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*** I'd rather say that Paranoid is Chaotic Neutral and Practical Neutral Evil. Our current incarnation is absolutely horrified when witnessing actions of the latter in Private Sensorium (i.e. his betrayal of Deionarra). Heck, he even made Nameless One [[Heroic BSOD CRY]]. (I don't know if it happens during evil playthrough though).
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*** I'd rather say that Paranoid is Chaotic Neutral and Practical Neutral Evil. Our current incarnation is absolutely horrified when witnessing actions of the latter in Private Sensorium (i.e. his betrayal of Deionarra). Heck, he even made Nameless One [[Heroic BSOD CRY]]. (I don't know if it happens during evil playthrough though).
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** Apparently it's a name he went by in a previous incarnation. There's a "Pendant of Yemeth" in a quest that was cut from the game (you can add it back in with mods), but it doesn't shed much light on anything. You just get the pendant from a person that you kill, give it to a fiend, and get some experience and that's it.
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[[Yemeth]]
* Who or what is Yemeth? Why is that the last entry on the list of terms used to describe the Nameless One, first in his own tomb and later by the pillar of skulls?
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*** Yep, he's lying. You need a pretty good intelligence score on the Nameless One to even get that option.
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** He was, indeed, lying. Considering how easy it is to miss the conversation path that leads to him revealing himself it's easy to get confused over multiple replays of the game.
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** Is fire ChaoticEvil? No, it's just fire. Fire elementals are Neutral in Dungeons and Dragons, too. Ignus is basically a hybrid between a mentally ill human and a fire elemental now. He isn't sane or aware enough to have real intent behind his cruelty or get off on others' pain...he just burns things. And depending on how you read his ramblings he seems to believe that burning things makes them beautiful/sets them free. He's Blue and Orange Morality at worst, if a hideously scary example.
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** It's possible I'm remembering this wrong, but doesn't he tell you that shadows killed him before you can get him to reveal that he was the first? In which case, he was presumably just lying, not wanting to get into the fact that he is the original incarnation.
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* A possible FridgeBrilliance I had today: The canonical Enemies Three are Fhjull, Trias, and Ravel, but it's been pointed out here that the three Incarnations work pretty good as well. Does anyone remember what one of the [[RuleOfThree main laws of the planes]] is? That means there could be a third set as well! Pharod could be one in the third set, that just leaves two more...hmm...
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[[WMG: Ignus's Alignment]]
* I know the character page says that Ignus is ChaoticNeutral rather than ChaoticEvil because "his mind is too scrambled for malice", but isn't ''wanting to burn down existence for the sake of burning down existence'' inherently ChaoticEvil regardless?
[[WMG: The Good Incarnation's Death]]
* If you ask the Good Incarnation how he died, he says that he was hunted down by Shadows on Bytopia. But it's possible to find out that the Good Incarnation is also the First Incarnation, i.e. the original Nameless One. This opens up two problems: 1) The First Incarnation was killed by Ravel to see if her spell worked, not by Shadows; 2) Since no one had died in the Nameless One's place yet, there shouldn't be any Shadows coming after him. The first of these problems can be solved by saying that he was the first incarnation of the Nameless One to arise ''after'' Ravel killed him, but this still brings up the problem of having more that one Shadow after him (remember that the Good Incarnation says "Shadow''s''", not "''A'' Shadow".
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***** Trias is the one who keeps you immortal, by lying to you when you meet him in Curst. The SOB. There isn't that better? :)
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***** Trias is the one who keeps you immortal, by lying to you when you meet him in Curst. The SOB. There isn't that better? :)
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** Yes, your alignment changes. Or at least, you get a truckload of alignment points towards a specific one.
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** Further, from what this Troper remembers of liches in DND, upon death, their body reforms where ever the phylactery is.
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[[WMG: Deal With The Dustmen]]
* Are there any consequences to selling your body to the Dustmen?
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* Actually the developers explained why this happens. It's been so long since Ravel's spell was cast that the magic is starting to deteriorate. As the memory loss was part of the spell that has ceased to happen. The downside is he's very close to losing his mind for good, hence the game is a race against time for The Nameless One to either die or regain his mortality before that happens.
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* Actually the developers explained why this happens. It's been so long since Ravel's spell was cast that the magic is starting to deteriorate. As the memory loss was part of the spell that has ceased it now ceases to happen. occur. The downside is due to the spell weakening he's very close to losing his mind for good, hence the game is a race against time for The Nameless One to either die or regain his mortality before that happens.
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* Actually the developers explained why this happens. It's been so long since Ravel's spell was cast that the magic is starting to deteriorate. As the memory loss was part of the spell that has ceased to happen. The downside is he's very close to losing his mind for good, hence the game is a race against time for The Nameless One to either die or regain his mortality before that happens.
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*** Or possibly the ritual was a form of EquivalentExchange: Instead of 'wiping clean' your memory with every death, your mental faculties just degrade a miniscule bit with every death.
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***Same here, I found Mimir.net, the original Planescape fansite (it's still around, but no longer updates) and thus became a fan of the setting because of Torment. My main regret is that they were so intent on totally subverting D&D cliches that they missed out on a few chances to put things like dirty Hiver dwarves or references to mythology that were a mainstay of the original campaign. It's more a very, very minor quibble, as Torment is my favourite game. I have no idea if that would have improved the game or made it worse, though. There are a couple references to other aspects of the multiverse, like the guy from [[FarEast Kara-Tur]] who's a zombie in the Mortuary now.
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* Enforced: WordOfGod said no swords just like they wanted a chaste succubus, an evil angel and an affable devil. [[ptitlenhv310a8odku Baldur's Gate]] has plenty if you're wanting!
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* Enforced: WordOfGod said no swords swords, just like they wanted a chaste succubus, an evil asshole angel and an affable devil. [[ptitlenhv310a8odku Baldur's Gate]] Gate has plenty of swords if you're wanting!
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** And, as far as I can remember, a Lich never had their phylactery conspire to keep them a brain-dead amnesiac for all eternity.
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** tl;dr on this subject: The most evident example of how the ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve effect of the planes works is when Crust [[spoiler: plane-shifts into Carceri]] because of the chaos unleashed in town. You have to re-balance the events [[spoiler:in town]] in order to keep things from further falling apart because everyone's collective understanding of their surroundings is changing and you need to change them back. This means that there's an invisible system of "Paradigm vs Paradigm" that is never truly explained in-game or anywhere for that matter, where the presiding paradigm of a local area's population defines its shape and substance.
** Further examples: The Hive is a filthy trash-pit because it is where individuals whose minds reflect its surroundings gravitate to, which further influences its state as a filthy pit. If one individual from a different ward decided to go force the Hive into being a clean and tidy ward through sheer force of will, he would need to have to beat out the collective paradigm of the residents of the Hive and, indeed, every individual who has memories of the Hive being the Hive and also be able to believe hard enough to change the physical matter of the Hive etc etc. However, changing small details within the world is fairly easy to achieve by one individual. Creating [[spoiler:Adahn]] through belief or changing something small like how fast a plant grows. To be perfectly redundant: if you tried to make all plants in Sigil grow fast, you'd be fighting everyone's perception of how plants grow. This is also why the Lady of Pain does not allow gods in Sigil or for others to worship her, because of the fear of a ''collective'' shift in the paradigm of Sigil as a neutral zone. And furthermore, it is both why gods exist ''and'' why the planes exist. Gods are beings of intense will and they can distort reality at will, but even they only to an extent, and on top of that it's implied that gods themselves only exist because they have followers who believe in what alignment/worldly aspects they represent.
** Further examples: The Hive is a filthy trash-pit because it is where individuals whose minds reflect its surroundings gravitate to, which further influences its state as a filthy pit. If one individual from a different ward decided to go force the Hive into being a clean and tidy ward through sheer force of will, he would need to have to beat out the collective paradigm of the residents of the Hive and, indeed, every individual who has memories of the Hive being the Hive and also be able to believe hard enough to change the physical matter of the Hive etc etc. However, changing small details within the world is fairly easy to achieve by one individual. Creating [[spoiler:Adahn]] through belief or changing something small like how fast a plant grows. To be perfectly redundant: if you tried to make all plants in Sigil grow fast, you'd be fighting everyone's perception of how plants grow. This is also why the Lady of Pain does not allow gods in Sigil or for others to worship her, because of the fear of a ''collective'' shift in the paradigm of Sigil as a neutral zone. And furthermore, it is both why gods exist ''and'' why the planes exist. Gods are beings of intense will and they can distort reality at will, but even they only to an extent, and on top of that it's implied that gods themselves only exist because they have followers who believe in what alignment/worldly aspects they represent.
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* Enforced: WordOfGod said no swords just like they wanted a chaste succubus, an evil angel and an affable devil. [[ptitlenhv310a8odku Baldur's Gate]] has plenty if you're wanting!
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** If anything, Torment has given Planescape more press than it would have had as an obscure 2nd edition D&D supplement. There's always going to be people who play something brainlessly and never investigate what it's based on, but I found out what Planescape was by playing Torment and ended up reading all the Planescape sourcebooks, including the 3rd Edition Manual of the Planes and extended materials, just for entertainment's sake.
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** If there were only one being in the entire multiverse that was able to wiggle his eyebrowns suggestivly without actually having ones... it would be Morte.
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** If there were only one being in the entire multiverse that was able to wiggle his eyebrowns eyebrows suggestivly without actually having ones... it would be Morte.
*** [[ExpospeakGag "Morte waggled the supraorbital margin, supraciliary arches, and frontal eminences of his frontal bone at her."]] It just doesn't roll off the tongue very well.
*** [[ExpospeakGag "Morte waggled the supraorbital margin, supraciliary arches, and frontal eminences of his frontal bone at her."]] It just doesn't roll off the tongue very well.
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[[WMG: Overshadowing Planescape]]
* The game is really good, but I just hate how it is more *known* than the original Planescape setting, which I believe is the best D&D setting. Hell, I bet 90% of the people who played it didn't know it was based on D&D at all.
* The game is really good, but I just hate how it is more *known* than the original Planescape setting, which I believe is the best D&D setting. Hell, I bet 90% of the people who played it didn't know it was based on D&D at all.
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Ravel is a Night Hag
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* Something that others might want to consider, Ravel is a Night Hag, a being of the gray wastes, a NEUTRAL EVIL plane. Night Hags are all Neutral Evil as a rule, so Ravel could very well be the enemy representing evil twisted by the planes. Trias is agreed to be good twisted by the planes, and I'm at a loss for neutral twisted by the planes, suggestions welcome.
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** If there were only one being in the entire multiverse that was able to wiggle his eyebrowns suggestivly without actually having ones... it would be Morte.
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*** The amnesia is part of the natural order, though. You die, forget the petty details of your mortal life, and are sent to the next stage based on what you did and who you were the first time around. So, like dying, TNO has to finally do what everyone does and stop dicking around.
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*** The amnesia is part of the natural order, though. You die, forget the petty details of your mortal life, and are sent to the next stage based on what you did and who you were the first time around. So, like dying, TNO has to finally do what everyone does and stop dicking around.around.
**** I think his death amnesia is the same general thing as petitioner amnesia. So he'd probably remember.
**** I think his death amnesia is the same general thing as petitioner amnesia. So he'd probably remember.
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** This makes sense. The Good incarnation being good, the Paranoid incarnation representing evil, and the Practical incarnation being the epitome of true neutral as described in the players guide. He does horrible stuff but not to be evil, just because it's a means to an end. This is in contrast to the indiscriminate killing and horrible stuff the paranoid incarnation did.
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Adding an opinion to the 'Enemies Three' WMG.
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* This troper would like to suggest that the shades of Good, Neutrality, and Evil given life and twisted by the laws of this planes are actually the Good, Paranoid, and Practical incarnations. None of them are more dangerous than yourself in your full glory... because they're you.
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**** The Godsmen believe in karma and reincarnation. Their belief is basically that every time you die you are reborn into a new life state depending on how you've lived your life up until this point. They're called 'godsmen' because they believe all beings have the potential for divinity in them, and their goal is to become gods.
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[[WMG: Miraculous Morte]]
* If you ask Kimasxi Adder-Tongue from the Brothel of Slating Intellectual Lusts to teach Morte to be more abusive... Morte ''waggles his eyebrows at her.'' The floating skull ''WAGGLES HIS EYEBROWS.'' I'd say YouFailBiologyForever but it's almost certainly intentional.
* If you ask Kimasxi Adder-Tongue from the Brothel of Slating Intellectual Lusts to teach Morte to be more abusive... Morte ''waggles his eyebrows at her.'' The floating skull ''WAGGLES HIS EYEBROWS.'' I'd say YouFailBiologyForever but it's almost certainly intentional.
