History Main / MagicVersusScience

** ComicBook/GhostRider vs. [[Characters/DCComicsLobo Lobo]]: Ghost Rider is empowered with supernatural hellish abilities by the demon Zarathos. Lobo has his natural Czarnian physiology and a plethora of technological weapons. [[spoiler:Magic wins, as Lobo had no holy weapons and thus no good way to put down Zarathos for good, while Zarathos had both soul destruction and SoulEating to put down Lobo for good]].

** Interestingly, this universe's magic is, at times, more scientific than the local "scientific" esper powers. The program that creates espers can be best summed up as "plug kids into the machine and hope for the best", and produces [[SuperpowerLottery unpredictable power-sets]] and [[SuperWeight levels]]. Magic can be used by anyone but espers at a level based on study and practice (with a few exceptions) and the knowledge of spells can be used to invent entirely new ones, or alter per-existing ones.

* Downplayed in ''Warrior Kings'' from Microids, there are technically 3 main factions - Imperial, Pagan and Renaissance. The main conflict is between [[ReligionIsMagic Imperial]] and the [[SummonMagic Pagan]], the only science faction is the Renaissance. While a player can be purely Renaissance which is the only way to get the TacticalSuperweaponUnit Rocket Tower, the player can also hybridized to be Imperial-Renaissance or Pagan-Renaissance which give them unique technologies at the cost of not getting the best technologies from pure Imperial and Pagan.

* Downplayed in ''Warrior Kings'' from Microids, there are technically 3 main factions - Imperial, Pagan and Renaissance. The main conflict is between [[ReligionIsMagic Imperial]] and the [[SummonMagic Pagan]], the only science faction is the Renaissance. While a player can be purely Renaissance which is the only way to get the SuperweaponUnit Rocket Tower, the player can also hybridized to be Imperial-Renaissance or Pagan-Renaissance which give them unique technologies at the cost of not getting the best technologies from pure Imperial and Pagan.

* [[Characters/SpiderManPeterParker Spider-Man]] versus Morlun. While Spidey's powers are based on "totemic spirits" (read: magic), they weren't helping that much against Morlun. So he beats Morlun with ''radiation''. After checking some of Morlun's blood under a microscope.

* ''WebVideo/ImAMarvelAndImADC'': In the Randomverse, Characters/{{Batman|TheCharacter}} puts this trope to use in the second season of After Hours. He deduces that something magical is blocking [[Characters/SpiderManPeterParker Spider-Man]]'s memories of [[Comicbook/OneMoreDay his marriage]] and tells Joker to have [[RidiculouslyHumanRobots Lance]] read his mind. Lance explodes from his systems overloading, as, according to Batman, "Science and magic usually don't mix."

** In ''Film/{{Thor}}'', Jane Foster believes that incidents that can be described as magical or supernatural are actually scientific phenomena that haven't been fully investigated and examined. [[Characters/TheMightyThorThorOdinson Thor]] confirms this belief for her, leading to the explanation that Asgardians are {{Sufficiently Advanced Alien}}s who've developed technology so far beyond that of humans that they can casually wield power that humans can't even comprehend.

** In ''VideoGame/DreamfallTheLongestJourney'', some of the most advanced technologies like FasterThanLight travel ceased to function after restoring the Guardian to his post, implying that it was actually magic.

** [[Characters/ShazamBlackMarvelFamily Black Adam]] vs. [[Characters/MarvelComicsApocalypse Apocalypse]]: Black Adam represents Magic, with the Living Lightning enabling him to channel six [[Myth/EgyptianMythology Egyptian gods]]. Apocalypse meanwhile represents Science, being one of the oldest mutants in existence, and enhancing his powers via [[SufficientlyAdvancedAliens Celestial technology]]. [[spoiler:Science wins as Apocalypse's mutant powers and technology allowed him to adapt to and counter several of Black Adam's magical powers such as [[EnergyAbsorption absorbing his Living Lightning]], as well as giving Apocalypse an insane regeneration that even Black Adam couldn't overcome.]]

* In ''WesternAnimation/JusticeLeague'', [[Characters/SupermanLexLuthor Lex Luthor]] is highly prejudiced against the magic performed by characters such as Tala. When he decides to give it a chance in the episode "Alive!", [[spoiler:he brings back [[Characters/NewGodsDarkseid Darkseid]]]]. WordOfGod states this is because [[spoiler:[[DyingCurse he was sacrificing Tala's life to do it, and she made sure it was Darkseid who returned in revenge]]]].

* Appeared to be one of the ongoing themes of ''WesternAnimation/ThunderCats2011'', particularly in regards to Mumm-Ra.

** Again, particularly ironic, since religion and science historically had, and largely still have, a positive relationship (contrary to arguments you might witness online). More specifically, there was the very logical belief among early theistic philosphers that an orderly God would create an orderly universe that could be studied and understood in an orderly way, and thus, the scientific method was born.

* In ''WesternAnimation/TheVentureBrothers'', Dr. Orpheus and Dr. Venture have arguments about this. Played with in that while Orpheus takes the usual "magic is a divine force of nature" stance, Venture actually argues that magic and science are the same damn thing (at least in the end).

* This is an explicit divide in the Franchise/{{Nasuverse}}, as true Magic is literally "what science and technology cannot accomplish" (i.e. a miracle) and its actual power is proportional to how mysterious and obscure it is. [[FunctionalMagic Magecraft]] sits in the middle as the "artificial reenactment of miracles"; the science or methodology of magic.
** In ''Literature/FateZero'', it is shown that elder magi don't like to rely on technology (despite a character from the ''VisualNovel/FateStayNight'' stating that it is more efficient than magecraft). One of the protagonists uses this for maximum effect, complementing his comparatively poor magecraft with sniper rifles and landmines.
** In ''Literature/TheGardenOfSinners'', Touko states that mages believe that even ''explaining'' how their own particular brand of magic works weakens it. ("Mystery" and "Weird" used to be far stronger words than they are now.) Whether this is true or not isn't shown.

To see Magic A Versus Magic B, there's UnEqualRites. If you were looking for a trope where scientists and wizards actually get into a brawl, see TheMagicVersusTechnologyWar. ScienceFantasy is a genre for the heavy mixing of the two, which may or may not contain such a war. HowUnscientific is a violation of GenreConsistency that allows a work to temporarily operate as ScienceFantasy. Contrast with {{Magitek}}, where both magic and science are used in combination.

** Harry Dresden [[WalkingTechbane can kill a computer by standing within twenty feet of it]]. The books explain this tendency by saying that magic involves the manipulation of energy and matter, which creates a "Murphyonic field" around wizards makes so that near them complicated devices tend to fail more[[note]]And in interesting ways: a computer may literally explode, or the hard drive might get wiped, as if it was hit by a massive magnetic surge. A car's ignition switch may refuse to start, or the door ajar alarm might just go off incessantly. The only guarantee is that "high tech" ''will'' fail, somehow, ranging from mild annoyance to utter catastrophe[[/note]]. When trying to wizards are able to purposely break any sufficiently advanced technology in the area (unless it has enough backups), simply by conjuring up their anti-tech field and projecting it: Harry even notes that it requires barely any effort at all. It's also implied that older wizards have even more trouble with technology: Whereas Dresden can usually keep his Beetle going, his mentor Ebenezer drives a truck from the 30s. In the same vein, Harry had no problem running through a hospital in ''Grave Peril'', but refused to go anywhere near the hospital to see [[spoiler:Michael after he was seriously injured]] several years later, implying that his increasing power is harder to suppress.

* Downplayed in the crossover between ''WebVideo/EmpiresSMP'' Season 2 and ''WebVideo/{{Hermitcraft|Server}}'' Season 9, with ''Empires'' representing the Magic side of the equation and ''Hermitcraft'' representing the Science side. The Hermits tend to use more industrialized and technologically advanced redstone contraptions for resource farms, demonstrated most prominently by the mass amounts of resources in Hermitopia, the Hermits' outpost on the Empires server. On the other hand, the Empires rulers tend to use smaller scales of production and have access to powerful magical/supernatural abilities, with Empires-False and her DieselPunk empire Cogsmeade being the main exception [[spoiler:due to Empires-False being originally from Hermitcraft]]. It's downplayed in that while there is a mild rivalry[[note]]in that the Hermits' large-scale resource farms posed a threat to the monopolies and bartering economy of the Empires server[[/note]], the rulers and Hermits are capable at adapting to new environments when switching servers and collaborating with each other towards shared goals.

* Downplayed in the crossover between ''LetsPlay/EmpiresSMP'' Season 2 and ''LetsPlay/{{Hermitcraft|Server}}'' Season 9, with ''Empires'' representing the Magic side of the equation and ''Hermitcraft'' representing the Science side. The Hermits tend to use more industrialized and technologically advanced redstone contraptions for resource farms, demonstrated most prominently by the mass amounts of resources in Hermitopia, the Hermits' outpost on the Empires server. On the other hand, the Empires rulers tend to use smaller scales of production and have access to powerful magical/supernatural abilities, with Empires-False and her DieselPunk empire Cogsmeade being the main exception [[spoiler:due to Empires-False being originally from Hermitcraft]]. It's downplayed in that while there is a mild rivalry[[note]]in that the Hermits' large-scale resource farms posed a threat to the monopolies and bartering economy of the Empires server[[/note]], the rulers and Hermits are capable at adapting to new environments when switching servers and collaborating with each other towards shared goals.

* ''LetsPlay/NewLifeSMP'': {{Discussed|Trope}} in Scott's 4th episode; Sparrow plans to use science to gain hybrid-based powers as an alternative to dying to get them, and is initially insistent on rejecting magic, but Scott simply calls science "[[SufficientlyAnalyzedMagic magic we understand]]" and doesn't think the two concepts are mutually exclusive.

** The two-episode story arc that resolved Akari and Onari's conflict also had the Newton Eyecon "running away" after the heroes acquire the Himiko Eyecon, with both of them feeling that his belief in science and her mysticism are incompatible. A few different factors make this particularly head-scratching: ignoring the fact that Sir Issac Newton was a devout Christian in his lifetime, the entire series is about the supernatural (TheHero Takeru is a ghost trying to find a way to come back to life) -- which is the only reason Newton and Himiko are around to be {{Transformation Trinket}}s in the first place. After Akari stands up for Onari in the face of a MadScientist villain, the two Eyecons resolve their differences, allowing Takeru to combine their powers and defeat the MonsterOfTheWeek.

* In ''VideoGame/MarvelVsCapcom3'', [[Characters/{{AIM}} M.O.D.O.K.]] is adamant that his scientific devices will prevail over the magic powers of some of his adversaries.

* ''{{VideoGame/Arcanum|OfSteamworksAndMagickObscura}}'' is an exceptionally well thought-out example: "Magick" is actually {{Reality Warp|er}}ing, and the more complex a given device is, the more likely having the laws of physics bent in its presence will break it. Result: most mages can only ride trains if they stay in the caboose for the safety of both mage and machine, and powerful mages have to learn to teleport or get used to walking. Likewise, attempting to use magic around a complex machine is a bit like sticking your hand in said machine; you'll break it if you're lucky, if not it'll shred you without missing a beat. Result; complex technology generates its own anti-magic field. Thus, spells are less effective against someone with a lot of high-tech gear, and becoming a technologist weakens your ability to use magic.

** Also absent for the {{Film/Predator}} in ''VideoGame/MortalKombatX'': [[spoiler:his kind have no experience with magic, but in his arcade ending, he gladly uses Shinnok's amulet to upgrade his arsenal with {{Magitek}}]].

* Franchise/SpiderMan versus Morlun. While Spidey's powers are based on "totemic spirits" (read: magic), they weren't helping that much against Morlun. So he beats Morlun with ''radiation''. After checking some of Morlun's blood under a microscope.

* Magic in the Franchise/MarvelUniverse unsurprisingly tends to be a combination of all the conflicts listed above. It usually plays havoc with any technology it is used against and attempts to analyze it scientifically tend to fail like getting different results from each test. A lot of magic involves invoking entities or physics from another universe making it incompatible with devices or scientific laws from the main universe. It also had an ideology element as attempts to understand it rationally tend to blow up in one's face as [[ComicBook/MisterFantastic Reed Richards]] found out in one storyline.
* When ComicBook/BlackAdam (about as powerful as Franchise/{{Superman}}, but with no KryptoniteFactor) [[spoiler:goes on a RoaringRampageOfRevenge]] in ''ComicBook/FiftyTwo'' he goes after the {{Mad Scientist}}s on Oolong Island [[spoiler:after he killed the Four Horsemen]]. Most of the Mad Scientists are understandably freaking out. Black Adam easily plows through their defenses. Then one of the Mad Scientists gives the others a pep talk. And then [[spoiler:the Mad Scientists ''kick Black Adam's ass''. They blind him, time freeze him, give him a tesseract concussion, beat and pour acid on him, and give him artificial spasticity in less than a minute]]. Science won hands down this time.
* Franchise/{{Batman}} acknowledges the existence of things such as demons or ghosts, but does not view it as anything ''super''natural, as even magic has its own natural laws and limits. As a matter of fact, during his time training to be Batman, he learnt sleight of hand from ComicBook/{{Zatanna}} as an assistant in her Vegas magician's act.

* In Creator/JamesRobinson's ''Comicbook/{{Starman}}'', Ted Knight, the original Starman, is a scientist who reluctantly accepts the existence of a form of energy that hasn't been explained ''yet'', which provides his teammates Comicbook/DoctorFate and Comicbook/TheSpectre with their powers. By contrast, his son Jack (the fourth or fifth Starman) hates learning too much about how the cosmic rod Ted invented actually ''works'' because he prefers to think of it as magic.
* As mentioned above, Reed Richards of the ComicBook/FantasticFour has a lot of issues with magic, and will often claim that it doesn't exist or that it's just another branch of science. It's been proven multiple times that despite being the world's smartest man, Reed has ''never'' been able to get a proper grasp or understanding of magic, but he ''does'' often square off against it with his scientific mind when utilized by various villains. For the record, [[ComicBook/TheThing Ben Grimm]] once called Reed out on this tendency, and suggested the ''real'' reason Reed never acknowledges magic as real is that he's no longer the smartest man in the room whenever the subject comes up. He also points out that after meeting countless sorcerers and mages over the years, Reed's insistence that magic isn't real has long since crossed the line from [[ArbitrarySkepticism reasonable skepticism]] and into [[FlatEarthAtheist outright stubbornness.]]

* When [[ComicBook/AntMan Hank Pym]] goes up against magic in ''ComicBook/MightyAvengers'' he actually makes some headway on defeating it with science. He manages to entrap ComicBook/{{Loki}}, both a master of magic and PhysicalGod, with scientific innovation and nullify an EldritchAbomination possessing ComicBook/{{Quicksilver}} casting spells at SuperSpeed by scrambling his brain's speech center.

* As ''ComicBook/TheBooksOfMagic'', where the page quote comes from, explains, magic and science in Franchise/TheDCU are opposed to each other. Where and when one exists in abundance, the other is scarce. The Starheart, the source of Alan Scott's power as the Golden Age Franchise/GreenLantern, was created by the Guardians of the Universe when they collected Oa's magical energies and ejected from the planet, which allowed the science that led to the creation of the modern Green Lantern Rings to be developed.

* ''WebVideo/ImAMarvelAndImADC'': In the Randomverse, Franchise/{{Batman}} puts this trope to use in the second season of After Hours. He deduces that something magical is blocking Franchise/SpiderMan's memories of [[Comicbook/OneMoreDay his marriage]] and tells Joker to have [[RidiculouslyHumanRobots Lance]] read his mind. Lance explodes from his systems overloading, as, according to Batman, "Science and magic usually don't mix."

** In ''Film/{{Thor}}'', Jane Foster believes that incidents that can be described as magical or supernatural are actually scientific phenomena that haven't been fully investigated and examined. [[ComicBook/TheMightyThor Thor]] confirms this belief for her, leading to the explanation that Asgardians are {{Sufficiently Advanced Alien}}s who've developed technology so far beyond that of humans that they can casually wield power that humans can't even comprehend.

* In ''VideoGame/MarvelVsCapcom3'', ComicBook/{{MODOK}} is adamant that his scientific devices will prevail over the magic powers of some of his adversaries.
-->'''MODOK:''' ''[to Comicbook/IronFist]'' Your chi can never compare to the powers of science!

** Averted in [[Franchise/StarWars Darth Vader]] vs. ComicBook/DoctorDoom. Both combatants are equally skilled at using Magic/The Force and Technology.

** ComicBook/GhostRider vs. ComicBook/{{Lobo}}: Ghost Rider is empowered with supernatural hellish abilities by the demon Zarathos. Lobo has his natural Czarnian physiology and a plethora of technological weapons. [[spoiler:Magic wins, as Lobo had no holy weapons and thus no good way to put down Zarathos for good, while Zarathos had both soul destruction and SoulEating to put down Lobo for good]].

** ComicBook/LexLuthor vs. ComicBook/DoctorDoom: This trope is played with, as the fight pits Lex, who only wields science, wearing a Warsuit that is powered by a Mother Box, against Doom, who wields both science and magic, not only wearing a powered armor suit but also being skilled enough in magic to be a contender for the title of Sorcerer Supreme. [[spoiler: Doom's combination of sorcery and technology wins, as his armor can withstand Lex's attacks long enough for Doom to use techniques such as power siphoning and mind swapping that Lex has no real defense against.]]
** ComicBook/BlackAdam vs. ComicBook/{{Apocalypse}}: Black Adam represents Magic, with the Living Lightning enabling him to channel six [[Myth/EgyptianMythology Egyptian gods]]. Apocalypse meanwhile represents Science, being one of the oldest mutants in existence, and enhancing his powers via [[SufficientlyAdvancedAliens Celestial technology]]. [[spoiler:Science wins as Apocalypse's mutant powers and technology allowed him to adapt to and counter several of Black Adam's magical powers such as [[EnergyAbsorption absorbing his Living Lightning]], as well as giving Apocalypse an insane regeneration that even Black Adam couldn't overcome.]]

* In ''WesternAnimation/JusticeLeague'', ComicBook/LexLuthor is highly prejudiced against the magic performed by characters such as Tala. When he decides to give it a chance in the episode "Alive!", [[spoiler:he brings back {{ComicBook/Darkseid}}]]. WordOfGod states this is because [[spoiler:[[DyingCurse he was sacrificing Tala's life to do it, and she made sure it was Darkseid who returned in revenge]]]].

* Averted very frequently historically. In fact, more often than not magic and science were "allies" since both were on the side of progress. Alchemy is the most obvious expression of this.
** [[http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Science-Versus-Christianity This article]] shows how often it was averted.

* This is the premise of the setting of ''Literature/ACertainMagicalIndex'' and its SpinOff ''Manga/ACertainScientificRailgun'', with a secret EnforcedColdWar going on between the two factions. Magic is secret and controlled by religion while science is public. PsychicPowers are classified as scientific even though they share the category "supernatural" with magic in this setting and tend to break all known laws of physics, due to being widely accepted and studied (most espers know exactly what laws their power breaks and how to make the most of that). The really odd thing is that when it comes right down to it, the only difference between the two sides is methods. Espers ''are'' magicians--that's not a snarky reference to MagicByAnyOtherName, they are literally highly specialized magic users who are unable to use any other form of magic. The science side as a whole makes a lot more sense when you remember that modern espers were invented by an [[Creator/AleisterCrowley evil wizard.]]

* In ''Franchise/StarTrek'' most of the characters are generally adamant that everything is scientifically explainable, even when it's not. Which is interesting mostly because innumerable species in the ''Star Trek'' universe exhibit abilities that would be considered "paranormal" in the real world. Even the [[{{Telepathy}} telepathic]] powers of Federation species such as Betazoids and Vulcans would fall under that category in real life, much less the often godlike powers possessed by very advanced races. Interestingly, there is little evidence on the show that humans at least are inclined to conduct serious scientific investigation of any such powers that are not obviously derived from a technological source, and they are simply dismissed as inexplicable, but not "magical".
** The issue is called out rather explicitly in the TNG episode "Where No One Has Gone Before". Due to the abilities of an alien ("The Traveler") the Enterprise has been transported to a place where thoughts become reality.

'''The Traveler:''' Well yes, this could seem like magic to you.
** {{Discussed|Trope}} in the [[Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine DS9]] first season finale, "In the Hands of the Prophets": the events of the episode are set into motion when Vedek Winn, a dogmatic leader of Bajor's faithful, takes issue with the fact that Keiko O'Brien's teachings of the wormhole are completely secular, referring to the Prophets, the gods of Bajoran religion, as "wormhole aliens" or "wormhole entities". Tensions begin to build on the station as Winn stigmatizes Mrs. O'Brien and drives a wedge between the station's Bajoran residents and Starfleet personnel. Parallels are also drawn between this conflict and Galileo, whose teachings of heliocentrism (the earth revolving around the sun, instead of the sun revolving around the earth) was similarly stigmatized by his more religiously ardent contemporaries.

* ''Series/DoctorWho'' flips back and forth on this. The Doctor is almost always adamant that magic is not real and everything is at worst some sort of unexplained science. Yet several adventures feature stories that match the definitions/descriptions of magic within the story:
** "The Shakespeare Code". The Tenth Doctor explains that while humans took to numbers, [[MonsterOfTheWeek the Carrionites]] took to words that look and act just like witchcraft and which the Carrionites call magic distinct from science. The Doctor insists it is science. Interestingly, it seems as though this is not a phenomenon unique to the Carrionites, as it seems that nearly anyone can use the system, but most lack the ability to understand it enough to make anything more than a basic use of it. The Doctor himself can only grasp the basics and needs help to make it work on a larger scale.
** The Third Doctor's adventures "The Daemons" has TheMaster engage in black magic rituals to summon and control a powerful alien. The Doctor admits that the Master's incantations, gestures, symbols, and rituals are not window dressing, but have actual power matching the exact description of black magic given by the local white witch. Yet The Doctor insists on claiming it is the 'secret science of the Daemons."

*** This might explain the [[FridgeBrilliance Doctor's insistence on magic not existing. His race literally booted it and its followers out. And if it does exist, it means they could be back... and probably be very]] ''[[FridgeBrilliance very]]'' [[FridgeBrilliance pissed.]]

[[folder:Web Comics]]

* The ''Love, Death and Robots'' short ''[[Recap/LoveDeathAndRobotsGoodHunting Good Hunting]]'' is set in a mythical China where magic and myths are gradually giving way to retro-futuristic {{Steampunk}} as the invading British industrialize the country. The heroes adopt science themselves to get back at the greedy British who harm the locals. In the short story this is based on, it is explained that the railroads are disrupting the chi pathways that criss-cross the country, causing the decline.

* This is the premise of the setting of ''LightNovel/ACertainMagicalIndex'' and its SpinOff ''Manga/ACertainScientificRailgun'', with a secret EnforcedColdWar going on between the two factions. Magic is secret and controlled by religion while science is public. PsychicPowers are classified as scientific even though they share the category "supernatural" with magic in this setting and tend to break all known laws of physics, due to being widely accepted and studied (most espers know exactly what laws their power breaks and how to make the most of that). The really odd thing is that when it comes right down to it, the only difference between the two sides is methods. Espers ''are'' magicians--that's not a snarky reference to MagicByAnyOtherName, they are literally highly specialized magic users who are unable to use any other form of magic. The science side as a whole makes a lot more sense when you remember that modern espers were invented by an [[Creator/AleisterCrowley evil wizard.]]

** In ''LightNovel/FateZero'', it is shown that elder magi don't like to rely on technology (despite a character from the ''VisualNovel/FateStayNight'' stating that it is more efficient than magecraft). One of the protagonists uses this for maximum effect, complementing his comparatively poor magecraft with sniper rifles and landmines.
** In ''LightNovel/TheGardenOfSinners'', Touko states that mages believe that even ''explaining'' how their own particular brand of magic works weakens it. ("Mystery" and "Weird" used to be far stronger words than they are now.) Whether this is true or not isn't shown.

* Downplayed in the crossover between ''LetsPlay/EmpiresSMP'' Season 2 and ''LetsPlay/{{Hermitcraft|Server}}'' Season 9, with ''Empires'' representing the Magic side of the equation and ''Hermitcraft'' representing the Science side. The Hermits tend to use more industrialized and technologically advanced redstone contraptions for resource farms, demonstrated most prominently by the mass amounts of resources in Hermitopia, the Hermits' outpost on the Empires server. On the other hand, the Empires rulers tend to use smaller scales of production and have access to powerful magical/supernatural abilities, with Empires-False and her DieselPunk empire Cogsmeade being the main exception [[spoiler:due to Empires-False being originally from Hermitcraft]]. It's downplayed in that while there is a mild rivalry[[note]]In that the Hermits' large-scale resource farms posed a threat to the monopolies and bartering economy of the Empires server[[/note]], the rulers and Hermits are capable at adapting to new environments when switching servers and collaborating with each other towards shared goals.