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* This troper was always a bit annoyed with how lightly Mai and Ty Lee got off in the show. No, not with ''Azula'' - I mean with the rest of the characters. Mai and Ty Lee have been beside Azula since they were kids, and apathy/perkiness or not, they helped her ''topple cities'' and ''kidnap kings'', probably among other war crimes. And when they finally have their big betrayal, it's not because they realize what they're doing is wrong, it's because Mai loves Zuko and Ty Lee loves Mai (more than Azula). And then they go to some prison where they bond with the Kyoshi warriors, except off screen and we never hear from them again until the very end, after everything is over. It took Zuko ''forever'' to realize that his actions were wrong, and it was a huge payoff when he finally switched sides and it took time for him to be forgiven/accepted. I wouldn't want a huge epic of the Mai and Ty Lee, but a few hints dropped here and there beforehand would have been nice.
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* This troper was always a bit annoyed with how lightly Mai and Ty Lee got off in the show. No, not with ''Azula'' - I mean with the rest of the characters. Mai and Ty Lee have been beside Azula since they were kids, and apathy/perkiness or not, they helped her ''topple cities'' and ''kidnap kings'', probably among other war crimes. And when they finally have their big betrayal, it's not because they realize what they're doing is wrong, it's because Mai loves Zuko and Ty Lee loves Mai (more than either of them fear Azula). And then they go to some prison where they bond with the Kyoshi warriors, except off screen and we never hear from them again until the very end, after everything is over. It took Zuko ''forever'' to realize that his actions were wrong, and it was a huge payoff when he finally switched sides and it took time for him to be forgiven/accepted. I wouldn't want a huge epic of the Mai and Ty Lee, but a few hints dropped here and there beforehand would have been nice.
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** Long Feng and the Dai Li are obviously an expy of the Communist Party in China. Presumably the members of Dai Li get all sorts of benefits regular citizen's don't get, which would explain why they have remained loyal to the organization. The organization has probably existed for generations (just like the Communist Party), and Long Feng is merely its current leader. They want to keep the King uninformed on anything he might want to exert his power on (not just the war), so that they can keep controlling the society and reap the benefits of their position. The Generals probably co-operate with the Dai Li, and don't want the King to mess with their affairs. One reason why they don't want the King to know about the war is that he's obviously very naive, and would make a terrible Supreme Leader of the Armed Forces (a position that a king would naturally have). And the reason why the Dai Li change sides so easily is exactly what you say above: they come to realize that the war has been fought for decades, Fire Nation has colonized most of Earth Nation, and no one is coming tho help Ba Sing Se, so better side with the likely winner. Keep in mind that the agents of Dai Li are the sort of people who are drawn to power and its benefits, so nationalism matters little to them. The generals, on the other hand, do seem to be more driven by nationalism and honour, so the Dai Li can't count on them to change sides, which is why they have to be removed from the picture. The reason Long Feng keeps on running the city as if nothing's wrong, and doesn't choose to work with Azula with the Dai Li, is that he's probably worked long and hard to get to his top dog position. He's too stubborn and too attached to his power to admit that the Fire Nation has essentially won the war. If the Fire Nation colonizes Bai Sing Se, the position of the ''de facto'' ruler he worked so hard to attain is lost forever.
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** Long Feng and the Dai Li are obviously an expy of the Communist Party in China.China (and possibly the Communist Party in North Korea). Presumably the members of Dai Li get all sorts of benefits regular citizen's don't get, which would explain why they have remained loyal to the organization. The organization has probably existed for generations (just like the Communist Party), and Long Feng is merely its current leader. They The reason the Dai Li have wanted to keep regular citizens uninformed on the war is the same reason the North Korean Communist Party keeps on denying the country is suffering from famines; to admit it would be to admit they are not in full control of things. As for the King, they want to keep the King him uninformed on anything he might want to exert his power on (not just the war), so that they can keep controlling the society and reap the benefits of their position. The Generals probably co-operate with the Dai Li, and don't want the King to mess with their affairs. affairs either. One reason why they don't want the King to know about the war is that he's obviously very naive, and would make a terrible Supreme Leader Commander of the Armed Forces (a position that a king would naturally have). And the reason why the Dai Li change sides so easily is exactly what you say above: they come to realize that the war has been fought for decades, Fire Nation has colonized most of Earth Nation, and no one is coming tho help Ba Sing Se, so better side with the likely winner. Keep in mind that the agents of Dai Li are the sort of people who are drawn to power and its benefits, so nationalism matters little to them. The generals, on the other hand, do seem to be more driven by nationalism and honour, so the Dai Li can't count on them to change sides, which is why they have to be removed from the picture. The reason Long Feng keeps on running the city as if nothing's wrong, and doesn't choose to work with Azula with the rest of Dai Li, is that he's probably worked long and hard to get to his top dog position. He's too stubborn and too attached to his power to admit that the Fire Nation has essentially won the war. (Remember how Azula says that Long Feng doesn't have the innate charisma aristocracs are – according to her – born with. He probably was born into a middle class family, and had to climb his way up the society's ladder.) If the Fire Nation colonizes Bai Sing Se, the position of the ''de facto'' ruler he worked so hard to attain is lost forever.
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Changed line(s) 234 (click to see context) from:
** Long Feng and the Dai Li are obviously an expy of the Communist Party in China. Presumably the members of Dai Li get all sorts of benefits regular citizen's don't get, which would explain why they have remained loyal to the organization. The organization has probably existed for generations (just like the Communist Party), and Long Feng is merely its current leader. They want to keep the King uninformed on anything he might want to exert his power on (not just the war), so that they can keep controlling the society and reap the benefits from their position. The Generals probably co-operate with the Dai Li, and don't want the King to mess with their affairs. One reason why they don't want the King to know about the war is that he's obviously very naive, and would make a terrible Supreme Leader of the Armed Forces (which a King naturally is). And the reason why the Dai Li change sides so easily is exactly what you say above: they've come to realize that the war has been fought for decades, Fire Nation has colonized most of Earth Nation, and no one is coming tho help Ba Sing Se, so better choose the side of the likely winner. Keep in mind that the agents of Dai Li are the sort of people who are drawn to power and its benefits, so nationalism matters little to them. The generals, on the other hand, do seem to be more driven by nationalism and honour, so the Dai Li can't count on them to change sides, which is why they have to be removed from the picture. The reason Long Feng keeps on running the city as if nothing's wrong, and doesn't choose to side with Azula with the Dai Li, is that he's probably worked long and hard to get to his top dog position. He's too stubborn and too attached to his power to admit that the Fire Nation has essentially won the war. If the Fire Nation colonizes Bai Sing Se, the position of the ''de facto'' ruler he worked so hard to attain is lost forever.
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** Long Feng and the Dai Li are obviously an expy of the Communist Party in China. Presumably the members of Dai Li get all sorts of benefits regular citizen's don't get, which would explain why they have remained loyal to the organization. The organization has probably existed for generations (just like the Communist Party), and Long Feng is merely its current leader. They want to keep the King uninformed on anything he might want to exert his power on (not just the war), so that they can keep controlling the society and reap the benefits from of their position. The Generals probably co-operate with the Dai Li, and don't want the King to mess with their affairs. One reason why they don't want the King to know about the war is that he's obviously very naive, and would make a terrible Supreme Leader of the Armed Forces (which (a position that a King king would naturally is). have). And the reason why the Dai Li change sides so easily is exactly what you say above: they've they come to realize that the war has been fought for decades, Fire Nation has colonized most of Earth Nation, and no one is coming tho help Ba Sing Se, so better choose the side of with the likely winner. Keep in mind that the agents of Dai Li are the sort of people who are drawn to power and its benefits, so nationalism matters little to them. The generals, on the other hand, do seem to be more driven by nationalism and honour, so the Dai Li can't count on them to change sides, which is why they have to be removed from the picture. The reason Long Feng keeps on running the city as if nothing's wrong, and doesn't choose to side work with Azula with the Dai Li, is that he's probably worked long and hard to get to his top dog position. He's too stubborn and too attached to his power to admit that the Fire Nation has essentially won the war. If the Fire Nation colonizes Bai Sing Se, the position of the ''de facto'' ruler he worked so hard to attain is lost forever.
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* Forgive me if this has been answered somewhere else, but ''what was the point'' of Long Feng's character besides padding out the Gaang's time in Ba Sing Se? He's running his Orwellian conspiracy to keep the king a puppet, I get, but...how? ''Why?'' Do the generals clearly fighting the war just not notice that the cultural police are denying that there's a war to fight and intimidating the populace into believing the same? Are they somehow unaware that their king somehow hasn't noticed they've been fighting a war for him ''his entire life''? What does anyone gain from the conspiracy, anyway? Long Feng gets to be the power behind the throne at the cost of guaranteed defeat in the war eventually? The Fire Nation's been banging on the walls for a century now and reduced the rest of the Earth Kingdom to ashes or colonies at this point, so there's no reason for the Fire Nation to ''ever'' give up and go home and nobody's coming to help Ba Sing Se. Literally the only point of the conspiracy as far as I can tell is that Long Feng gets to play puppetmaster until he croaks or the Fire Nation arrives and effortlessly conquers the city because of his actively sabotaging the war effort. The Dai Li gain ''nothing'' from following Long Feng's orders, so exactly why they are so loyal to him without being brainwashed is another unanswered question; if they were following him because he was the power behind the throne, there's no reason to remain loyal when he screws up and the jig is up for the conspiracy being kept from the Earth King. Then they also side with Azula over Long Feng, despite the fact that the Dai Li would probably have been better rewarded if they'd turned on both of them and let Long Feng rot and thwarted Azula's attempt at a coup and arrested her. The entire second half of book two only works if you assume all Dai Li are drones that instinctively attach themselves to causes that give them little benefit or have actively been working to hand Ba Sing Se over to the Fire Nation this whole time. Long Feng and his secret police are a walking gang of {{Plot Hole}}s in an otherwise well-told story.
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* Forgive me if this has been answered somewhere else, but ''what was the point'' of Long Feng's character besides padding out the Gaang's time in Ba Sing Se? He's running his Orwellian conspiracy to keep the king a puppet, I get, but...how? ''Why?'' Do the generals clearly fighting the war just not notice that the cultural police are denying that there's a war to fight and intimidating the populace into believing the same? Are they somehow unaware that their king somehow hasn't noticed they've been fighting a war for him ''his entire life''? What does anyone gain from the conspiracy, anyway? Long Feng gets to be the power behind the throne at the cost of guaranteed defeat in the war eventually? The Fire Nation's been banging on the walls for a century now and reduced the rest of the Earth Kingdom to ashes or colonies at this point, so there's no reason for the Fire Nation to ''ever'' give up and go home and nobody's coming to help Ba Sing Se. Literally the only point of the conspiracy as far as I can tell is that Long Feng gets to play puppetmaster until he croaks or the Fire Nation arrives and effortlessly conquers the city because of his actively sabotaging the war effort. The Dai Li gain ''nothing'' from following Long Feng's orders, so exactly why they are so loyal to him without being brainwashed is another unanswered question; if they were following him because he was the power behind the throne, there's no reason to remain loyal when he screws up and the jig is up for the conspiracy being kept from the Earth King. Then they also side with Azula over Long Feng, despite the fact that the Dai Li would probably have been better rewarded if they'd turned on both of them and let Long Feng rot and thwarted Azula's attempt at a coup and arrested her. The entire second half of book two only works if you assume all Dai Li are drones that instinctively attach themselves to causes that give them little benefit or have actively been working to hand Ba Sing Se over to the Fire Nation this whole time. Long Feng and his secret police are a walking gang of {{Plot Hole}}s in an otherwise well-told story.story.
** Long Feng and the Dai Li are obviously an expy of the Communist Party in China. Presumably the members of Dai Li get all sorts of benefits regular citizen's don't get, which would explain why they have remained loyal to the organization. The organization has probably existed for generations (just like the Communist Party), and Long Feng is merely its current leader. They want to keep the King uninformed on anything he might want to exert his power on (not just the war), so that they can keep controlling the society and reap the benefits from their position. The Generals probably co-operate with the Dai Li, and don't want the King to mess with their affairs. One reason why they don't want the King to know about the war is that he's obviously very naive, and would make a terrible Supreme Leader of the Armed Forces (which a King naturally is). And the reason why the Dai Li change sides so easily is exactly what you say above: they've come to realize that the war has been fought for decades, Fire Nation has colonized most of Earth Nation, and no one is coming tho help Ba Sing Se, so better choose the side of the likely winner. Keep in mind that the agents of Dai Li are the sort of people who are drawn to power and its benefits, so nationalism matters little to them. The generals, on the other hand, do seem to be more driven by nationalism and honour, so the Dai Li can't count on them to change sides, which is why they have to be removed from the picture. The reason Long Feng keeps on running the city as if nothing's wrong, and doesn't choose to side with Azula with the Dai Li, is that he's probably worked long and hard to get to his top dog position. He's too stubborn and too attached to his power to admit that the Fire Nation has essentially won the war. If the Fire Nation colonizes Bai Sing Se, the position of the ''de facto'' ruler he worked so hard to attain is lost forever.
** Long Feng and the Dai Li are obviously an expy of the Communist Party in China. Presumably the members of Dai Li get all sorts of benefits regular citizen's don't get, which would explain why they have remained loyal to the organization. The organization has probably existed for generations (just like the Communist Party), and Long Feng is merely its current leader. They want to keep the King uninformed on anything he might want to exert his power on (not just the war), so that they can keep controlling the society and reap the benefits from their position. The Generals probably co-operate with the Dai Li, and don't want the King to mess with their affairs. One reason why they don't want the King to know about the war is that he's obviously very naive, and would make a terrible Supreme Leader of the Armed Forces (which a King naturally is). And the reason why the Dai Li change sides so easily is exactly what you say above: they've come to realize that the war has been fought for decades, Fire Nation has colonized most of Earth Nation, and no one is coming tho help Ba Sing Se, so better choose the side of the likely winner. Keep in mind that the agents of Dai Li are the sort of people who are drawn to power and its benefits, so nationalism matters little to them. The generals, on the other hand, do seem to be more driven by nationalism and honour, so the Dai Li can't count on them to change sides, which is why they have to be removed from the picture. The reason Long Feng keeps on running the city as if nothing's wrong, and doesn't choose to side with Azula with the Dai Li, is that he's probably worked long and hard to get to his top dog position. He's too stubborn and too attached to his power to admit that the Fire Nation has essentially won the war. If the Fire Nation colonizes Bai Sing Se, the position of the ''de facto'' ruler he worked so hard to attain is lost forever.
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*** You bet it would be allowed. Duty/Honor seems more important than family in the Fire Nation's culture, and her uncle the Warden was willing to sacrifice ''himself'' just to insure that no one ever escaped from the Boiling Rock. Given that fact, he definitely would be willing to show his dedication by sentencing his own niece to imprisonment.
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*** You bet it would be allowed. Duty/Honor seems more important than family in the Fire Nation's culture, and her uncle the Warden was willing to sacrifice ''himself'' just to insure that no one ever escaped from the Boiling Rock. Given that fact, he definitely would be willing to show his dedication by sentencing his own niece to imprisonment.imprisonment.
* Forgive me if this has been answered somewhere else, but ''what was the point'' of Long Feng's character besides padding out the Gaang's time in Ba Sing Se? He's running his Orwellian conspiracy to keep the king a puppet, I get, but...how? ''Why?'' Do the generals clearly fighting the war just not notice that the cultural police are denying that there's a war to fight and intimidating the populace into believing the same? Are they somehow unaware that their king somehow hasn't noticed they've been fighting a war for him ''his entire life''? What does anyone gain from the conspiracy, anyway? Long Feng gets to be the power behind the throne at the cost of guaranteed defeat in the war eventually? The Fire Nation's been banging on the walls for a century now and reduced the rest of the Earth Kingdom to ashes or colonies at this point, so there's no reason for the Fire Nation to ''ever'' give up and go home and nobody's coming to help Ba Sing Se. Literally the only point of the conspiracy as far as I can tell is that Long Feng gets to play puppetmaster until he croaks or the Fire Nation arrives and effortlessly conquers the city because of his actively sabotaging the war effort. The Dai Li gain ''nothing'' from following Long Feng's orders, so exactly why they are so loyal to him without being brainwashed is another unanswered question; if they were following him because he was the power behind the throne, there's no reason to remain loyal when he screws up and the jig is up for the conspiracy being kept from the Earth King. Then they also side with Azula over Long Feng, despite the fact that the Dai Li would probably have been better rewarded if they'd turned on both of them and let Long Feng rot and thwarted Azula's attempt at a coup and arrested her. The entire second half of book two only works if you assume all Dai Li are drones that instinctively attach themselves to causes that give them little benefit or have actively been working to hand Ba Sing Se over to the Fire Nation this whole time. Long Feng and his secret police are a walking gang of {{Plot Hole}}s in an otherwise well-told story.
* Forgive me if this has been answered somewhere else, but ''what was the point'' of Long Feng's character besides padding out the Gaang's time in Ba Sing Se? He's running his Orwellian conspiracy to keep the king a puppet, I get, but...how? ''Why?'' Do the generals clearly fighting the war just not notice that the cultural police are denying that there's a war to fight and intimidating the populace into believing the same? Are they somehow unaware that their king somehow hasn't noticed they've been fighting a war for him ''his entire life''? What does anyone gain from the conspiracy, anyway? Long Feng gets to be the power behind the throne at the cost of guaranteed defeat in the war eventually? The Fire Nation's been banging on the walls for a century now and reduced the rest of the Earth Kingdom to ashes or colonies at this point, so there's no reason for the Fire Nation to ''ever'' give up and go home and nobody's coming to help Ba Sing Se. Literally the only point of the conspiracy as far as I can tell is that Long Feng gets to play puppetmaster until he croaks or the Fire Nation arrives and effortlessly conquers the city because of his actively sabotaging the war effort. The Dai Li gain ''nothing'' from following Long Feng's orders, so exactly why they are so loyal to him without being brainwashed is another unanswered question; if they were following him because he was the power behind the throne, there's no reason to remain loyal when he screws up and the jig is up for the conspiracy being kept from the Earth King. Then they also side with Azula over Long Feng, despite the fact that the Dai Li would probably have been better rewarded if they'd turned on both of them and let Long Feng rot and thwarted Azula's attempt at a coup and arrested her. The entire second half of book two only works if you assume all Dai Li are drones that instinctively attach themselves to causes that give them little benefit or have actively been working to hand Ba Sing Se over to the Fire Nation this whole time. Long Feng and his secret police are a walking gang of {{Plot Hole}}s in an otherwise well-told story.
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** We don't see Ozai practicing, but we really don't see Ozai ''at all'' for most of the series. It's only in the third season that he's onscreen, and even that's limited. It's likely that, while he may not have fought in real-life battles, he had constant access to the very best firebending instructors that his nation had to offer for his whole life.
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** If Ozai is indeed that good, how did he get that good? All the other firebending masters in the series have continuously honed their skills in real-life battles (Zuko, Azula, Iroh, Zhao, Jeong Jeong) and/or have found the inner peace required for "true" firebending (the Sun Warriors, Iroh, Zuko). There's no mention of Ozai personally fighting in the war (he seems to prefer sending Iroh or, after she becomes old enough, Azula to fight for him), we never see him practice, and certainly hasn't reached the sort peace of mind Zuko and Iroh did with the Sun Warriors. So how did he become so good?
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** If Ozai is indeed that good, how did he get that good? All the other firebending masters in the series have continuously honed their skills in real-life battles (Zuko, Azula, Iroh, Zhao, Jeong Jeong) and/or have found the inner peace required for "true" firebending (the Sun Warriors, Iroh, Zuko). There's no mention of Ozai personally fighting in the war (he seems to prefer sending Iroh or, after she becomes old enough, Azula to fight for him), we never see him practice, and certainly hasn't reached the sort peace of mind Zuko and Iroh did with the Sun Warriors. So how did he become so good?good? Until the last battle, Ozai's firebending mastery is very much an InformedAbility.
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** If Ozai is indeed that good, how did he get that good? All the other firebending masters in the series have continuously honed their skills in real-life battles (Zuko, Azula, Iroh, Zhao, Jeong Jeong) and/or have found the inner peace required for "true" firebending (the Sun Warriors, Iroh, Zuko). There's no mention of Ozai personally fighting in the war (he seems to prefer sending Iroh or, after she becomes old enough, Azula to fight for him), we never see him practice, and certainly hasn't reached the sort peace of mind Zuko and Iroh did with the Sun Warriors. So how did he become so good?
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*** Exactly. Recall that several episodes earlier Iroh gave Zuko a big angry lecture in which he told Zuko to start thinking about what HE wanted. The problem is that Iroh misjudged what Zuko really wanted. He assumed Zuko would want to settle down and help him run the tea shop, but at his core Zuko always felt that he was cheated out of his birthright when his father banished him. He lost his title, his home, his honor, and, yes, his royal authority and he wanted it all back. He was only willing to set that desire aside when it looked like there was no chance of ever getting it back. Then Azula came along and presented him with the chance to reclaim the very thing he'd spent the past few ''years'' of his life trying to obtain. Is it really so surprising that he grabbed it with both hands?
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** In martial arts there are certain schools of thought which teach that you'll be much better off focusing on the basics than trying to learn "advanced" moves. Bruce Lee once said "I fear not the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks once. But I fear the man who has practiced one kick ten thousand times." Basically, Iroh was trying to train Zuko to be TheMario of firebending.
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** Plus what I noticed is that whenever someone mentions it to him directly (like Jet, Song, Lee, or Azula) he just freezes up and doesn't say anything. I think maybe he wants to say something about it at other times but when someone actually mentions it, it just thorws him off gaurd and they wouldn't make him bring it up randomly out of nowhere so the best time to make him mention it is when someone makes an indirect comment.
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*** .....yes. Because Mai ''says'' that her uncle was the warden of the prison she was at.
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*** Isn't that where her uncle works? Would that be allowed?
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*** Isn't that where her uncle works? Would that be allowed?allowed?
*** .....yes. Because Mai ''says'' that her uncle was the warden of the prison she was at.
*** .....yes. Because Mai ''says'' that her uncle was the warden of the prison she was at.
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** Also, it's implied that Mai did time at the Boiling Rock instead of wherever the Kyoshi Warriors were being kept.
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*** They didn't just hang around, they attacked the Gaang (The Chase, Return to Omashu, etc) but it's true that they had less of an impact on them than Zuko did. I didn't mean there wasn't a reason to bond with the Kyoshi warriors, just that we never saw/heard of it until it was all over. Maybe just one little scene where Azula inquires about how her ex-friends are doing...or a brief peek where the girls (or just Ty Lee, if Mai went someplace else) met the warriors would have been nice. Oh well.
** Also, it's implied that Mai did time at the Boiling Rock instead of wherever the Kyoshi Warriors were beingkept.kept.
*** Isn't that where her uncle works? Would that be allowed?
** Also, it's implied that Mai did time at the Boiling Rock instead of wherever the Kyoshi Warriors were being
*** Isn't that where her uncle works? Would that be allowed?
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** Mai's main schtick is that she wants to be entertained. She ''needs'' no other reason to switch sides other than "boning and being boned by Zuko is more appealing than working for Azula." And Ty Lee was never shown to be a ''bad'' person. She's just doing stuff to help her friend. After the Gaang forgave Zuko, who had an active hand in their lives being near-ruined, I'm pretty sure thay'd be fine with those two girls who just hung around. Also, there's enough reason there to "bond" with the Kyoshi Warriors. "Hey, you know that girl who shackled your leader up and carted her off to a hell-hole prison? I totally sneak-attack crippled her, because she was a bitch." "Cool."
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** Mai's main schtick is that she wants to be entertained. She ''needs'' no other reason to switch sides other than "boning and being boned by Zuko is more appealing than working for Azula." And Ty Lee was never shown to be a ''bad'' person. She's just doing stuff to help her friend. After the Gaang forgave Zuko, who had an active hand in their lives being near-ruined, I'm pretty sure thay'd be fine with those two girls who just hung around. Also, there's enough reason there to "bond" with the Kyoshi Warriors. "Hey, you know that girl who shackled your leader up and carted her off to a hell-hole prison? I totally sneak-attack crippled her, because she was a bitch." "Cool.""
** Also, it's implied that Mai did time at the Boiling Rock instead of wherever the Kyoshi Warriors were being kept.
** Also, it's implied that Mai did time at the Boiling Rock instead of wherever the Kyoshi Warriors were being kept.
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** 1: Azula's blue fire is just different, not necesarily better. Zuko's run-of-the-mill fire evenly matched it, so it looks like a purely aesthetic choice. 2: We've only seen Ozai in one fight. A fight thatt, by the nature of the show, he ''had'' to lose. 3: He ''is'' more powerful than Azula. It takes Azula a good three or four seconds of doing a ''kata'' to charge up and fire lightning. Ozai just has to swing his arms around in an arc. Plus, he's the only one who did double-handed lightning in the entire series.
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** 1: Azula's blue fire is just different, not necesarily necessarily better. Zuko's run-of-the-mill fire evenly matched it, so it looks like a purely aesthetic choice. 2: We've only seen Ozai in one fight. A fight thatt, that, by the nature of the show, he ''had'' to lose. 3: He ''is'' more powerful than Azula. It takes Azula a good three or four seconds of doing a ''kata'' to charge up and fire lightning. Ozai just has to swing his arms around in an arc. Plus, he's the only one who did double-handed lightning in the entire series.
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* This troper was always a bit annoyed with how lightly Mai and Ty Lee got off in the show. No, not with ''Azula'' - I mean with the rest of the characters. Mai and Ty Lee have been beside Azula since they were kids, and apathy/perkiness or not, they helped her ''topple cities'' and ''kidnap kings'', probably among other war crimes. And when they finally have their big betrayal, it's not because they realize what they're doing is wrong, it's because Mai loves Zuko and Ty Lee loves Mai (more than Azula). And then they go to some prison where they bond with the Kyoshi warriors, except off screen and we never hear from them again until the very end, after everything is over. It took Zuko ''forever'' to realize that his actions were wrong, and it was a huge payoff when he finally switched sides and it took time for him to be forgiven/accepted. I wouldn't want a huge epic of the Mai and Ty Lee, but a few hints dropped here and there beforehand would have been nice.
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* This troper was always a bit annoyed with how lightly Mai and Ty Lee got off in the show. No, not with ''Azula'' - I mean with the rest of the characters. Mai and Ty Lee have been beside Azula since they were kids, and apathy/perkiness or not, they helped her ''topple cities'' and ''kidnap kings'', probably among other war crimes. And when they finally have their big betrayal, it's not because they realize what they're doing is wrong, it's because Mai loves Zuko and Ty Lee loves Mai (more than Azula). And then they go to some prison where they bond with the Kyoshi warriors, except off screen and we never hear from them again until the very end, after everything is over. It took Zuko ''forever'' to realize that his actions were wrong, and it was a huge payoff when he finally switched sides and it took time for him to be forgiven/accepted. I wouldn't want a huge epic of the Mai and Ty Lee, but a few hints dropped here and there beforehand would have been nice.nice.
** Mai's main schtick is that she wants to be entertained. She ''needs'' no other reason to switch sides other than "boning and being boned by Zuko is more appealing than working for Azula." And Ty Lee was never shown to be a ''bad'' person. She's just doing stuff to help her friend. After the Gaang forgave Zuko, who had an active hand in their lives being near-ruined, I'm pretty sure thay'd be fine with those two girls who just hung around. Also, there's enough reason there to "bond" with the Kyoshi Warriors. "Hey, you know that girl who shackled your leader up and carted her off to a hell-hole prison? I totally sneak-attack crippled her, because she was a bitch." "Cool."
** Mai's main schtick is that she wants to be entertained. She ''needs'' no other reason to switch sides other than "boning and being boned by Zuko is more appealing than working for Azula." And Ty Lee was never shown to be a ''bad'' person. She's just doing stuff to help her friend. After the Gaang forgave Zuko, who had an active hand in their lives being near-ruined, I'm pretty sure thay'd be fine with those two girls who just hung around. Also, there's enough reason there to "bond" with the Kyoshi Warriors. "Hey, you know that girl who shackled your leader up and carted her off to a hell-hole prison? I totally sneak-attack crippled her, because she was a bitch." "Cool."
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*** Yes, mischaracterizing them, as in apparently misunderstanding what happened in those episodes by leaving out crucial context that handily explains the discrepancies you're seeing.
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*** Yes, mischaracterizing them, as in apparently misunderstanding what happened in those episodes by leaving out crucial context that handily explains the discrepancies you're seeing.seeing.
* This troper was always a bit annoyed with how lightly Mai and Ty Lee got off in the show. No, not with ''Azula'' - I mean with the rest of the characters. Mai and Ty Lee have been beside Azula since they were kids, and apathy/perkiness or not, they helped her ''topple cities'' and ''kidnap kings'', probably among other war crimes. And when they finally have their big betrayal, it's not because they realize what they're doing is wrong, it's because Mai loves Zuko and Ty Lee loves Mai (more than Azula). And then they go to some prison where they bond with the Kyoshi warriors, except off screen and we never hear from them again until the very end, after everything is over. It took Zuko ''forever'' to realize that his actions were wrong, and it was a huge payoff when he finally switched sides and it took time for him to be forgiven/accepted. I wouldn't want a huge epic of the Mai and Ty Lee, but a few hints dropped here and there beforehand would have been nice.
* This troper was always a bit annoyed with how lightly Mai and Ty Lee got off in the show. No, not with ''Azula'' - I mean with the rest of the characters. Mai and Ty Lee have been beside Azula since they were kids, and apathy/perkiness or not, they helped her ''topple cities'' and ''kidnap kings'', probably among other war crimes. And when they finally have their big betrayal, it's not because they realize what they're doing is wrong, it's because Mai loves Zuko and Ty Lee loves Mai (more than Azula). And then they go to some prison where they bond with the Kyoshi warriors, except off screen and we never hear from them again until the very end, after everything is over. It took Zuko ''forever'' to realize that his actions were wrong, and it was a huge payoff when he finally switched sides and it took time for him to be forgiven/accepted. I wouldn't want a huge epic of the Mai and Ty Lee, but a few hints dropped here and there beforehand would have been nice.
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** Yeah, and wouldn't it be nice if the viewer didn't have to infer all of that?
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** Yeah, and wouldn't it be nice if the viewer didn't have to infer all of that?
that?
*** Actually, the base for good story telling is "show, don´t tell". The series has shown compelling characters, but due to time and budget constraints, it can´t flesh out each and everyone of them. The Troper above, for example, had his/her imagination ignited by the Suki character, and that´s a good thing!
*** Actually, the base for good story telling is "show, don´t tell". The series has shown compelling characters, but due to time and budget constraints, it can´t flesh out each and everyone of them. The Troper above, for example, had his/her imagination ignited by the Suki character, and that´s a good thing!
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*** Mischaracterizing them? I'm not a literary theorist, I'm just a fan of the show. In fact, I really really enjoyed it for the most part, it was just the portrayal of Azula as mega-super, be-all-end-all badass that bothered me. I understand that every plot needs a villain, and that the villain needs to be a credible threat, but I felt the way they did it was clumsy.
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*** Mischaracterizing them? I'm not a literary theorist, I'm just a fan of the show. In fact, I really really enjoyed it for the most part, it was just the portrayal of Azula as mega-super, be-all-end-all badass that bothered me. I understand that every plot needs a villain, and that the villain needs to be a credible threat, but I felt the way they did it was clumsy.clumsy.
*** Yes, mischaracterizing them, as in apparently misunderstanding what happened in those episodes by leaving out crucial context that handily explains the discrepancies you're seeing.
*** Yes, mischaracterizing them, as in apparently misunderstanding what happened in those episodes by leaving out crucial context that handily explains the discrepancies you're seeing.
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Iraq War ended in 2010.
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*** The US is at war with Iraq right now. Does that mean that president Obama would be under no guard whatsoever? There would have to be a guard over the Fire Nation Palace, in case, I don't know, ''maybe the Avatar shows up to kick Ozai's face in'', perhaps? They know the Avatar exists, so they ''know'' he's going to confront Ozai at some point. Knowing how powerful the Avatar is, they'd have to be terminally retarded to ''not'' keep a strong garrison around in case the Avatar does aim for the exact decapitation strike you're suggesting. And just because they brought some troops in to protect the capital, it doesn't mean that they leave the capital ''completely unguarded.''
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*** The US is at war with Iraq Afghanistan right now. Does that mean that president Obama would be under no guard whatsoever? There would have to be a guard over the Fire Nation Palace, in case, I don't know, ''maybe the Avatar shows up to kick Ozai's face in'', perhaps? They know the Avatar exists, so they ''know'' he's going to confront Ozai at some point. Knowing how powerful the Avatar is, they'd have to be terminally retarded to ''not'' keep a strong garrison around in case the Avatar does aim for the exact decapitation strike you're suggesting. And just because they brought some troops in to protect the capital, it doesn't mean that they leave the capital ''completely unguarded.''
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There's no real comparison between the scenarios you're citing as proof she's a "VillainSue". They're completely unrelated, separate, and unique scenarios.
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There's no real comparison between the scenarios you're citing as proof she's a "VillainSue". They're completely unrelated, separate, and unique scenarios.scenarios.
*** Mischaracterizing them? I'm not a literary theorist, I'm just a fan of the show. In fact, I really really enjoyed it for the most part, it was just the portrayal of Azula as mega-super, be-all-end-all badass that bothered me. I understand that every plot needs a villain, and that the villain needs to be a credible threat, but I felt the way they did it was clumsy.
*** Mischaracterizing them? I'm not a literary theorist, I'm just a fan of the show. In fact, I really really enjoyed it for the most part, it was just the portrayal of Azula as mega-super, be-all-end-all badass that bothered me. I understand that every plot needs a villain, and that the villain needs to be a credible threat, but I felt the way they did it was clumsy.
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** Yeah, I think this is a simple case of ValuesDissonance (perhaps on multiple levels). In RealLife casting the eyes downward would be considered an act of submission, but on the show it seems that people mostly look each other in the eye. As far Hakoda casting his eyes downward- it doesn't matter in what direction he cast his eyes because the warden had ''issued an order'' and Hakoda ''refused to comply''.
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** Yeah, I think this is a simple case of ValuesDissonance (perhaps on multiple levels). In RealLife casting the eyes downward would be considered an act of submission, but on the show it seems that people mostly look each other in the eye. As far Hakoda casting his eyes downward- it doesn't matter in what direction he cast his eyes because the warden had ''issued an order'' and Hakoda ''refused to comply''.
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** This troper saw it explained in a fanfic as it being that in the Water Tribe you only meet someone's eye if you respect them, see them as equals. Hakoda deliberately avoiding the Warden's gaze - and once he does, tripping him up on his handcuffs - was portrayed as a simple indication that the Warden is nothing to him.
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** His improvements don't really give him much of a basis to claim he'd become 'better' than Azula, and it would have been foolish (and ignore his character development) for him to assume it had. And there's no way years of seeing his sister as the gifted, vicious, favoured child that she is would vanish immediately upon Zuko's own personal rediscovery of firebending. What Zuko does instead is that the evidence of Azula's breakdown and use what he has become comfident in - the Dancing Dragon form is clearly used - to calmly face her. His choice of taking Katara, acknowledging that he would need help, was responsible. The fact he chose to tell her to stay out of the way for her safety only furthers that; he's not willing to let people get hurt needlessly.
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*** My first impression is that you are all overthinking this a bit to much. We've got months to sit and debate Zuko's motivations, whereas he had a few minutes at the most, and probaly more like a few seconds, to evaluate Azula's impending defeat and act accordingly. I doubt anyone would disagree with me when I say that the entire FN royal family is a little off-kilter, so its seems reasonable that Zuko would be obsessed with finding/capturing/defeating the avatar. And I mean obsessed in the strictly clinical definition that he can literaly think of NOTHING else. As another troper pointed out, Zuko is not exactly a strategic mastermind or a revolutionary thinker; he tends to accept things as presented to him and then block out anything that contradicts that. He's been relentlessly pursuing the avatar for years, repeatedly risking his life and focusing on nothing else, and here he is with his enemy, the source of all his problems, right in front of him. He doesnt think about the broader implications, the consequences, or any of the Azula vs Iroh vs Ozai conflicts; he's just goes with that is the familiar, comfortable patern that is all he really knows. Also, while Azula is a schemer, Ozai is a conquerer, and Iroh is a crafty mentor, at this point in the series we've only just started seeing Zuko's character development and he still fits firmly under the archetype of "soldier". Some one who does what he's ordered, without question, and achieves his objective no matter the cost. Its only after he succeeds in getting everything he always wanted (i.e. his "mission" is complete) that his mind has time to stop and evalutate how it turned out, and he starts to question if what he got was really what he wanted. In a way, he's stuck as the same person for a long time, and in a moment of character weakness he CANT break out of that, until that reason for existing no longer exists.
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*** My first impression is that you are all overthinking this a bit to much. We've got months to sit and debate Zuko's motivations, whereas he had a few minutes at the most, and probaly more like a few seconds, to evaluate Azula's impending defeat and act accordingly. I doubt anyone would disagree with me when I say that the entire FN royal family is a little off-kilter, so its seems reasonable that Zuko would be obsessed with finding/capturing/defeating the avatar. And I mean obsessed in the strictly clinical definition that he can literaly think of NOTHING else. As another troper pointed out, Zuko is not exactly a strategic mastermind or a revolutionary thinker; he tends to accept things as presented to him and then block out anything that contradicts that. He's been relentlessly pursuing the avatar for years, repeatedly risking his life and focusing on nothing else, and here he is with his enemy, the source of all his problems, right in front of him. He doesnt think about the broader implications, the consequences, or any of the Azula vs Iroh vs Ozai conflicts; he's just goes with that is the familiar, comfortable patern that is all he really knows.has defined a significant portion of his life up until this point. Also, while Azula is a schemer, Ozai is a conquerer, and Iroh is a crafty mentor, at this point in the series we've only just started seeing Zuko's character development and he still fits firmly under the archetype of "soldier". Some one who does what he's ordered, without question, and achieves his objective no matter the cost. Its only after he succeeds in getting everything he always wanted (i.e. his "mission" is complete) that his mind has time to stop and evalutate how it turned out, and he starts to question if what he got was really what he wanted. In a way, he's stuck as the same person for a long time, and in a moment of character weakness he CANT break out of that, until that reason for existing no longer exists.
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Changed line(s) 138,139 (click to see context) from:
*** My first impression is that you are all overthinking this a bit to much. We've got months to sit and debate Zuko's motivations, whereas he had a few minutes at the most, and probaly more like a few seconds, to evaluate Azula's impending defeat and act accordingly. I doubt anyone would disagree with me when I say that the entire FN royal family is a little off-kilter, so its seems reasonable that Zuko would be obsessed with finding/capturing/defeating the avatar. And I mean obsessed in the strictly clinical definition that he can literaly think of NOTHING else. As another troper pointed out, Zuko is not exactly a strategic mastermind or a revolutionary thinker; he tends to accept things as presented to him and then block out anything that contradicts that. He's been relentlessly pursuing the avatar for years, repeatedly risking his life and focusing on nothing else, and here he is with his enemy, the source of all his problems, right in front of him. He doesnt think about the broader implications, the consequences, or any of the Azula vs Iroh vs Ozai conflicts; he's just goes with that is the familiar, comfortable patern that is all he really knows.
Also, while Azula is a schemer, Ozai is a conquerer, and Iroh is a crafty mentor, at this point in the series we've only just started seeing Zuko's character development and he still fits firmly under the archetype of "soldier". Some one who does what he's ordered, without question, and achieves his objective no matter the cost. Its only after he succeeds in getting everything he always wanted (i.e. his "mission" is complete) that his mind has time to stop and evalutate how it turned out, and he starts to question if what he got was really what he wanted. In a way, he's stuck as the same person for a long time, and in a moment of character weakness he CANT break out of that, until that reason for existing no longer exists.
Also, while Azula is a schemer, Ozai is a conquerer, and Iroh is a crafty mentor, at this point in the series we've only just started seeing Zuko's character development and he still fits firmly under the archetype of "soldier". Some one who does what he's ordered, without question, and achieves his objective no matter the cost. Its only after he succeeds in getting everything he always wanted (i.e. his "mission" is complete) that his mind has time to stop and evalutate how it turned out, and he starts to question if what he got was really what he wanted. In a way, he's stuck as the same person for a long time, and in a moment of character weakness he CANT break out of that, until that reason for existing no longer exists.
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*** My first impression is that you are all overthinking this a bit to much. We've got months to sit and debate Zuko's motivations, whereas he had a few minutes at the most, and probaly more like a few seconds, to evaluate Azula's impending defeat and act accordingly. I doubt anyone would disagree with me when I say that the entire FN royal family is a little off-kilter, so its seems reasonable that Zuko would be obsessed with finding/capturing/defeating the avatar. And I mean obsessed in the strictly clinical definition that he can literaly think of NOTHING else. As another troper pointed out, Zuko is not exactly a strategic mastermind or a revolutionary thinker; he tends to accept things as presented to him and then block out anything that contradicts that. He's been relentlessly pursuing the avatar for years, repeatedly risking his life and focusing on nothing else, and here he is with his enemy, the source of all his problems, right in front of him. He doesnt think about the broader implications, the consequences, or any of the Azula vs Iroh vs Ozai conflicts; he's just goes with that is the familiar, comfortable patern that is all he really knows.
knows. Also, while Azula is a schemer, Ozai is a conquerer, and Iroh is a crafty mentor, at this point in the series we've only just started seeing Zuko's character development and he still fits firmly under the archetype of "soldier". Some one who does what he's ordered, without question, and achieves his objective no matter the cost. Its only after he succeeds in getting everything he always wanted (i.e. his "mission" is complete) that his mind has time to stop and evalutate how it turned out, and he starts to question if what he got was really what he wanted. In a way, he's stuck as the same person for a long time, and in a moment of character weakness he CANT break out of that, until that reason for existing no longer exists.
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further debate, clarification
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*** My first impression is that you are all overthinking this a bit to much. We've got months to sit and debate Zuko's motivations, whereas he had a few minutes at the most, and probaly more like a few seconds, to evaluate Azula's impending defeat and act accordingly. I doubt anyone would disagree with me when I say that the entire FN royal family is a little off-kilter, so its seems reasonable that Zuko would be obsessed with finding/capturing/defeating the avatar. And I mean obsessed in the strictly clinical definition that he can literaly think of NOTHING else. As another troper pointed out, Zuko is not exactly a strategic mastermind or a revolutionary thinker; he tends to accept things as presented to him and then block out anything that contradicts that. He's been relentlessly pursuing the avatar for years, repeatedly risking his life and focusing on nothing else, and here he is with his enemy, the source of all his problems, right in front of him. He doesnt think about the broader implications, the consequences, or any of the Azula vs Iroh vs Ozai conflicts; he's just goes with that is the familiar, comfortable patern that is all he really knows.
Also, while Azula is a schemer, Ozai is a conquerer, and Iroh is a crafty mentor, at this point in the series we've only just started seeing Zuko's character development and he still fits firmly under the archetype of "soldier". Some one who does what he's ordered, without question, and achieves his objective no matter the cost. Its only after he succeeds in getting everything he always wanted (i.e. his "mission" is complete) that his mind has time to stop and evalutate how it turned out, and he starts to question if what he got was really what he wanted. In a way, he's stuck as the same person for a long time, and in a moment of character weakness he CANT break out of that, until that reason for existing no longer exists.
Also, while Azula is a schemer, Ozai is a conquerer, and Iroh is a crafty mentor, at this point in the series we've only just started seeing Zuko's character development and he still fits firmly under the archetype of "soldier". Some one who does what he's ordered, without question, and achieves his objective no matter the cost. Its only after he succeeds in getting everything he always wanted (i.e. his "mission" is complete) that his mind has time to stop and evalutate how it turned out, and he starts to question if what he got was really what he wanted. In a way, he's stuck as the same person for a long time, and in a moment of character weakness he CANT break out of that, until that reason for existing no longer exists.
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* Am I the only one who is upset by Azula's informed badassery? She supposedly this brilliant leader, awesome firebender and genius, but all I ever see is the heroes becoming complete idiots whenever she comes around. Not only do they become idiots, they become obviously weaker at the skills we've seen them do before. Aang was able to destroy an entire Fire Nation armada in the Avatar State, but Azula can take him down in one shot. Iroh is able to take her down effortlessly in her first on-screen fight with Zuko, but then she's able to defeat him with Aang, Katara, Zuko and Sokka running back up. Is there such a thing as "Villain Sue"? Because Azula sure fits that description, if you ask me.
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* Am I the only one who is upset by Azula's informed badassery? She supposedly this brilliant leader, awesome firebender and genius, but all I ever see is the heroes becoming complete idiots whenever she comes around. Not only do they become idiots, they become obviously weaker at the skills we've seen them do before. Aang was able to destroy an entire Fire Nation armada in the Avatar State, but Azula can take him down in one shot. Iroh is able to take her down effortlessly in her first on-screen fight with Zuko, but then she's able to defeat him with Aang, Katara, Zuko and Sokka running back up. Is there such a thing as "Villain Sue"? Because Azula sure fits that description, if you ask me.me.
** You're describing ''completely'' different situations as if they're the same, and you're totally mischaracterizing them at that. When Aang destroyed the Fire Nation fleet, he was working with a spirit which had immense power, and nobody was around to hit him directly; in the second season finale, Azula hit him with lightning (which is treated as a one-shot kill unless you redirect it) from behind while he was standing completely still, and before he actually ''did'' anything besides glow and float.\\\
In the Iroh's case, Iroh didn't "take her down," he deflected one attack, knocked her over, and ''ran away'' with Zuko; and as you mentioned, it's her on-screen fight with ''Zuko'', not with Iroh. Later, she doesn't "defeat him," she hits him with a cheap shot while he's distracted and then uses that distraction to run the hell away.\\\
There's no real comparison between the scenarios you're citing as proof she's a "VillainSue". They're completely unrelated, separate, and unique scenarios.
** You're describing ''completely'' different situations as if they're the same, and you're totally mischaracterizing them at that. When Aang destroyed the Fire Nation fleet, he was working with a spirit which had immense power, and nobody was around to hit him directly; in the second season finale, Azula hit him with lightning (which is treated as a one-shot kill unless you redirect it) from behind while he was standing completely still, and before he actually ''did'' anything besides glow and float.\\\
In the Iroh's case, Iroh didn't "take her down," he deflected one attack, knocked her over, and ''ran away'' with Zuko; and as you mentioned, it's her on-screen fight with ''Zuko'', not with Iroh. Later, she doesn't "defeat him," she hits him with a cheap shot while he's distracted and then uses that distraction to run the hell away.\\\
There's no real comparison between the scenarios you're citing as proof she's a "VillainSue". They're completely unrelated, separate, and unique scenarios.
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* Am I the only one who is upset by Azula's informed badassery? She supposedly this brilliant leader, awesome firebender and genius, but all I ever see is the heroes becoming complete idiots whenever she comes around. Not only do they become idiots, they become obviously weaker at the skills we've seen them do before. Aang was able to destroy an entire Fire Nation armada in the Avatar State, but Azula can take him down in one shot. Iroh is able to take her down effortlessly in her first on-screen fight with Zuko, but then she's able to defeat him with Aang, Katara, Zuko and Sokka running back up. Is there such a thing as "Villain Sue"? Because Azula sure fits that description, if you ask me.
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**** Azula's firebending IS hotter according to the WordOfGod. And it is more powerful compared to most other masters.(Most other masters can't use firebending to fly without Sozin's Comet) So it definitely isn't just an aesthetic choice.
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Removing Wall Banger wick
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* How did the Dai Li keep the war secret for so long? This troper could understand if they only kept it secret from a small middle class and the king, but it seems to be suggested that it's kept secret from the entire city. Considering the needs to raise an army, the logistics needed to support it, the fact that Iroh nearly broke through and the sheer number of refugees flooding in this turns into a DarthWiki/WallBanger.
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* How did the Dai Li keep the war secret for so long? This troper could understand if they only kept it secret from a small middle class and the king, but it seems to be suggested that it's kept secret from the entire city. Considering the needs to raise an army, the logistics needed to support it, the fact that Iroh nearly broke through and the sheer number of refugees flooding in this turns into a DarthWiki/WallBanger.an issue.
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** Frankly, a bigger DarthWiki/WallBanger would be the fact that '''Katara''' never thought to mention the fake Kyoshi warriors.
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** Frankly, a bigger DarthWiki/WallBanger problem would be the fact that '''Katara''' never thought to mention the fake Kyoshi warriors.
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**Also, Ty Lee was NOT kept at the Boiling Rock. If she was, how could she have "bonded" with the Kyoshi Warriors, who were previously stated to be elsewhere? Presumably, she was brought to a less overall secure prison, but one without what is essentially a neon-lit escape route for someone of her ability.
