Daimyo Wasps. Seems like it would be better in some ways just to go to the Queen (if she didn't need those weapons and want those upgrades both weapon and health, that is).
But wait, this isn't reality, this is taking place in Alice's head. It follows that, under the guise of sending Alice to someone more helpful -- or entertaining -- these manifestation's of the parts of Alice's psyche are sending her around to parts of her mind that are particularly infested with Ruin in order to expel it and therefore, perhaps, bring her that much closer to sanity.
It's... hard to say if it worked at some point after the end of the game, but that makes the most sense to me as the intent.
[[WMG:The characters aren't ''really'' sending Alice on a wild goose chase for information.]]
I know it may seem like it: The Cheshire Cat tells her to find the Hatter, who points her to the Mock Turtle, who directs her to see the Carpenter (albeit ostensibly for entertainment), who has her looking for the Caterpillar, who has her heading in the direction of the Queen, who pretty much tells her she has much to do, and swallows her. And all along the way and thereafter, she have to fight Ruin and other evils, like the Daimyo Wasps. Seems like it would be better in some ways just to go to the Queen (if she didn't need those weapons and want those upgrades both weapon and health, that is).
But wait, this isn't reality, this is taking place in Alice's head. It follows that, under the guise of sending Alice to someone more helpful -- or entertaining -- these manifestation's of the parts of Alice's psyche are sending her around to parts of her mind that are particularly infested with Ruin in order to expel it and therefore, perhaps, bring her that much closer to sanity.
It's... hard to say if it worked at some point after the end of the game, but that makes the most sense to me as the intent.
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The Dollhouse: Like in the final game, there is no boss for this chapter. Considering the somber mood, the creepy atmosphere, and the increasingly unsettling imagery, an actual boss would seem completely pointless.
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The Dollhouse: Like in the final game, there is no boss for this chapter. Considering the somber mood, the creepy atmosphere, and the increasingly unsettling imagery, an actual boss would seem completely pointless.pointless.
[[WMG: Those numbered plaques aren't for identification.]]
An observant player may notice that some numbers are found on more than one child, even in the same room. This leads me to believe that the purpose of the plaques is to ''rate'' them. Whether Bumby rates them himself or gets "customer feedback"...
[[WMG: Those numbered plaques aren't for identification.]]
An observant player may notice that some numbers are found on more than one child, even in the same room. This leads me to believe that the purpose of the plaques is to ''rate'' them. Whether Bumby rates them himself or gets "customer feedback"...
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The Dollhouse: Like in the final game, there is no boss for this chapter. Considering the somber mood, the creepy atmosphere, the lack of enemies, and the unsettling imagery, an actual boss would seem completely pointless.
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The Dollhouse: Like in the final game, there is no boss for this chapter. Considering the somber mood, the creepy atmosphere, the lack of enemies, and the increasingly unsettling imagery, an actual boss would seem completely pointless.
