History Main / AthensAndSparta

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* France has its two largest cities, Paris and Marseille. Paris, for all its flaws, is the greatest political and cultural center in the country, which makes it Athens. Marseille, while equally rich in history and actually more ancient than Paris, is Sparta, with its friendlier but also more aggressive social culture and high levels of delinquence. This trope is often exacerbated by soccer fans, as the PSG (''Paris Saint-Germain'') and the OM (''Olympique de Marseille'') are the two teams with the greatest rivalry in the country. The trope was also exacerbated during the UsefulNotes/COVID19Pandemic, as one of the most vocal supporter of [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroquine_and_hydroxychloroquine_during_the_COVID-19_pandemic hydroxychloroquine as a remedy against COVID]] was Didier Raoult, a French microbiologist at the head of a medical training and research facility located in Marseille. As the efficiency of this remedy was more and more challenged by various researches, supporters of this medicine had been heard dismissing studies concluding against hydroxychloroquine's efficiency as being motivated by the Paris-Marseille rivalry.[[note]]Depending on criteria, some prefer counting Lyon as the second French major city and Marseille as the third one, but Lyon (another city with a very rich and ancient history, doubling as a cultural center and the culinary capital city of the country) fits better as another Athens than as Sparta.[[/note]]

* France has its two largest cities, Paris and Marseille. Paris, for all its flaws, is the greatest political and cultural center in the country, which makes it Athens. Marseille, while equally rich in history and actually more ancient than Paris, is Sparta, with its friendlier but also more aggressive social culture and high levels of delinquence. This trope is often exacerbated by soccer fans, as the PSG (''Paris Saint-Germain'') and the OM (''Olympique de Marseille'') are the two teams with the greatest rivalry in the country.

* ''VideoGame/PokemonRedAndBlue'' has the rivalry between the Fighting (martial artist trainers) and Psychic (trainers with psychic powers)-type gyms, with the Psychic gym having handily won the title of official gym.

* ''Literature/{{Dune}}'' gives us Caladan (Athens) and Geidi Prime (Sparta). Caladan is a bit harsh and primal, but still beautiful, covered in vast oceans, has a somewhat Mediterranean climate, and is ruled by the just and fair House Atreides. Geidi Prime is an industrial hellhole ruled by the sadistic and hedonistic Harkonens. The visual design on the [[Film/Dune1984 David Lynch film]] really drives the point home. The prequel novels reveal that this wasn't always the case. Prior to the Butlerian Jihad, Geidi Prime was fairly green and pleasant, and Xavier Harkonen expressed a desire to settle down there one day. Then it suffered a ColonyDrop and, eventually, became the seat of power for House Harkonen (they initially only had the icy world of Lankiveil) and heavily industrialized.

* ''VideoGame/GrandTheftAutoSanAndreas'' compares Los Santos with San Fierro. Los Santos is a gang-ridden city filled with UrbanSegregation with limited social opportunities and advancement, while San Fierro has less of a gang-presence, is much more developed and sophisticated and is the city where the hero achieves some kind of social mobility (legal and illegal), while also interacting with a real UsefulNotes/MeltingPot and weird bunch of RagtagBunchOfMisfits.

* The [[TropeNamer Trope namer]] is the real life rivalry between ancient Athens and ancient Sparta. Nowadays, their rivalry has ended: modern UsefulNotes/{{Athens}} is the capital and largest city of UsefulNotes/{{Greece}}, while modern Sparta is a town in the rural Peloponnese with little choice but to yield to Athens's dominance (Modern Sparta plays ''fifth'' fiddle in today's Peloponnese, behind not only illustrious names like Corinth but also towns that barely existed in ancient times like Kalamata and Tripolis).
** In Modern UsefulNotes/{{Greece}}, UsefulNotes/{{Athens}} seems to be at odds with its Co-capital, Thessaloniki, a rivalry which itself is parodied over and over again in Greek media, due to both of them being the biggest and most powerful cities of the country.

* The [[TropeNamer Trope namer]] is the real life rivalry between ancient Athens and ancient Sparta. Nowadays, their rivalry has ended: modern UsefulNotes/{{Athens}} is the capital and largest city of UsefulNotes/{{Greece}}, while modern Sparta is a town in the rural Peloponnese with little choice but to yield to Athens's dominance. (Modern Sparta plays ''fifth'' fiddle in today's Peloponnese, behind not only illustrious names like Corinth but also towns that barely existed in ancient times like Kalamata and Tripolis.)

See also ElvesVersusDwarves for when this conflict is extended to entire species.

* The [[TropeNamer Trope namer]] is the real life rivalry between ancient Athens and ancient Sparta. Nowadays, their rivalry has ended and Modern Sparta has accepted Modern UsefulNotes/{{Athens}} as the capital and largest city of UsefulNotes/{{Greece}}.

* The [[TropeNamer Trope namer]] is the real life rivalry between ancient Athens and ancient Sparta.
** In actual practice, both cities had [[NotSoDifferent more in common than either wouild have liked to admit]]. Both were built on slavery and both were militarily expansionist great powers who thought nothing of sacking weaker nations (like the Island of Melos). Athens' idea of democracy was restricted to men from native born families, who were expected to lead the armies (aristoi) and said to possess "the best qualities"/arete (from which we get the word [[AristocratsAreEvil aristokratia]] -- [[TheSocialDarwinist Power of the Best]]). Later authors and historians noted that, on some level, the Spartans are more admirable because [[AtLeastIAdmitIt they didn't pretend]] they weren't a brutal slave-driven society, unlike the Athenians who saw themselves as promoting freedom. Spartans likewise had a greater role for women in society, whereas in Athens, women weren't even allowed the rights to public assembly, aside from prostitutes. Though it is worth mentioning that there wasn't a rite of passage in Athens involving murdering slaves out at night or just strong looking ones working in the fields.
** Likewise, [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconophilia many Athenian philosophers]] admired Sparta. Some of them, such as Creator/{{Xenophon}}, fought for Sparta against Athens during the Peloponnesian Wars. Some of the Spartan ideas of organizing society and the way they taught their elites, inspired England's Public School system, the Ivy League, and philosophers like Creator/NiccoloMachiavelli and Creator/JeanJacquesRousseau, who noted that whatever their flaws, Sparta's system lasted longer and was more stable than Athens'. Then again, even the brightest minds of their time [[NotSoAboveItAll made mistakes]].
*** The only exception was Creator/{{Aristotle}}, who criticized every aspect of this culture: from [[HeManWomanHater the luxury that Spartan women received in comparison to other city-states]] to the constant [[SlaveRevolt revolts of the helots]] that occured there.
*** Heck, even UsefulNotes/AlexanderHamilton [[TakeThat made fun]] of the [[TheSpartanWay ''laconophilia'']] of his era and called it unrealistic:
--> '''UsefulNotes/AlexanderHamilton''': [[TakeThat We may preach till we are tired of the theme, the necessity of disinterestedness in republics, without making a single proselyte. The virtuous declaimer will neither persuade himself nor any other person to be content with a double mess of porridge, instead of a reasonable stipend for his services. We might as soon reconcile ourselves to the Spartan community of goods and wives, to their iron coin, their long beards, or their Black soup. There is a total dissimulation in the circumstances, as well as the manners, of society among us; and it is as ridiculous to seek for models in the simple ages of Greece and Rome, as it would be to go in quest of them among the Hottentots and Laplanders]].
*** This comment isn't as flattering as it sounds. UsefulNotes/AdolfHitler (yes, that [[UsefulNotes/AdolfHitler '''ADOLF HITLER''']], for example, was a huge admirer of TheSpartanWay. Just like them, he emphasised military self-discipline and recommended that Germany should imitate them by limiting "the number allowed to live". After the invasion of the USSR, Hitler insisted that the Slavs should be treated like the helots under the Spartans: "They [the Spartans] came as conquerors, and they took everything", and so should the Germans. A Nazi officer specified that "the Germans would have to assume the position of the Spartiates, while... the Russians were the Helots." [[{{Squick}} Yikes…]]
** Bear in mind that Athens self-consciously styled itself as civilized and [[UnreliableNarrator they are the source of all of our information about themselves and their neighbors]]. The Athenians famously derided foreigners despite their city being celebrated by Pericles as a "[[UsefulNotes/MeltingPot School of Hellas]]" and filled with foreigners. They used a word to describe all non-Athenians, ''barbarian'', because to them all non-Athenians sounded like {{Funny Foreigner}}s (their languages were mocked as nonsense like "bar-bar-bar", i.e. BlackSpeech).
** In the short term, the Spartans won UsefulNotes/ThePeloponnesianWar, but Sparta was eventually defeated by Thebes at the Battle of Leuctra, and the occupying Thebans freed many helots and slave runaways. Sparta resisted conquest and subjugation by the Macedonians (under Philip II and UsefulNotes/AlexanderTheGreat) but this meant that they famously played no role in the Alexandrian-Hellenistic era[[note]]Alexander famously noted before his invasion of Persia, that he was marching as "the son of Philip II and all the Greeks, except the Spartans"[[/note]]. Athens, under conquest, flourished in the Hellenistic and Roman era, remaining a major student town until Late Antiquity, and becoming the modern capital of Greece. Sparta was DemotedToExtra, becoming a theme park for Romans who saw Spartan rites and manliness as a kind of professional wrestling sports entertainment of antiquity, and saw TheSpartanWay as the province of circus freaks. The modern city was rebuilt in 1834 and while Sparta now acknowledges Athens as the capital of Greece (King of Bavaria Ludwig I was a great admirer of UsefulNotes/AncientGreece explicitly chose it for its glorious history as the cradle of Hellenic Civilization), the ancient rivalry continues in politics and sports. Modern Athens is more liberal allowing them to [[BecomingTheMask better resemble the city the ancient Athenians presented themselves as]], while Modern Sparta is more conservative.
** Despite Sparta being far more popular to the modern culture, the Athenians were the most influential of the two, with inventions like democracy, theater and philosophy still being admired to this day. Creator/MaryRenault (author of several historical books set in UsefulNotes/AncientGreece) actually preferred them more than the Spartans. Although she does give praise to the former's courage and patriotism, she isn't very fond of them for their close-mindedness and believes that Athenian values (freedom of the speech and independence of the thought) are the reason being the Greeks' victory in the UsefulNotes/GrecoPersianWars. Most Greeks who lived in the Alexandrian-Hellenistic era preferred to read, write and talk with the attic dialect that Athens utilised. Not to mention the fact that the former president of the United States, Barack Obama, praised Ancient Athens (and generally, Greece) for the greatest government that democracy is.

** In actual practice, both cities had [[NotSoDifferent more in common than either wouild have liked to admit]]. Both were built on slavery and both were militarily expansionist great powers who thought nothing of sacking weaker nations (like the Island of Melos). Athens' idea of democracy was restricted to men from native born families, who were expected to lead the armies (aristoi) and said to possess "the best qualities"/arete (from which we get the word [[AristocratsAreEvil aristokratia]] -- [[TheSocialDarwinist Power of the Best]]). Later authors and historians noted that, on some level, the Spartans are more admirable because [[AtLeastIAdmitIt they didn't pretend]] they weren't a brutal slave-driven society, unlike the Athenians who saw themselves as promoting freedom. Spartans likewise had a greater role for women in society, whereas in Athens, women weren't even allowed the rights to public assembly, aside from prostitutes.

*** This comment isn't as flattering as it sounds. UsefulNotes/AdolfHitler, for example, was a huge admirer of TheSpartanWay. Just like them, he emphasised military self-discipline and recommended that Germany should imitate them by limiting "the number allowed to live". After the invasion of the USSR, Hitler insisted that the Slavs should be treated like the helots under the Spartans: "They [the Spartans] came as conquerors, and they took everything", and so should the Germans. A Nazi officer specified that "the Germans would have to assume the position of the Spartiates, while... the Russians were the Helots."
** In the short term, the Spartans won UsefulNotes/ThePeloponnesianWar, but Sparta was eventually defeated by Thebes at the Battle of Leuctra, and the occupying Thebans freed many helots and slave runaways. Sparta resisted conquest and subjugation by the Macedonians (under Philip II and UsefulNotes/AlexanderTheGreat) but this meant that they famously played no role in the Alexandrian-Hellenistic era[[note]]Alexander famously noted before his invasion of Persia, that he was marching as "the son of Philip II and all the Greeks, except the Spartans"[[/note]]. Athens, under conquest, flourished in the Hellenistic and Roman era, remaining a major student town until Late Antiquity, and becoming the modern capital of Greece. Sparta was DemotedToExtra, becoming a theme park for Romans who saw Spartan rites and manliness as a kind of professional wrestling sports entertainment of antiquity, and saw TheSpartanWay as the province of circus freaks. The modern city was rebuilt in 1834 and while Sparta now acknowledges Athens as the capital of Greece, the ancient rivalry continues in politics and sports. Modern Athens is more liberal allowing them to [[BecomingTheMask better resemble the city the ancient Athenians presented themselves as]], while Modern Sparta is more conservative, but even the conservative modern Spartans would be more liberal compared to Ancient Athenians.
** Despite Sparta being far more popular to the modern culture, the Athenians were the most influential of the two, with inventions like democracy, theater and philosophy still being admired to this day. Creator/MaryRenault (author of several historical books set in UsefulNotes/AncientGreece) actually preferred them more than the Spartans. Although she does give praise to the former's courage and patriotism, she isn't very fond of them for their close-mindedness and believes that Athenian values (freedom of the speech and independence of the thought) are the reason being the Greeks' victory in the UsefulNotes/GrecoPersianWars. Most Greeks who lived in the Alexandrian-Hellenistic era preferred to read, write and talk with the attic dialect that Athens utilised. Not to mention the fact that the former president of the United States, Barack Obama, praised Ancient Athens (and generally, Greece) for the greatest policy that democracy is.

** Likewise, [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconophilia many Athenian philosophers]] admired Sparta. Some of them, such as Creator/{{Xenophon}}, fought for Sparta against Athens during the Peloponnesian Wars. Some of the Spartan ideas of organizing society and the way they taught their elites, inspired England's Public School system, the Ivy League, and philosophers like Creator/NiccoloMachiavelli and Creator/JeanJacquesRousseau, who noted that whatever their flaws, Sparta's system lasted longer and was more stable than Athens'.

** Bear in mind that Athens self-consciously styled itself as civilized and they are the source of all of our information about themselves and their neighbors. The Athenians famously derided foreigners despite their city being celebrated by Pericles as a "[[UsefulNotes/MeltingPot School of Hellas]]" and filled with foreigners. They used a word to describe all non-Athenians, ''barbarian'', because to them all non-Athenians sounded like {{Funny Foreigner}}s (their languages were mocked as nonsense like "bar-bar-bar", i.e. BlackSpeech).

** Despite Sparta being far more popular to the modern culture, the Athenians were the most influential of the two, with inventions like Democracy, Theatre and Philosophy still being admired to this day. Creator/MaryRenault (author of several historical books set in UsefulNotes/AncientGreece) actually preferred them more than the Spartans. Although she does praises the formers' courage and patriotism, she isn't very fond of them for their close-mindedness and believes that Athenian values (freedom of the speech and independence of the thought) are the reason being the Greeks' victory in the UsefulNotes/GrecoPersianWars. Most Greeks who lived in the Alexandrian-Hellenistic era preferred to read, write and talk with the attic dialect that Athens utilised. Not to mention the fact that the former president of the United States, Barrack Obama, praised Ancient Athens (and generally, Greece) for the greatest policy that Democracy is.

* The UsefulNotes/PunicWars pitted UsefulNotes/TheRomanRepublic against Carthage. Both of them were expansionist city-states with client-kingdoms. The only sources for the conflict come down from Roman historians, who as a rule tended to paint Rome as the civilized land of virtue, patriotism and military glory and they loathed Carthage and its population, who they painted as "barbarians" (their word to describe all non-Romans, be they Italian, Gallic, Gothic, Britannic, Persian or anything else). The Romans noted that the Carthaginians practiced HumanSacrifice of children, of which we apparently have some archaeological evidence but it is highly disputed. Likewise, the Romans, as per Livy, themselves performed HumanSacrifice after their defeat at the Battle of Cannae but Livy is sure to remind us that [[SuspiciouslySpecificDenial this is the last time it happened]].
** Roman writers went on about how Roman glory was built on citizen soldiers while Hannibal's army was composed largely of mercenaries. Indeed Carthage's Merchant Oligarchy hired mercenaries and clients to fight their wars for them, and Roman victory was because of its ideology and patriotism and their ability to subvert or annex Carthaginian allies. So in a certain sense, Carthage is the Athens to Rome's Sparta... the former is a sophisticated, worldly, commercial society while the latter is a military-driven society bound by strong ideology. Likewise, Carthage, like Athens, was primarily a naval power, while the Romans were largely and mainly a land army like the Spartans.

** Arguably deconstructed, similarly to the original Athens and Sparta. While Saudi Arabia may be the wealthier nation, the lack of freedom and the sheer amount of human rights violations in the country is on par with, if not even ''worse'' than, its northern Shia rival. In fact, only recently did the country allow women to drive thanks to the policies of the new prince Mohammed bin Salman [[BreadAndCircuses (who more or less only permitted them for publicity)]]. Overall, it is just another brutal theocratic dictatorship no different from Iran but it gets better treatment from the rest of the world because of American propaganda.

** The East Coast and the West Coast, particularly in and around the metro areas of the large coastal cities like Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Boston, New York, Philadelphia, and Washington D.C, together can be seen as the Athens to the rest of the United States Sparta. The Coastal states particularly the cites are rich centers of culture, while other regions tend to struggle a lot more with money and are generally seen as backwaters. A rule of thumb is that any part of the country that Republicans call 'Coastal Elites' are the Athens, while parts inhabited by 'deplorable redneck gun nuts' are the Sparta.
** In general, American liberals have proudly seen themselves as "sophisticated, wise, educated" Athens over the "crude war-mongers" of the other side while American conservatives have proudly seen themselves as "tough, practical, effective" Sparta over the "decadent dilettantes" of the other side, regardless of which party is conservative and which party is liberal that era.

* ''Literature/{{Dune}}'' gives us Caladan (Athens) and Geidi Prime (Sparta). Caladan is a bit harsh and primal, but still beautiful, covered in vast oceans, has a somewhat Mediterranean climate, and is ruled by the just and fair House Atreides. Geidi Prime is an industrial hellhole ruled by the sadistic and hedonistic Harkonens. The visual design on the [[Film/{{Dune}} David Lynch film]] really drives the point home. The prequel novels reveal that this wasn't always the case. Prior to the Butlerian Jihad, Geidi Prime was fairly green and pleasant, and Xavier Harkonen expressed a desire to settle down there one day. Then it suffered a ColonyDrop and, eventually, became the seat of power for House Harkonen (they initially only had the icy world of Lankiveil) and heavily industrialized.

* ComicBook/{{Democracy}} features these two cities as a {{Foil}} to each other. Sparta is a close, oligarchic and militaristic polis who runs through fear, while Athens is far more open and is depicted taking its first steps into forming a politics that would be praised and adapted in the future generations, which leads to her eventual rise.

* ComicBook/{{Democracy}} features these two cities. While it doesn't focus on their animosity, WordOfGod has stated [[AllThereInTheManual that Sparta's region is Foil to Athens']].

* ''Tabletopgame/Warhammer40K'':

** Despite Sparta being far more popular to the modern culture, the Athenians were the most influential of the two, with inventions like Democracy, Theatre and Philosophy still being admired to this day. Most Greeks who lived in the Alexandrian-Hellenistic era preferred to read, write and talk with the attic dialect that Athens utilised. Not to mention the fact that the former president of the United States, Barrack Obama, praised Ancient Athens (and generally, Greece) for the greatest policy that Democracy was.

** Arguably deconstructed, similarly to the original Athens and Sparta. While Saudi Arabia may be the wealthier nation, the lack of freedom and the sheer amount of human rights violations in the country is on par with, if not even worse than, its northern Shia rival. In fact, only recently did the country allow women to drive thanks to the policies of the new prince Mohammed bin Salman [[BreadAndCircuses (who more or less only permitted them for publicity)]]. Overall, it is just another brutal theocratic dictatorship no different from Iran.