History Headscratchers / WerewolfTheApocalypse

** The Wyld is the creative and changing force of the Triat, but it's also reflected in and tied with untamed nature, which tends to be pretty violent itself. And the destructive allies of the Wyld tend to be more destructive in a "natural" sense of predation, population control, etc. than the "maintaining the cosmic balance and destroying that which is flawed and has no place" sense that the Wyrm once presided over or the "wanton cruelty, torture, and random acts of violence" of the modern Wyrm. Granted, Red Talons at least have been descending more and more into the latter, but it's explicitly stated that they're in danger of falling to the Wyrm because of this.

** If the mother is a Lupus-breed Garou or the equivalent for other changing breeds, the offspring is ''always'' that changing breed or kinfolk. If both parents are Homid, it can go either way, with the scale tipping towards whoever has higher Pure Breed.

** Well it really depends. A Garou mating with another Changer either fails to result in pregnancy or a kinfolk of the mother's breed. Between one shifter and one kinfolk, it'd be the mother's breed if the mother was the shifter, or whoever had the higher Pure Breed otherwise. However the offspring will always belong to just one changing breed period, there is no such thing as a hybrid shifter.

* Write-ups on the planetary Incarna suggest that (with the exception of Rorg's realm) the Wyrm has largely left the other planets alone. Why has the Wyrm focuses so much of its efforts on Gaia while ignoring the other planets? It can't be soley because of Gaia's richness of life, because Tambiyah's realm (Venus) is lush and verdant in the Umbra, for instance.

* Spirals may be insane but they're not stupid enough to avoid such simple measures as investing in acoustics to stop humans from investigating and discrete entrances so nobody notices the supplies (weapons being irrelevant since they're already nine-feet-tall mobile death machines), the same way Gaian Garou hide urban caern's. A hive in a city is going to have it's entrance hidden in places humans don't frequent or inside buildings, so even if your average human sees someone moving boxes into a building he's not going to think twice about what's going on in there compared to another other building in the city, and sound is going to have a hard time escaping to street-level anyway. For a rural Hive it's far enough away from any population centre that your average human who gets close is going to be on their own and easy to grab and take back as that night's dinner/Soul-raped into getting a Bane and sent off to fight for the Wyrm. As for Gaian Garou, they are constantly outnumbered by the Spirals who have no issue with Metis and any Gaian Garou who get too close will get ambushed and either get killed, converted or turned into Brood Mares to make more Metis to further advance their numbers advantage. And that's assuming they can locate the general area of the hive from the Wyrm's efforts to spread it's corruption everywhere.

----

* Garou are expected to take a (preferrably kinfolk) mate and breed at some point in their lives. How on earth could a Garou be a halfway decent parent? Their rage means that they would [[{{AbusiveParents}} lash out]] at their offpsirng when faced with the normal frustrations of parenting. Many Garou are so busy fighting the Wyrm that [[{{WhenYouComingHomeDad}} little time is available for raising a family]]. To boot, some homid Garou live on the fringes of human society, so without jobs, how could they even afford to raise children?

* One of the most disturbing aspects of ''TabletopGame/WerewolfTheApocalypse'' is the treatment of Kinfolk, humans who can't shapeshift but carry the recessive gene, meaning their children possibly might be able to. Obviously, werewolf-kinfolk pairings have a greater chance of bearing shapeshifters than either of them getting it on with a {{muggle}}, but the Garou's treatment of Kinfolk borders on arranged marriage at best and rape at worst. It doesn't seem to matter if the kin has other plans, her only purpose in life is to make babies. Perhaps my least-favorite aspect of the game.
** Speaking as a Hunter: the Reckoning fan, I think the treatment of kinfolk -- and the way Werewolf reproduction works in general -- is the single biggest black mark against Werewolves being the good guys of the WoD that they present themselves as, and the single biggest justification for an Imbued slapping some silver shells in his shotgun and going hunting.
*** yeah, cause some mild second class citizen status of their kin is the worst thing they've done... not the culling of humanity, or the extinction they've perpetrated on three different changing breeds that we know of, or the attempted genocide of all the other changing breeds... or all the shit spirals do... I'm not saying I don't like the wolves, I love 'em, but if your looking for petty justification of murder... there's much better things to look at.
**** Seconded. (Also, petty? None of the above reasons sound petty, really.) It's likely that the imbued had no idea about the extinctions/genocides; with their limited interaction and concern for humanity, the only things core hunters seemed to know was the anti-human outlook and the forced mating. I seem to recall at least one example in the Hunter books where the imbued encountered a Kinfolk woman fleeing from her intended husband, obviously terrified and desperate not to go with him; the imbued, if I recall, got their asses kicked pretty well trying to defend her, but I think they managed to bring him down. Since that and the whole 'killing humans is good' thing makes up almost all of the imbued's interactions with the shapeshifters, it's understandable what they'd focus on. After all, the hunter mission-statement is to stop humanity as a whole from being treated as second-class or worse by ''all'' the supernaturals.
**** I should point out that A) Even as a Hunter fan, most of the established Zeal creed hunters were bigots who killed the supernatural soley because they weren't human, B) that the Garou were fighting to stop the destruction of all of reality, which is why they're considered the good guys in the same vein that the Tau can be considered the good guys of 40k because they were the only ones who weren't complete monsters.
**** The Technocracy was ''also'' fighting to save reality, with the added bonus of not killing off Humanity while they're at it. Yet they were generally considered villains. And in any case, you can't say the bigoted hunters didn't have understandable cause: Most of them lost their families to supernatural threats, and a fair number of them were proven right (though their tendency to kill people to end disagreements was really not the smart way to do business).
**** Probably the only unambiguously good faction are the ''Mummy: the Resurrection'' mummies ... which are basically completely off-genre to the rest of the World of Darkness and are more like magical superheroes.
** Incidentally, you should recall that with the way the Old [=WoD=], gamelines weren't exactly 100% crossover-compliant; several Hunter books, including the ''Storyteller's Guide'', noted that unless the GM had specific plans the werewolves of the Hunter-verse were ''not'' Garou-- They were just werewolves who might have shared some traits with the Garou, but for all intents and purposes were simply monsters for the imbued to combat.
*** It was more like the werewolves were not Garou if the Storyteller wanted them not to be. The actual Hunter sourcebook for the Werewolves (The Moonstruck) had several stories with Hunters and Werewolves that were clearly Garou if you knew ''TabletopGame/WerewolfTheApocalypse''. One could easily identify Red Talons, Black Spirals, even one of the Bastet.
*** I seem to recall reading someplace that the designers felt the only unambiguous hero race in oWoD were the resurrected Mummies from Revised. They were genuinely trying to help save the world, and didn't have any of that pesky gray on gray morality going on. The only mark against them was they were a bit alien in their reasoning and ''very'' patient.
*** Also, the Sefeki (Unbandaged Ones) were assholes, but that was comparatively minor. I think that's why I liked the mummies so much (only one sourcebook? A sad panda is me...).
**** Ironically, this might be why my group found the Mummy line boring. Then again, we're all thwarted dramatists at heart...
** On the treatment of Kinfolk: Yeah, it sucks. Even some of the Garou recognise that, especially in the Tribebooks. But it's also arguably needed, as the Garou need all the forces they can get. This is the World of Darkness. [[CrapsackWorld Things are shitty all over.]]
*** There's also the alternative of not keeping them on a tight leash; risk losing them to the Spirals. Who would either drive them insane to work for them or lock them up as actual breeding mares. So it boils down to "be treated like slaves by people who at heart have good intentions" or "be prisoners of a massive death cult and horrifically abused for the entirity of your lifespan, and afterwads your soul gets to go Malfaes where you'll get to be stuck with those guys forever."
*** It's worth noting that this is ''deliberate''; the werewolves are ''not'' good guys. I used to work on the line, and we were all very aware that the werewolves were the gray in a BlackAndGrayMorality world. It's also not exactly subtle: The War of Rage, the extinction of the Bunyip and the overwhelming sense that the Garou could end the threat of the Apocalypse with ease if they'd just friggin' work with each other for a day suggests that. And as proof of the inverse, note that the DiesUltimae camp in Revised Glass Walker suggested the main reason for their rise to power was that they were one of the few to treat kinfolk right.
*** Also the Kinfolk get a much better deal than most half supernaturals in the setting. Compare and contrast with the [[TabletopGame/VampireTheMasquerade Ghouls]] and the [[TabletopGame/DemonTheFallen Thralls]] that are mostly addicts controlled by their dealers. The [[ChangelingTheDreaming Kinain]] are sometimes treated very well and are usually ignored, but Dana help you if a bored Redcap feels like playing. And so forth. At least Kinfolk usually get some of the setup explained to them and most tribes look after their basic needs.
* It bugs me that people focus on the "Kinfolk = baby-making" bit and act like they do nothing else. They're the only way the Garou could interact with the normal world considering that a Garou's rage scares away humans and runs the risk of them suddenly flipping out and going homocidal. Not to mention kinfolk frequent act as guards, medics, babysitters, drivers, lawyers, etc. etc. for the Garou, yet people still focus on the baby making part.
** Because that's a logical fallacy. All the good in the world doesn't mean we have to ignore the really screwed-up parts. They're still there.
*** Except I'm not talking about ignoring that part, I'm talking about how there are plenty of people who act as if that's the only thing kinfolk do, like they spent 24/7 being studs/breeding mares. It's not a logical fallacy since I'm not saying to ignore that part, I'm saying people should regonise they do so much more for the Garou than that.
***** You're confusing a hang-up for over generalizing. Nobody is going to doubt that the Kinfolk have numerous purposes that make them both an attractive addition to the setting and add a bit more of a human angle to the world. But people get hung up on the fact that Werewolves essentially have love bunnies they can force to do whatever they basically want if they so damn well choose. When it boils down to brass tacks Kinfolk are basically there to provide a viable method for Werewolves to breed. It's like getting mad that people fixate on ghouls only being used to protect vampires during the day.

* Anyway what I want to address is the above poster that mentions pyschological knowledge. In the setting the newly changed Lupus Garou have one husge advantage over Feral Children in that like all Garou their able to speak the Garou Tongue from the get go. This is a massive advantage over Feral Children as their able to communicate with others. If you want to know more there's a TON of this kinda info in the Revised Red Talon book that pretty much addresses a lot of Lupus Questions. And yeah I'm pissed off they were cut from the New World of Darkness Books. Them and Metis.
** The books do assume lupus get supernatural boosts to their adaptation to the garou/human culture. Lupus seem quite able to adapt to human culture,if they so desire and want.
** You mean the Angst Babies? Wasn't sorry to see them go either.
*** Oh, so you prefer murderous foetus ghosts? Oh yeah, much better...
*** "[[FetusTerrible Murderous foetus ghosts]]" provide a much better impetus for not engaging in spiritual incest. At one point, Ethan Skemp (the head developer) actually said that even [[HomosexualReproduction gay couples were not immune]]. Like most people, he also thought [[InterspeciesRomance zoophilia]] is just plain freakish, much less the idea of literal human-wolf crossbreeds or the Garou's policy of mandated breeding, which motivated him to write in the metaplot that new Garou had stopped being born.
** I am fairly certain that Lupus don't know the Garou tongue from the getgo. It's stated quite clearly that the language was created by the Fianna and you learn it during your training.
*** No, the fianna cultivated it, but every garou knows the basic words from it, because of their ancestral heritage. Skill to speak fluently in it could be said to be result of training.

* Garou are expected to take a (preferrably kinfolk) mate and breed at some point in their lives. How on earth could a Garou be a halfway decent parent? Their rage means that they would lash out at their offpsirng when faced with the normal frustrations of parenting. Many Garou are so busy fighting the Wyrm that little time is available for raising a family. To boot, some homid Garou live on the fringes of human society, so without jobs, how could they even afford to raise children?

** Speaking as a Hunter: the Reckoning fan, this troper thinks the treatment of kinfolk -- and the way Werewolf reproduction works in general -- is the single biggest black mark against Werewolves being the good guys of the WoD that they present themselves as, and the single biggest justification for an Imbued slapping some silver shells in his shotgun and going hunting.

**** Seconded. (Also, petty? None of the above reasons sound petty, really.) It's likely that the imbued had no idea about the extinctions/genocides; with their limited interaction and concern for humanity, the only things core hunters seemed to know was the anti-human outlook and the forced mating. This Troper seems to recall at least one example in the Hunter books where the imbued encountered a Kinfolk woman fleeing from her intended husband, obviously terrified and desperate not to go with him; the imbued, if I recall, got their asses kicked pretty well trying to defend her, but I think they managed to bring him down. Since that and the whole 'killing humans is good' thing makes up almost all of the imbued's interactions with the shapeshifters, it's understandable what they'd focus on. After all, the hunter mission-statement is to stop humanity as a whole from being treated as second-class or worse by ''all'' the supernaturals.

**** Ironically, this might be why this troper's group found the Mummy line boring. Then again, we're all thwarted dramatists at heart...

*** It's worth noting that this is ''deliberate''; the werewolves are ''not'' good guys. ThisTroper used to work on the line, and we were all very aware that the werewolves were the gray in a BlackAndGrayMorality world. It's also not exactly subtle: The War of Rage, the extinction of the Bunyip and the overwhelming sense that the Garou could end the threat of the Apocalypse with ease if they'd just friggin' work with each other for a day suggests that. And as proof of the inverse, note that the DiesUltimae camp in Revised Glass Walker suggested the main reason for their rise to power was that they were one of the few to treat kinfolk right.

** The whole mess of Lupus Garou not to mention tons of psychological knowledge in the real world about how children raised as feral or by animals fit into human society (spoilers:not very damn well) is probably why this aspect was rightfully excised in the New World of Darkness. They could have side-stepped this issue, I think, by simply stating that wolves in the WorldOfDarkness were actually sentient and linguistic creatures who had been hiding their nature from humans (think WolfsRain) but they didn't.

*** Also the Kinfolk get a much better deal than most half supernaturals in the setting. Compare and contrast with the [[TabletopGame/VampireTheMasquerade Ghouls]] and the [[DemonTheFallen Thralls]] that are mostly addicts controlled by their dealers. The [[ChangelingTheDreaming Kinain]] are sometimes treated very well and are usually ignored, but Dana help you if a bored Redcap feels like playing. And so forth. At least Kinfolk usually get some of the setup explained to them and most tribes look after their basic needs.