History Headscratchers / RevolutionaryGirlUtena

* What the hell is going on in The Movie?
** In a broad sense, it's a compressed retelling of the TV series that uses some extra over-the-top new symbolism. Utena is the vehicle for Anthy's escape from the closed world of the school...literally.
* In the car chase at the end of the movie, during the car chase, the other duelists show up riding a truck that is apparently Wakaba. Why was she changed into a car?
** She chose to turn into a car, to order to help Utena escape.
* In the movie, how is Utena the 'winner' when she hasn't beaten Miki yet? Also, how did Touga plan to 'win' the duels when he's dead?
** Time constraints aside, I think that winning some arbitary tournament by beating every possible opponent is besides the point. In the movie-manga, Touga says that Utena is the "chosen prince" (i.e. the winner) because she was the only one who could open Anthy's heart; in the actual movie, it's something like that plus the fact that Utena can still accept Anthy even while knowing her darkest secrets. As for Touga himself, although he's dead, don't forget he still has enough physical presence to have sex with Shiori, among other things. Miki obviously doesn't even know him here, but it seems Juri at least knows ''of'' him (even if it's just as the boy who died saving her) so it's feasible that he could've been able to duel with her; it's also never said either way whether or not Saionji knows him in this continuity, so there's another possibility. Furthermore, it's worth bearing in mind that the duels seem to be secret in this 'verse, as Juri was surprised that Shiori knew about them, so it's not like Touga would be doing it in any kind of public view anyway. (Which then begs the question of how come Utena and Juri were duelling in public view later on, but presumably the random onlookers didn't understand what they were watching on the same level as the duelists, for want of better wording.)
* That ridiculous theory that in the movie, Miki ''kills'' Kozue. There is no supporting evidence for it at all, yet it still seems fairly popular. This is ''Miki'' we're talking about, the boy who's desperate to hold onto his innocence.
** Miki's quite a different character in the movie. He definitely had a hand in turning Kozue into a car.
*** Is there any evidence how he is different? Kozue turned into a car because of jealousy over Miki, maybe, but all the characters in the movie are (barring Touga) still essentially the same as in the series. Utena still strives to be a prince, Anthy is still a miserable StepfordSmiler, Akio is still a ManipulativeBastard, albeit more pathetic, and Miki is still the pure individual who helps Utena and Anthy in the end, and tries to break the news to Kozue about how he can't constantly spend time with her in the nicest way possible. His little "I want to gain power for myself" speech was obviously a lie, considering at every shot in that scene we see symbols of Kozue. He wants that power to revolutionize the world to help Kozue, not for himself. He would not intentionally hurt her in any way.
*** Movie!Miki can come off as someone who wants to distance himself from Kozue (or perhaps more accurately, he wants to distance himself from his childhood and grow up), and so he wants "power" for that, though he still does care about his sister. Perhaps Kozue turning into a car is a bit like her becoming a Black Rose duellist; wasn't series!Kozue in the elevator upset about how Miki was drifting away from her? It's more-or-less the same thing here. Then again, some tend to think of the kinds of cars that Kozue and Shiori become as being analogous to Black Rose duellists, even if movie!Shiori acts like she's basically permalocked in Black Rose mode anyway.
*** Even if he wants distance, there's still a huge, unsupported leap of logic to go from "he wants independence" to "he murdered his sister in cold blood." Especially since turning into a car in no way means death whatsoever. Wakaba turns into a car and is fine, Utena turns into one and is fine. And even as a car, Shiori is conscious.
** Just a theory, maybe Miki panicked after Kozue put the blade on his neck, flailed and Kozue fell and hit her head. Or something like that, a huge quantity of accidents happen in the bath after all... and the reason he is at Ohtori is that he feels guilty about Kozue's death. Or maybe the one that died first was Miki (razors are NOT toys) and Kozue commited suicide, then again the academy seems a place the dead can walk.

** Akio uses [[TookTheWifesName his fiancée's surname]] instead of his birth surname (his birth name is presumably Akio Himemiya, but one can only infer this), however this raises the question of why he does so, given that he and Kanae aren't married yet.

* Why do Anthy and Akio have different surnames?

* About episode 26: Why is Anthy with Miki's father when he calls him? Is Anthy really his mistress? Or was she just pulling some kind of [[RealityWarper reality warping]] power to manipulate Miki? Or is there a more mundane explaination, like Miki and Kozue's future stepmother being [[IdenticalStranger extremely similar]] to Anthy?

* If Mikage was attracted Tokiko, why [[spoiler: in his memories/delusions]] is he with her brother Mamiya? In a memory he did seek out Mamiya alone, but what gives? Is he attracted to them both or is Mamiya just a replacement goldfish?

** Mikage is like an Utena-gone-wrong parallel figure - Mamiya is envisioned as Anthy-like with the dark skin/purple hair, even as he is [[spoiler:Japanese in appearance when the truth comes out later in the episode]], and then the older sister is an Akio figure foreshadowing [[spoiler: Utena's close bond with Anthy versus her heteronormative attraction/competition to Akio.]]

* If Anthy had [[spoiler: jumped off the roof]], would it had have any effect? Her nature clearly doesn't just extend to long life - she doesn't even bleed [[spoiler: when taking the Swords of Hate.]] Or could she only die by choice?
** It's possible that she didn't die from that because it was part of the ritual while [[spoiler: jumping]] might be more permanent. The Black Rose duelists certainly ''seemed'' to think they could kill her (although given Mikage's mentality that might not be certain).

** Whether or not she ''can'' die is kinda besides the point in that scene; the point is that [[spoiler:she ''wants'' to die]]. In other words, the intent is more important than whether it's actually possible.
** Anthy might have been trying to [[spoiler: ''spare'' Utena from the trials ahead. Even if the fall didn't kill her, Utena would have ''thought'' she was dead, and would have no reason to stay in Ohtori and duel Akio.]]

** He ''was'' acting. The only reasons Touga protected Utena were [[spoiler: 1. To make himself look like a prince to Utena, and 2. To have an excuse to expel Saionji.]] Keep in mind Akio and Touga are in contact with each other, and whatever Akio says, goes. He wants Saionji gone, Touga's wound is just an excuse for that.
*** Although Akio may have called for it, clearly he didn't dictate all the details. Touga replies (to a question on the phone we can't hear) with [[spoiler: "Well, I suppose I have a flair for the dramatic."]], implying he'd been told a goal, but had leeway on the method.
* [[spoiler:If Tsuwabuki could draw both Nanami's sword and knife for his Black Rose duel, why would Nanami only get the sword in the third arc?]]
** [[spoiler: One cool interpretation is that the knife represents Nanami's utter dependence on Touga, like how Tsuwabuki's life is entirely wrapped up in worship of Nanami, which is why they both fought with two blades. By the time of Nanami's second duel she's been forced to throw that dependence away because she's realized Touga isn't, and never was, there for her, doesn't love her, and she's completely on her own. Hence, one sword.]]

* In the car chase at the end of the movie, during the car chase, the other duelists show up riding a truck that [[spoiler: Is apparently Wakaba.]] Why was she changed into a car?

* In the movie, how is Utena the 'winner' when she hasn't beaten Miki yet? Also, how did Touga plan to 'win' the duels when [[spoiler: he's dead?]]
** Time constraints aside, I think that winning some arbitary tournament by beating every possible opponent is besides the point. In the movie-manga, Touga says that Utena is the "chosen prince" (i.e. the winner) because she was the only one who could open Anthy's heart; in the actual movie, it's something like that plus the fact that Utena can still accept Anthy even while knowing her darkest secrets. As for Touga himself, [[spoiler:although he's dead, don't forget he still has enough physical presence to have sex with Shiori, among other things. Miki obviously doesn't even know him here, but it seems Juri at least knows ''of'' him (even if it's just as the boy who died saving her) so it's feasible that he could've been able to duel with her; it's also never said either way whether or not Saionji knows him in this continuity, so there's another possibility.]] Furthermore, it's worth bearing in mind that the duels seem to be secret in this 'verse, as Juri was surprised that Shiori knew about them, so it's not like Touga would be doing it in any kind of public view anyway. (Which then begs the question of how come Utena and Juri were duelling in public view later on, but presumably the random onlookers didn't understand what they were watching on the same level as the duelists, for want of better wording.)

*** Is there any evidence how he is different? Kozue turned into a car because of jealousy over Miki, maybe, but all the characters in the movie are (barring Touga) still essentially the same as in the series. Utena still strives to be a prince, Anthy is still [[spoiler: a miserable StepfordSmiler]], Akio is still [[spoiler: a ManipulativeBastard]], albeit more pathetic, and Miki is still the pure individual who helps Utena and Anthy in the end, and tries to break the news to Kozue about how he can't constantly spend time with her in the nicest way possible. His little "I want to gain power for myself" speech was obviously a lie, considering at every shot in that scene we see symbols of Kozue. He wants that power to revolutionize the world to help Kozue, not for himself. He would not intentionally hurt her in any way.

* If only Akio and Anthy [[spoiler: remember the Black Rose events]], then how is Saionji back in school? Sure, Akio probably arranged it, along with everything else, but I'd at least expect a handwave about how Saionji remembers it going.

** A reverse of NoOntologicalInertia, maybe? It may simply be that, even though [[spoiler:Mikage]] was declared RetGone, the consequences of his actions remained. Saionji still crashed at Wakaba's, still arrived at a backdoor deal to get back in, and still was reinstated into the Student Council. It's just that the involved parties were a little bit different in the new continuity.
* Questions about episode 37 about the infamous Cantarella scene in which Anthy and Utena both claim to have poisoned the other. What did that mean? And why did they still partake of their treats anyway? Also after Anthy and Utena promised that they would "laugh together and drink tea ten years from now" why did Anthy immediately decide to [[spoiler: try to commit suicide]]?
** It can be seen as both a warning and a sign of forgiveness. Anthy is warning Utena that she has and will hurt her, just like she poisoned the cookies. Utena, however, acknowledges this by saying she poisoned ''her'' in return, showing that she's still hurt over what she saw between Anthy and Akio. However, they both partake in their "deadly" treats anyway, and saying how good it tastes: saying that they forgive each other, despite the hurt. Notice how when Utena says "We'll definitely meet in ten years to laugh and drink tea", and Anthy agrees, her hand twitches in Utena's grip: at the point, she knows what she's saying is a lie, [[spoiler: because she plans to kill herself that very night.]]
* Question about the end of episode 38 and beginning of 39. Why did [[spoiler: Anthy stab Utena]]?
** [[spoiler: Symbolism. Before going to this duel, Anthy and Utena were having some very frank discussions about betrayal and who was betraying who. Anthy informs Utena that she was knowingly and constantly betraying Utena through their time together. Betraying a person is often referred to as stabbing them in the back, and here Anthy literally, rather than purely figuratively, is a backstabber. Notice also that a wound that should have killed Utena between being sliced and her exertion only slows her down; presumably Anthy wasn't actually trying to kill her so much as make a point. Anthy is on Akio's side and always has been, whatever Utena wants to think of the situation. For all her good intentions, Utena isn't very good at paying attention to what Anthy actually wants or feels. The realization floors her, but ultimately doesn't stop her because whatever Anthy did to her, the pain that Anthy's in is many times worse than her own.]]
** If you prefer a more concrete, plot-based answer, [[spoiler: Akio probably just made her do it. We all know she doesn't really do well when she tries to tell him no.]]
** Another answer is [[spoiler: as we see the arena breakdown around them its because Anthy is confused, she cares about Utena but she fears the world outside of her abusive relationship with Akio. Utena was winning and Akio being the coward that he is throws Anthy in to "fix" it. Having hope is a scary thing for someone in Anthy's position so Anthy decides to make Utena lose by stabbing her. With Utena down the status quo is restored, however it is indicated that she strongly regrets hurting Utena as shown when she hesitates giving Akio the sword.]]
** Yet another answer is [[spoiler: {{Reality is unrealistic}} That is actually normal human behavior. It is common for people trying to save others in a fight to be attacked by the person they save.]]

** Anthy never asked for help or protection. She never wanted Utena to stop her from being the Rose Bride or to protect her. This is TruthInTelevision. Many abuse victim refuse to acknowledge the abuse and trying to save them makes things worse. That's why counselors often advise against interventions, forcing a break up or forcibly removing the victim unless the victim's life is in serious danger. Doing so often leads to the victim lashing out at their rescuers and/or going back to their abuser. The best way to help an abused person is to empower them to free themselves, they have to decide to leave the abuser. [[spoiler: Like how Utena's sincere friendship and love gives Anthy the determination to leave Akio.]]

* Why did Akio and Anthy resurrect Mikage? How did he further their plan?

* This is an odd question but it’s head scratchers and I’m curious: when Anthy makes Utena the cookies that she claims she metaphorically poisoned what kind did they remind everyone of? [[https//78.media.tumblr.com/f617d7d973310fad765f6d26de8b590e/tumblr_n7td3evoIC1tctpqoo9_1280.png Here]] is an image of the cookie from the anime. To me, it looks like a version of the popular [[https://www.shopbiscoff.com/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/c687aa7517cf01e65c009f6943c2b1e9/l/b/lb1551603_1.jpg Biscoff cookie]]. What does everyone else think?

** Total speculation but maybe it's to do with who holds the property. It'd get suspicious if the same person owned the Academy for the length of time that Akio & Anthy have been alive, so he allows another family (or families) to hold the actual deeds & titles (and also pay all the expenses involved in running a boarding school). Which he still probably doesn't ''need'' to do given that he and his sister can alter their appearances and whatnot, but that may be a reason.

* Why did Akio need to seduce Kanae to run the school? Wasn't he already running the school? Isn't the school the whole basis for his plan?

** Anthy never asked for help or protection. She never wanted Utena to stop her from being the Rose Bride or to protect her. This is TruthInTelevision for many abusive relationships. Many abuse victim refuse to acknowledge the abuse and trying to save them makes things worse. That's why counselors and psychologists often advise against interventions, forcing a break up or forcibly removing the victim (the main exception is if a victim's life is in serious danger). Doing so often leads to the victim lashing out at their rescuers and/or going back to their abuser. The best way to help an abused person is to empower them to free themselves, they have to decide to leave the abuser. [[spoiler: Which is how it's ultimately resolved, Utena's sincere friendship and love gives Anthy the determination to leave Akio.]]

** Anthy never asked for help or protection. Until the very end, she never wanted Utena to stop her from being the Rose Bride or to protect her. This is TruthInTelevision for many abusive relationships. Many abuse victim refuse to acknowledge the abuse and trying to save them makes things worse. That's why counselors and psychologists often advise against interventions, forcing a break up or forcibly removing the victim (the main exception is if a victim's life is in serious danger). Doing so often leads to the victim lashing out at their rescuers and/or going back to their abuser. At the end of the day, the best way to help an abused person is to empower them to free themselves, they have to decide to leave the abuser. [[spoiler: Which is how it's ultimately resolved, Utena's sincere friendship and love gives Anthy the determination to leave Akio.]]

** Anthy never asked for help or protection. As horrible as her life was she, until the very end, never wanted Utena to stop her from being the Rose Bride or to protect her. This is TruthInTelevision for many abusive relationships. Many abuse victim refuse to acknowledge the abuse and trying to save them makes things worse. That's why counselors and psychologists often advise against interventions, forcing a break up or forcibly removing the victim (the only exception is if a victim's life is in serious danger). Doing so often leads to the victim lashing out at their rescuers and/or going back to their abuser. At the end of the day, the only way to help an abused person is to empower them to free themselves, they have to decide to leave the abuser. [[spoiler: Which is how it's ultimately resolved, Utena's sincere friendship and love gives Anthy the determination to leave Akio.]]

** Anthy never asked for help or protection. As horrible as her life was she, until the very end, never wanted Utena to stop her from being the Rose Bride or to protect her. This is TruthInTelevision for many abusive relationships. Many abuse victim refuse to acknowledge the abuse and trying to save them makes things worse. That's why counselors and psychologists often advise against interventions, forcing a break up or forcibly removing the victim (the only exception is if a victim's life is in serious danger). Doing so often leads to the victim lashing out at their rescuers and in many cases going back to their abuser. At the end of the day, the only way to help an abused person is to empower them to free themselves, they have to decide to leave the abuser. [[spoiler: Which is how it's ultimately resolved, Utena's sincere friendship and love gives Anthy the determination to leave Akio.]]

** Anthy never asked for help or protection. As horrible as her life was she, until the very end, never wanted Utena to stop her from being the Rose Bridge or to protect her. This is TruthInTelevision for many abusive relationships. Many abuse victim refuse to acknowledge the abuse and trying to save them makes things worse. That's why counselors and psychologists often advise against interventions, forcing a break up or forcibly removing the victim (the only exception is if a victim's life is in serious danger). Doing so often leads to the victim lashing out at their rescuers and in many cases going back to their abuser. At the end of the day, the only way to help an abused person is to empower them to free themselves, they have to decide to leave the abuser. [[spoiler: Which is how it's ultimately resolved, Utena's sincere friendship and love gives Anthy the determination to leave Akio.]]

** Stopping the duels and saving Anthy is well meaning but simply confuses Anthy. Anthy's biggest problem is lack of personal autonomy as she isn't, or more importantly, feels like she isn't in control of her actions or fate. Utena saving Anthy and protecting her, despite Anthy never asking for help or protection, comes across as trading one master for another. And yes, Anthy never gives a straight answer - that's TruthInTelevision as abused people have trouble admitting that they're abused. At the end of the day, the only way to help an abused person is to empower them to free themselves, they have to decide to leave the abuser. [[spoiler: Which is how it's ultimately resolved, Utena's sincere friendship and love gives Anthy the determination to leave Akio.]]

**

** Stopping the duels and saving Anthy is well meaning but simply confuses Anthy. Anthy's biggest problem is lack of personal autonomy as she isn't, or more importantly, feels like she isn't in control of her actions or fate. Utena saving Anthy and protecting her, despite Anthy never asking for help or protection, comes across as trading one master for another. And yes, Anthy never gives a straight answer - that's TruthInTelevsion as abused people have trouble admitting that they're abused. At the end of the day, the only way to help an abused person is to empower them to free themselves, they have to decide to leave the abuser. [[spoiler: Which is how it's ultimately resolved, Utena's sincere friendship and love gives Anthy the determination to leave Akio.]]

** I've seen other cookies with greater resemblance to Anthy's. It's a pretty generic look anyway.

* In the car chase at the end of the movie, during the car chase, the other duelists show up riding a truck that [[spoiler: Is apparently Walkaba.]] Why was she changed into a car?

* In the car chase at the end of the movie, during the car chase, the other duelists show up riding a truck that [[spoiler: Is apparently Walkaba ]] Why was she changed into a car?

* In the car chase at the end of the movie, during the car chase, the other duelists show up riding a truck that [[spoiler: Is apparently Walkaba. ]] Why was she changed into a car?

* This is an odd question but it’s head scratchers and I’m curious: when Anthy makes Utena the cookies that she claims she metaphorically poisoned what kind did they remind everyone of? [[https://78-media-tumblr-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/78.media.tumblr.com/f617d7d973310fad765f6d26de8b590e/tumblr_n7td3evoIC1tctpqoo9_1280.png Here]] is an image of the cookie from the anime. To me, it looks like a version of the popular [[https://www.shopbiscoff.com/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/c687aa7517cf01e65c009f6943c2b1e9/l/b/lb1551603_1.jpg Biscoff cookie]]. What does everyone else think?

* This is an odd question but it’s head scratchers and I’m curious: when Anthy makes Utena the cookies that she claims she metaphorically poisoned what kind did they remind everyone of? [[https://78.media.tumblr.com/f617d7d973310fad765f6d26de8b590e/tumblr_n7td3evoIC1tctpqoo9_1280.png Here]] is an image of the cookie from the anime. To me, it looks like a version of the popular [[https://www.shopbiscoff.com/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/c687aa7517cf01e65c009f6943c2b1e9/l/b/lb1551603_1.jpg Biscoff cookie]]. What does everyone else think?

* This is an odd question but it’s head scratchers and I’m curious: when Anthy makes Utena the cookies that she claims she metaphorically poisoned what kind did they remind everyone of? [[https://78.media.tumblr.com/f617d7d973310fad765f6d26de8b590e/tumblr_n7td3evoIC1tctpqoo9_1280.png Here]] is an image of the cookie from the anime. To me, it looks like a version of the popular [[https://www.shopbiscoff.com/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/c687aa7517cf01e65c009f6943c2b1e9/l/b/lb1551603_1.jpg Biscoff cookie]]. What does everyone else think?