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*** Or he's not helping the fearful: he's helping the ''fear''.


** Crane didn't invent the fear toxin's active ingredient in the Nolanverse, the ''League of Shadows'' did. They're a very old organization that probably used horses for centuries to get around, and may well have formulated it so it wouldn't affect their steeds. That's assuming horses aren't naturallt immune; perhaps the toxic flowers once grew on the steppes where domestic horses' ancestors roamed wild, and the animals evolved a resistance so they could graze without being poisoned.

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** Crane didn't invent the fear toxin's active ingredient in the Nolanverse, the ''League of Shadows'' did. They're a very old organization that probably used horses for centuries to get around, and may well have formulated it so it wouldn't affect their steeds. That's assuming horses aren't naturallt naturally immune; perhaps the toxic flowers once grew on the steppes where domestic horses' ancestors roamed wild, and the animals evolved a resistance so they could graze without being poisoned.

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** Crane didn't invent the fear toxin's active ingredient in the Nolanverse, the ''League of Shadows'' did. They're a very old organization that probably used horses for centuries to get around, and may well have formulated it so it wouldn't affect their steeds. That's assuming horses aren't naturallt immune; perhaps the toxic flowers once grew on the steppes where domestic horses' ancestors roamed wild, and the animals evolved a resistance so they could graze without being poisoned.

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** The Asylum is pretty transparently being used as a way of enabling criminals to avoid prosecution by feigning mental illness and being "treated" by a corrupt psychologist. Rachel is presumably not referring to therapy in the sense of it being a way of treating legitimate mental illness, but Crane's bullshit "therapy" wherein he lies about hired mob killers being mentally incapable of understanding their actions so that they get transferred to an asylum and thus avoid the jail time they rightfully have coming to them (presumably with the intention of being funnelled out back onto the streets after a token period of "therapy"). What Crane is doing is quite obviously -- to the point of being visible from space -- neither justice nor therapy. There is no hypocrisy here.

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** Rachel is a senior prosecutor (a fairly notable public figure in other words) who has almost certainly told at least one other person that she trusts that she's going to see Dr Crane at Arkham Asylum. She presumably assumes that Crane is smart enough not to murder her in the basement of his own asylum, since even he would lack plausible deniability if something happened to her immediately after going to see him at his place of work. Furthermore, it's the basement level of a major public healthcare institution, not the Bates Motel, so she likely assumes there are going to be other people down there as well. She simply underestimates what the plan is, how far along it is, and how batshit insane Crane is.


*** Mild snideness aside, the life of a district attorney, somewhat hectic and prone to a clash in priorities it may be, is nevertheless ''still'' a lot more stable than the guy who spends his evenings dressing up as a bat-themed ninja and running around from dusk to dawn risking his life beating up criminals to satisfy his intense childhood-trauma-driven lust for vengeance and justice. We have to consider this in relative terms here.



** Unless you think that Bruce should have just passively allowed the League to execute both him and the farmer, I'm not sure where the hypocrisy lies. The destruction of the League's headquarters and the deaths of any who were there was pretty clearly more of an unintended side-effect of Bruce defending himself and the farmer when the League took exception to his refusal to kill on their behalf and trying to kill both of them.



*** Also, Batman is probably willing to give Falcone a few minor burns, which is the worst he'd probably get from that spotlight assuming he wasn't tied up there for too long. Falcone ''is'' a ruthless crime lord who has kept Gotham trapped in corruption, vice and fear, ruled as an arrogantly untouchable overlord for too long and [[ArsonMurderAndJaywalking said some pretty nasty things about Bruce and his parents]], after all.

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*** Also, Batman is probably willing to give Falcone a few minor burns, which is the worst he'd probably get from that spotlight assuming he wasn't tied up there for too long. Falcone ''is'' a ruthless crime lord who has kept Gotham trapped in corruption, vice and fear, ruled as an arrogantly untouchable overlord for too long and [[ArsonMurderAndJaywalking said some pretty nasty things about Bruce and his parents]], parents to Bruce's face]], after all.



** It also seems a little questionable to claim that the Great Fire "hardly qualifies as the fall of a corrupt metropolis". It destroyed about a third of the city (including homes, businesses churches, etc), killed an unknown amount of people,[[note]]The official death toll is six to eight, but this is heavily disputed since many of the people in the area would have been poor and probably ignored.[[/note]] rendered about 70,000 people homeless, and cost would in today's money be approximately £1.55 billion to clean up. That's nothing to sniff at. No one ever said the League weren't willing to allow the survivors of their purges the chance to rebuild and try again.

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** It also seems a little questionable to claim that the Great Fire "hardly qualifies as the fall of a corrupt metropolis". It destroyed about a third of the city (including homes, businesses churches, etc), killed an unknown amount of people,[[note]]The official death toll is six to eight, but this is heavily disputed since many of the people in the area would have been poor and probably ignored.[[/note]] rendered about 70,000 people homeless, and cost would in today's money be approximately £1.55 billion to clean up.up, forcing pretty much the entire restructuring of London in the process. It also [[https://theclassicjournal.uga.edu/index.php/2020/04/21/the-social-and-political-consequences-of-the-great-fire-of-london/ arguably]] exacerbated political tensions that would, within a few decades, lead to a political restructuring that drastically weakened the power of the English monarchy. That's nothing to sniff at. No one ever said the League weren't willing to allow the survivors of their purges the chance to rebuild and try again.


* In ''Batman Begins'', Bruce Wayne chooses to defy the League of Shadows by refusing to execute a farmer accused of murder. He supposedly does this because he feels this is not the right way to deal with the farmer's crime, and he doesn't want blood on his hands. Instead, he decides to escape the League entirely, and in the process, he ''blows up the entire headquarters''. Surely the farmer died in the explosion, along with a bunch of other innocent League members. So how does Bruce Wayne's attempt to escape show that he stands for justice?

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* In ''Batman Begins'', Bruce Wayne chooses to defy the League of Shadows by refusing to execute a farmer accused of murder. He supposedly does this because he feels this is not the right way to deal with the farmer's crime, and he doesn't want blood on his hands. Instead, he decides to escape the League entirely, and in the process, he ''blows up the entire headquarters''. Surely the farmer died in the explosion, along with a bunch of other innocent League members. So how does Bruce Wayne's attempt to escape show that he stands for justice?


** Double fridge-horror watching post-COVID. That scene early on when Bruce stands up inside the swarm of bats? Yikes.

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** Double fridge-horror watching post-COVID. That In addition, in that scene early on when Bruce stands up inside the swarm of bats? Yikes.bats, heís very lucky he didnít get bitten or catch a disease.



** Wow. Good point. Indeed, she does come off a little harshly for somebody whose friend was thought to be dead.

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** Wow. Good point. Indeed, she does come off a little harshly for somebody whose friend was thought to be dead.

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** "Justice" is not a synonym of "rehabilitation", and "revenge" is not a synonym of "punishment". Rachel defines this explicitly: "Justice is about harmony; Revenge is about your making yourself feel better". Her point was that Bruce was willing to kill Joe Chill in order to make himself feel better, without caring what consequences this would have for other people. If Joe can make a deal where he testifies against Falcone and gets a lighter sentence, then Falcone (potentially) goes to jail and a lot of crimes get prevented (since Falcone runs a criminal empire). But if Bruce kills Joe, then Joe never testifies and Falcone goes free and a lot of innocent people get hurt (in the long run). Rachel is saying that Bruce needs to look beyond his own pain; he has to do what's best for the city at large. Seen in that light, Rachel isn't a hypocrite at all. She throws criminals in jail in order to protect innocent people. She never puts her own desires above the needs of the city.


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** He could've just handwaved it, like "Ra's is a demon in the eyes of his enemies" or something.

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*** Theatricality is a powerful agent. Bruce uses the Batman voice to scare his enemies, and he wants to scare Ra's. And yeah, Ra's doesn't seem especially intimidated, but why would Bruce stop making the effort? Switching to his normal voice mid-conversation would just sound lame. But if he keeps using the scary voice, there's a least a ''chance'' it puts some fear into Ra's eventually, and Bruce is looking for every possible advantage.


** I assumed that he purposely insulted his parents not just to rub salt into Bruce's ego but as a way of taking down the "Prince of Gotham" in front of the multitudes of important people in the room such as the judge. Notice how he looks about the room afterwards to be sure those people are paying attention to him insulting and then smacking around the richest person in the city.

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** I assumed that he He purposely insulted his parents not just to rub salt into Bruce's ego but as a way of taking down the "Prince of Gotham" in front of the multitudes of important people in the room such as the judge. Notice how he looks about the room afterwards to be sure those people are paying attention to him insulting and then smacking around the richest person in the city.



* In ''Batman Begins'', Bruce Wayne chooses to defy the League of Shadows by refusing to execute a farmer accused of murder. He supposedly does this because he feels this is not the right way to deal with the farmer's crime, and he doesn't want blood on his hands. Instead, he decides to escape the League entirely, and in the process, he ''blows up the entire headquarters''. Surely the farmer died in the explosion, along with a bunch of other innocent League members. If I were that farmer and I had to choose between getting my head cut off and burning to death, I'd definitely go with the former. So how does Bruce Wayne's attempt to escape show that he stands for justice?

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* In ''Batman Begins'', Bruce Wayne chooses to defy the League of Shadows by refusing to execute a farmer accused of murder. He supposedly does this because he feels this is not the right way to deal with the farmer's crime, and he doesn't want blood on his hands. Instead, he decides to escape the League entirely, and in the process, he ''blows up the entire headquarters''. Surely the farmer died in the explosion, along with a bunch of other innocent League members. If I were that farmer and I had to choose between getting my head cut off and burning to death, I'd definitely go with the former. So how does Bruce Wayne's attempt to escape show that he stands for justice?



[[folder:Am I seeing things?]]
* I'm getting the feeling I'm the only one who sees it, but I can swear you can see Ra's jump off the train in the climax of batman begins. something I think batman would have foreseen as he knew Ra's physical abilities very well.
** No, you're seeing things.
** That said, you don't see him die either, but man would that ever be an epically over-the-top case of NoOneCouldSurviveThat.
[[/folder]]



** It's one of the mounted police's. I believe you see a few of them before everything goes to hell.
** You've made my sister very happy. Although she's now asking why we bother with mounted police and I don't think you should be compelled to answer that.

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** It's one of the mounted police's. I believe you see a A few of them are seen before everything goes to hell.
** You've made my sister very happy. Although she's now asking why we bother with mounted police and I don't think you should be compelled to answer that.
hell.



*** Also, Mounted Police are often used by many police forces for riot control because of the height advantage and PR. (Hey, lots of people like horses.) Just like Bicycle Police there's a reason for everything they do.

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*** Also, Mounted Police are often used by many police forces for riot control because of the height advantage and PR. (Hey, lots of people like horses.) Just like Bicycle Police there's a reason for everything they do.



*** You can actually see him dragging the unconscious or dead body of the cop behind the horse. You got me on how he controlled the horse, though.

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*** You can actually see him dragging the unconscious or dead body of the cop behind the horse. You got me on It's unknown how he controlled the horse, though.



*** I believe there was a throw-away line about Crane growing up on a farm? Anyway, it is likely that horse would not be affected the same way as a human by the drug. Being "artificial" has nothing to do with the biological barrier tropes. No, sir, the FridgeLogic sets in when you consider that the horse is in the middle of an urban district full of PEOPLE GOING COMPLETELY BATSHIT INSANE. That poor animal is terrified whether or not the drug affects it.

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*** I believe there There was a throw-away line about Crane growing up on a farm? Anyway, it is likely that horse would not be affected the same way as a human by the drug. Being "artificial" has nothing to do with the biological barrier tropes. No, sir, the FridgeLogic sets in when you consider that the horse is in the middle of an urban district full of PEOPLE GOING COMPLETELY BATSHIT INSANE. That poor animal is terrified whether or not the drug affects it.



*** I'll add to the above that police horses in the real world are actually trained to handle chaos and riots. It would be weird if GCPD's weren't.

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*** I'll add to the above that police Police horses in the real world are actually trained to handle chaos and riots. It would be weird if GCPD's weren't.



*** Scarecrow's in-comics backstory had him growing up on a farm, so it's not implausible, heck, it's even probable that he had learned to ride. Plus, this doubles as one of the few [[MythologyGag mythology gags]] that continuity-hating Chris Nolan would allow, I suppose.

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*** Scarecrow's in-comics backstory had him growing up on a farm, so it's not implausible, heck, it's even probable that he had learned to ride. Plus, this doubles as one of the few [[MythologyGag mythology gags]] that continuity-hating Chris Nolan would allow, I suppose.



** Considering Earle is pretty much your standard CorruptCorporateExecutive, I bet he'd have handy Golf Club set stored away near his office.

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** Considering Earle is pretty much your standard CorruptCorporateExecutive, I bet he'd have handy Golf Club set stored away near his office.



* One thing that bugged me about Dr. Crane was his outfit. The mask is damn creepy, especially once you subject someone to the hallucinogen, but when the rest of your outfit consists of a suit and tie, [[NightmareRetardant it really doesn't work that well.]] I understand that he couldn't just change in the middle of a battle, but if he was anticipating using the mask and he wasn't in the hospital, like when he was burning down that apartment, he could have dressed in something that would fit.
** I think the idea is that, instead of having to take the time to make a quick change, this guy could turn into The Scarecrow ''at any moment''. It just takes two seconds to whip on a mask. Not much time to prepare for a sneak attack, especially if he gets you off your guard in the first place, as he did Batman.
*** Plus you get a nice BadassInANiceSuit thing going on. Makes him quirkier, I guess.

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* One thing that bugged me about Dr. Crane was his outfit. The mask is damn creepy, especially once you subject someone to the hallucinogen, but when the rest of your outfit consists of a suit and tie, [[NightmareRetardant it really doesn't work that well.]] I understand that he He couldn't just change in the middle of a battle, but if he was anticipating using the mask and he wasn't in the hospital, like when he was burning down that apartment, he could have dressed in something that would fit.
** I think the The idea is that, instead of having to take the time to make a quick change, this guy could turn into The Scarecrow ''at any moment''. It just takes two seconds to whip on a mask. Not much time to prepare for a sneak attack, especially if he gets you off your guard in the first place, as he did Batman.
*** Plus you get a nice BadassInANiceSuit thing going on. Makes him quirkier, I guess.quirkier.



** As for your question, I wonder myself. But as to the name of the league, I'm pretty sure that in the comics the League of Assassins is a ''division'' of the League of Shadows.

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** As for your question, I wonder myself. But as to the name of the league, I'm pretty sure that in the comics the League of Assassins is a ''division'' of the League of Shadows.



*** They go to lengths showing that it would take two separate, large orders to put Batman's cowl together - I imagine ordering about ten thousand pieces of metal shaped pre-cut to be shaped like a bat, of all things, would look rather suspicious when Batman gets known by the public.

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*** They go to lengths showing that it would take two separate, large orders to put Batman's cowl together - I imagine ordering about ten thousand pieces of metal shaped pre-cut to be shaped like a bat, of all things, would look rather suspicious when Batman gets known by the public.



[[folder:When Batman took up his moniker]]
* It always bothered me that Bruce seems to have named ''himself'' "Batman" during the Falcone fight. Especially since there's a perfect scene late in the film where Crane appears to ''coin'' the term, calling him "The Bat-Man" to his mooks. They could just have easily left out the name drop until this scene to show the last piece of the puzzle falling into place, so to speak.
** Well, as implied by Bruce's conversation with other wealthy socialites at the hotel restaurant, (ie. the lady who said "''I think the Batman deserves a medal''") the name "Batman" had probably been spread by the media and[=/=]or by word of mouth. So the name "Batman" came into prominent use long before Crane had used it, whether it originated from Batman's own words to Falcone or not.
** And it's arguably better that Batman names himself, rather than being named by one of his lesser-known villains.
** Plus, let's face it: Batman's first appearance involving him swooping down out of nowhere, grabbing some terrified bad guy and growling "I'm Batman!" at them before opening a can of whoop-ass is a pretty damn iconic moment. For all the memes and jokes, people keep doing it for a reason.
[[/folder]]



** Yeah...I'm chalking this one up to ViewersAreMorons. Procedural cop shows like CSI have tricked lots of people into thinking that you can take one tiny sample of something, run it through a spectro-whatcha-machine in a lab somewhere, and fart out a complete chemical analysis. That said, I don't think Batman expected a mass produced antidote overnight. There probably would be a long stretch of time when Batman has to work to keep the Narrows from exploding into violent chaos while the antidote is being manufactured. And the end of the movie implies there's been a timeskip.

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** Yeah...I'm chalking this one up to ViewersAreMorons. Procedural cop shows like CSI have tricked lots of people into thinking that you can take one tiny sample of something, run it through a spectro-whatcha-machine in a lab somewhere, and fart out a complete chemical analysis. That said, I don't think Batman expected didn't expect a mass produced antidote overnight. There probably would be a long stretch of time when Batman has to work to keep the Narrows from exploding into violent chaos while the antidote is being manufactured. And the end of the movie implies there's been a timeskip.



** I may be wrong, but I thought Lucius made the antidote from SCRATCH once Bruce had been gassed. Based on the substances in his blood. For all we know it just limits the violent reaction to the toxins while it runs its course.

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** I may be wrong, but I thought Lucius made the antidote from SCRATCH once Bruce had been gassed. Based on the substances in his blood. For all we know it just limits the violent reaction to the toxins while it runs its course.



* Why do the League of Shadows care about a target as small as Gotham City? I know their mandate is to bring down places consumed by decadence and corruption, but Gotham is '''one city''' in the middle of a vast nation of nearly 300 million people. Are they just going to keep destroying every corrupt city on Earth one at a time until the only ones left are the good ones?

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* Why do the League of Shadows care about a target as small as Gotham City? I know their Their mandate is to bring down places consumed by decadence and corruption, but Gotham is '''one city''' in the middle of a vast nation of nearly 300 million people. Are they just going to keep destroying every corrupt city on Earth one at a time until the only ones left are the good ones?



*** I don't think it's exactly a state secret that Gotham is a corrupt craphole, especially before Batman arrives. The public doesn't need to know Gotham was destroyed by the League of Shadows as a lesson to everyone else, they just need to know Gotham burned to the ground because the corrupt politicians and cops let the criminals run rampant.

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*** I don't think it's It's not exactly a state secret that Gotham is a corrupt craphole, especially before Batman arrives. The public doesn't need to know Gotham was destroyed by the League of Shadows as a lesson to everyone else, they just need to know Gotham burned to the ground because the corrupt politicians and cops let the criminals run rampant.



As I recall, in the main continuity at least, Arkham Asylum started out as a private residence and estate. The same's probably true here.

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As I recall, in In the main continuity at least, Arkham Asylum started out as a private residence and estate. The same's probably true here.



** I suspect this is a misinterpretation. The League of Shadows don't necessarily want to destroy everything. They want to wipe the slate clean so that something better can arise. Maybe 17th century London's problem, in their eyes, *was* overcrowding? So, a great fire, half the city burns down. . . and then rises to new greater heights. Granted, this opens all kinds of questions as to what, exactly, inspires the League to action. . .

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** I suspect this This is a misinterpretation. The League of Shadows don't necessarily want to destroy everything. They want to wipe the slate clean so that something better can arise. Maybe 17th century London's problem, in their eyes, *was* overcrowding? So, a great fire, half the city burns down. . . and then rises to new greater heights. Granted, this opens all kinds of questions as to what, exactly, inspires the League to action. . .



* I know it's probably RuleOfCool or something similar, and fairly minor, but why do the bats fly through the windows into the asylum? this would make sense if they were birds (who fly into windows on a regular basis) but bats don't use their eyes to find their way around. They use sound. So they would "see" them and avoid them altogether.

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* I know it's probably RuleOfCool or something similar, and fairly minor, but why Why do the bats fly through the windows into the asylum? this would make sense if they were birds (who fly into windows on a regular basis) but bats don't use their eyes to find their way around. They use sound. So they would "see" them and avoid them altogether.



*** I was referring to the first time Rachel was poisoned. Then she should have been pretty terrified to be in a car with a freaky man bat.

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*** I This was referring to the first time Rachel was poisoned. Then she should have been pretty terrified to be in a car with a freaky man bat.



[[folder:Graphite problem]]
* What was the point of the "problem with the graphite" scene? It's never an issue, Batman doesn't hit his head or break a mask and far as I can remember they never say anything about the new shipment.
** Probably just as a joke, and to illustrate the complications with trying to be Batman.
** Man oh man this did one become ironic with ''Film/TheDarkKnightRises''...
[[/folder]]



* I'll admit that it's been a while since I've seen the movie, but didn't Ra's complain to Bruce about being left for dead? I was pretty sure that Bruce risked his life to save Ra's, and then carried him to that village and left him in the care of some old lady. I can understand being pissed that his house burned down, but I'd hardly call being left in the care of an old lady "left for dead." But then did the old lady not tell Ra's that some weird white guy left him there, or did Bruce not bother to tell her anything? Please correct me if I got some stuff wrong, but that always bothered me when I watched it.
** I don't recall that at all. In fact, I'm pretty sure Ra's knew Bruce had saved his life, based on these lines.

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* I'll admit that it's been a while since I've seen the movie, but didn't Why does Ra's complain to Bruce about being left for dead? I was pretty sure that Bruce risked his life to save Ra's, and then carried him to that village and left him in the care of some old lady. I can understand being While he's be pissed that his house burned down, but I'd he'd hardly call being left in the care of an old lady "left for dead." But then did the old lady not tell Ra's that some weird white guy left him there, or did Bruce not bother to tell her anything? Please correct me if I got some stuff wrong, but that always bothered me when I watched it.
anything?
** I don't recall that at all. In fact, I'm pretty sure Ra's knew Bruce had saved his life, based on these lines.



** I suspect that Ra's's reasoning went something like: A) Bruce Wayne believed Ra's al-Ghul was dead when he left League headquarters. B) I am Ra's al-Ghul. C) Bruce Wayne therefore effectively left me for dead, instead choosing to save one of Ra's's minions. The fact that the minion in question was actually Ra's does not make up for Wayne's choices.

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** I suspect that Later on he says "You burned my house and left me for dead. Consider us even." Likely, Ra's's reasoning went something like: A) Bruce Wayne believed Ra's al-Ghul was dead when he left League headquarters. B) I am Ra's al-Ghul. C) Bruce Wayne therefore effectively left me for dead, instead choosing to save one of Ra's's minions. The fact that the minion in question was actually Ra's does not make up for Wayne's choices.



** Dr. Crane could certainly have developed an antidote easily, but being a bit of a nut as he is, I'm pretty sure he ''wouldn't want to.'' The League would probably like the idea of a chemical weapon with no cure; and Crane certainly wouldn't want to chance people getting their hands on his antidote and curing all his beloved fear. Even if Ra's asked to have an antidote available, Crane would probably tell him none could be made. As for why he doesn't even immunize himself: Crane is nuts. He probably tests out the gas on himself, and may even ''like'' its effects. Why would he want to ruin that?

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** Dr. Crane could certainly have developed an antidote easily, but being a bit of a nut as he is, I'm pretty sure he ''wouldn't want to.'' The League would probably like the idea of a chemical weapon with no cure; and Crane certainly wouldn't want to chance people getting their hands on his antidote and curing all his beloved fear. Even if Ra's asked to have an antidote available, Crane would probably tell him none could be made. As for why he doesn't even immunize himself: Crane is nuts. He probably tests out the gas on himself, and may even ''like'' its effects. Why would he want to ruin that?



*** If they had really wanted an antidote, they could have had one. I just don't think it's one of the things they would have particularly worried about. The gas masks worked just fine; it's not like the toxin was instantly fatal (and Ra's probably wouldn't care too much if his [[WhatMeasureIsAMook minions]] were exposed anyway); and no cure in existence means no chance of the plan failing due to the cure recipe leaking.
** As I understand it (and I don't pretend to be an expert), immunization isn't a magic cure-all process and has it's limits. You might be able to, say, drink small amounts of arsenic and develop some tolerance for it, but you wouldn't suddenly be able to make yourself arsenic martinis and drink gallons of the stuff with no ill effects whatsoever. It's still a lethal poison, and there's no such thing as complete immunity towards it. Even if Crane had an antidote at hand or had been giving himself small doses of fear gas to immunize himself, he literally had a huge cloud of the stuff sprayed right in his face; that's bound to have ''some'' effects.

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*** If they had really wanted an antidote, they could have had one. I just don't think it's It's not one of the things they would have particularly worried about. The gas masks worked just fine; it's not like the toxin was instantly fatal (and Ra's probably wouldn't care too much if his [[WhatMeasureIsAMook minions]] were exposed anyway); and no cure in existence means no chance of the plan failing due to the cure recipe leaking.
** As I understand it (and I don't pretend to be an expert), immunization Immunization isn't a magic cure-all process and has it's limits. You might be able to, say, drink small amounts of arsenic and develop some tolerance for it, but you wouldn't suddenly be able to make yourself arsenic martinis and drink gallons of the stuff with no ill effects whatsoever. It's still a lethal poison, and there's no such thing as complete immunity towards it. Even if Crane had an antidote at hand or had been giving himself small doses of fear gas to immunize himself, he literally had a huge cloud of the stuff sprayed right in his face; that's bound to have ''some'' effects.



[[folder:About Earle]]
* Is there something about William Earle (the original CEO of Wayne Enterprises) that we're not supposed to like? He takes the company public, which is different from what Thomas Wayne would have wanted, but I don't see anything particularly immoral about that. He got a KickTheDog moment by being kinda smarmy while firing Fox but that's about it. He doesn't seem corrupt, destructive, or irresponsible. So why are we supposed to be happy that he gets fired and replaced with Fox?
** If I recall correctly, he tells young Bruce that his company 'will be waiting for him,' then turns and tries to seize it by declaring Bruce dead. He also shifts the focus of Bruce Wayne's company to military weapons like that microwave thing Ra's stole, exactly the opposite of what Thomas Wayne would have wanted (note that all of Lucius' defensive and constructive inventions, like the Batsuit and the Tumbler, have been shelved). Plus he was just a SmugSnake who picked on Fox for no good reason.
** Didn't anyone else notice the HUGE firing offense that is destroying the paper trail and covering the tracks of the League of Shadows in order to spare his company any possible liability? Earle must have known that the emitter was a terrorist weapon (Lucius calls him on it) and instead of warning the law he covered it up! Even if you might think that he is portrayed unsympathetically before that he is definitely accomplice after the fact to one of the worst WMD terrorist attacks ever by the end of the film. He was definitely deserving of more than his quiet firing at the end of the movie, it's a surprise Fox isn't handing Earle over to the FBI. Filing the serial numbers off [=WMDs=] is a pretty serious lapse in ethics.
*** Good reason to fire Earle first and report him to the authorities the morning after then. It'd be really bad PR for Wayne Enterprises to have an executive dragged off in handcuffs and have it in the paper that a Wayne Enterprises CEO was being arrested of terrorism charges. Far better and a lot easier for the headlines to be "Former Wayne Enterprises Executive Was Arrested... etc". Especially since Bruce burning down his own house was its own PR disaster and would have to be weathered with him retaking the reins of the business.
[[/folder]]



** They're the ''police''. They don't get to decide who they pursue or not; for all they know, this guy's headed to attack a preschool next or a church or something. For a real-life example, watch [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnUoUKEIGoo this footage]] of some guy who stole a tank and went on a rampage a few years back. One of the things you'll notice is a lot of police cars chasing him despite the obvious risks involved (albeit from a much safer distance, but then, well, this is still an action movie we're talking about). Because, you know, people recklessly driving massive armored vehicles through the streets and leaving a swathe of destruction in their path is kind of the sort of thing they have to address, even if they don't want to. I know this is Gotham and it doesn't exactly have a police department with a great reputation, but even a corrupt police department in thrall to the local crime boss nevertheless probably realizes that some vigilante driving a tank through the streets is probably something they shouldn't just sit back and allow without a token effort at least.

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** They're the ''police''. They don't get to decide who they pursue or not; for all they know, this guy's headed to attack a preschool next or a church or something. For a real-life example, watch [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnUoUKEIGoo this footage]] of some guy who stole a tank and went on a rampage a few years back. One of the things you'll notice is a lot of police cars chasing him despite the obvious risks involved (albeit from a much safer distance, but then, well, this is still an action movie we're talking about). Because, you know, people recklessly driving massive armored vehicles through the streets and leaving a swathe of destruction in their path is kind of the sort of thing they have to address, even if they don't want to. I know Yes, this is Gotham and it doesn't exactly have a police department with a great reputation, but even a corrupt police department in thrall to the local crime boss nevertheless probably realizes that some vigilante driving a tank through the streets is probably something they shouldn't just sit back and allow without a token effort at least.



* I find it odd that Bruce is talking in his Batman voice even though Ras already figured out his identity.

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* I find it It's odd that Bruce is talking in his Batman voice even though Ras already figured out his identity.



*** It's the fact that he does the Batman voice around people who already knows his identity. It may not be a big deal out-of-universe, but in-universe, it must have been awkward for Ras and the others. Don't tell me you would not feel weird if someone you know was doing the voice even after finding out his identity.

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*** It's the fact that he does the Batman voice around people who already knows his identity. It may not be a big deal out-of-universe, but in-universe, it must have been awkward for Ras and the others. Don't tell me you would not feel weird if someone you know was doing the voice even after finding out his identity.

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** Rachel is one of the most senior prosecutors in the city. She also has a strong suspicion that Crane's "therapy" is in fact anything but and actually just a means of keeping players like him who are complicit with Crane's crimes too traumatised to sing the truth about them. Crane is ''not'' a person to whom she is going to show her most reasonable and idealistic side to. It's likely she'd be more than happy to see certain unwell criminals sent to [[Film/BatmanVSupermanDawnOfJustice "hospitals who treat the mentally ill with compassion..."]] where they could potentially rehabilitate but only presuming they'd be treated under ''competent doctors''. Conversely, as a hardened prosecutor she may believe that certain sane-yet-evil criminals do deserve life sentences, and in the middle, that other criminals can rehabilitate after a stretch behind bars.


* How come Gordon's son, while under the effects of the fear toxin, wasn't scared of Batman or Rachel? Everyone else on the fear toxin saw Batman as this demonic flying bat, and there's no reason why it wouldn't make Rachel look freaky to everyone as well. And on that subject, how come Rachel didn't see Batman as a big demonic creature when she was poisoned earlier in the movie?
** That's not Gordon's son... it was shown that the kid was still hyperventilating after being rescue, so it's possible he was afraid but tried not to show it. And we never saw Rachel's POV of the Batman earlier in the movie.
** It is Gordon's son. He even mentions how Batman returned when he promised he would the first time he met him. And he wouldn't have the ability to try not to show fear because the toxin turns you irrational. Everyone else under it turned into a shrieking crazy.
** It's not Gordon's son. It's the boy that Batman encountered earlier in the movie, whose parents were yelling at him from inside the house. No connection to Gordon.
** [[CompletelyMissingThePoint It isn't Gordon's son]]. They're both played by different actors, and [=IMDb=] credits him as "Little Boy". That's Brendan Gleason, AKA the kid who went onto play Joffrey on ''Series/GameOfThrones''. I think it would have been noticed if he played someone as important as Gordon's son.

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* How come Gordon's son, the kid, while under the effects of the fear toxin, wasn't scared of Batman or Rachel? Everyone else on the fear toxin saw Batman as this demonic flying bat, and there's no reason why it wouldn't make Rachel look freaky to everyone as well. And on that subject, how come Rachel didn't see Batman as a big demonic creature when she was poisoned earlier in the movie?
** That's not Gordon's son... it was shown that the kid was still hyperventilating after being rescue, so it's possible he was afraid but tried not to show it. And we never saw Rachel's POV of the Batman earlier in the movie.
** It is Gordon's son. He even mentions how Batman returned when he promised he would the first time he met him. And he wouldn't have the ability to try not to show fear because the toxin turns you irrational. Everyone else under it turned into a shrieking crazy.
** It's not Gordon's son. It's the boy that Batman encountered earlier in the movie, whose parents were yelling at him from inside the house. No connection to Gordon.
** [[CompletelyMissingThePoint It isn't Gordon's son]]. They're both played by different actors, and [=IMDb=] credits him as "Little Boy". That's Brendan Gleason, AKA the kid who went onto play Joffrey on ''Series/GameOfThrones''. I think it would have been noticed if he played someone as important as Gordon's son.
movie?

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[[/folder]]

[[folder: "Ra's al ghul"]]
* If the meaning of it is "head of the demon", wouldn't Henri Ducard have been a bit more careful not telling its meaning? It could've scared Bruce if he did a research.


[[folder:Are the police suicidal]]

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[[folder:Are the police suicidal]]suicidal?]]


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[[folder: Is ''Rachel'' suicidal?]]
* Why in the name of God would you follow a man you explicitly do not trust into a basement? Granted, she could probably beat Crane in a physical fight, but you would think an assistant DA would know better than to follow anyone into a basement, even short, unintimidating doctors.
[[/folder]]


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[[/folder]]

[[folder: Rachel's hypocrisy about justice and revenge]]
* Rachel tells Bruce that revenge and justice are never the same, with the implication that she's so much more moral than him because she wants justice, not revenge. Except she spends most of the movie trying to put criminals in prison instead of an asylum, when they'd be just as imprisoned in Arkham as they would in an actual prison. Her goal ''should'' be to get criminals off the streets and rehabilitate them, but she straight-up says she doesn't care about rehabilitation when she tells Crane, "I do what I do to keep thugs like Falcone behind bars, not in therapy." Behind bars=being punished, not in therapy=not being rehabilitated. She just wants criminals to rot in prison, which isn't justice by any metric and sounds a hell of a lot like revenge.

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