Follow TV Tropes

Following

History AlternativeCharacterInterpretation / HarryPotter

Go To

OR

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Is he as talented and adept at magic as everyone seems to think he is? He's credited with defeating Voldemort, but the first time he did it he was an infant and it was through his mother's HeroicSacrifice, and the second time [[spoiler:he mostly took advantage of Voldemort's inability to [[WhatIsThisThingYouCallLove understand love]] and otherwise followed Dumbledore's carefully laid plans]]. Some critics suggest that many of his victories were only based on luck (or Dumbledore's {{Batman Gambit}}s) as opposed to great skill with magic. Interestingly, Harry ''himself'' believes the former, only for Ron and Hermione to insist that these events also showed a bravery and resourcefulness that others don't have.

to:

** Is he as talented and adept at magic as everyone seems to think he is? He's credited with defeating Voldemort, but the first time he did it he was an infant and it was through his mother's HeroicSacrifice, and the second time [[spoiler:he mostly took advantage of Voldemort's inability to [[WhatIsThisThingYouCallLove understand love]] and otherwise followed Dumbledore's carefully laid plans]]. Some critics suggest that many of his victories were only based on luck (or Dumbledore's {{Batman Gambit}}s) as opposed to great skill with magic. Interestingly, Harry ''himself'' believes in the former, fifth book that he only made it so far because he got lucky, only for Ron and Hermione to insist that these events also showed a bravery and resourcefulness that others don't have.



** With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, they [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude ''actually'' genuine? Are the house-elves just saying they're fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can't fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long that [[NotUsedToFreedom they wouldn't know what they would do if they were freed]]? Even Dobby's idea of freedom isn't "not working", but "not working for the Malfoys", and he happily works for Dumbledore while insisting on being paid less than he was offered, which raises its own questions -- is he genuinely conditioned not to want too much money, or does he just not want the other house-elves to turn on him? Hermione's own theory is that they're [[StockholmSyndrome psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], which is something [[TruthInTelevision that can happen to slaves in real life]], and there's a lot to wonder about -- including house-elves' habit of [[SelfHarm physically punishing themselves]] for failing their masters.
** The other question is what to make of wizards who seem okay with this sort of thing. Hermione seems to be the only one who's utterly horrified at their treatment. Is there something that she's missing, or is the Wizarding world -- which has [[FantasticRacism never had a reputation for open-mindedness]] -- just not thinking about it too hard and accepting the house-elves' claims at face value? Furthermore, even if Hermione is right, is her methodology appropriate? Consider how offended the house-elves are when she starts leaving hats and socks for them to find as a means of tricking them into freedom -- if it works, and they are released from Dumbledore's employment, they may just wander off to work for someone else, who's very likely not to be as kind to them as Dumbledore. It is a recurring theme among house-elves (as seen with Kreacher's treatment of the heroes) that they're much more likely not to betray you [[BecauseYouWereNiceToMe the better you treat them]].
* Why did Petunia and Vernon Dursley even take Harry in? Was it because deep down, Petunia really did care about her sister Lily and wish to protect her son? Or did Dumbledore badger them into doing it? Harry was a literal DoorstopBaby, and the only explanation as to why he was there was a letter Dumbledore left explaining what had happened to Harry's parents -- a letter which described them as having been killed by an evil wizard who will kill them too, but if they take in the kid they get magical protection from said evil wizard. How is a Muggle family going to react to that? Why would they believe that? (More importantly, why would the old reactionary ''Vernon'' believe that?) Why wouldn't they go to the Muggle police, or at the very least ask Dumbledore for some clarification? Petunia does prevent Vernon from actually kicking Harry out, but that could be for either one of the above reasons.

to:

** With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, they [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude ''actually'' genuine? Are the house-elves just saying they're fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can't fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long that [[NotUsedToFreedom they wouldn't know what they would do if they were freed]]? Even Dobby's idea of freedom isn't "not working", but "not working for the Malfoys", and as he happily works for Dumbledore while insisting on being paid less than he was offered, which offered. However, this raises its own questions -- is he genuinely conditioned not to want too much money, or does he just not want the other house-elves to turn on him? him since they already consider him a weirdo for being happy as a free house-elf? Hermione's own theory is that they're [[StockholmSyndrome psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], which is something [[TruthInTelevision that can happen to slaves in real life]], and there's a lot to wonder about if it is true -- including the house-elves' habit of [[SelfHarm physically punishing themselves]] for failing their masters.
** The other question is what to make of wizards who seem okay with this sort of thing. Hermione seems to be the only one who's utterly horrified at their treatment. Is there something that she's missing, or is the Wizarding world World -- which has [[FantasticRacism never had a reputation for open-mindedness]] -- just not thinking about it too hard and accepting the house-elves' claims at face value? Furthermore, even if Hermione is right, is her methodology appropriate? Consider how offended the Hogwarts house-elves are when she starts leaving hats and socks for them to find as a means of tricking them into freedom -- if it works, and they are released from Dumbledore's employment, they may just wander off to work for someone else, who's very likely not to be as kind to them as Dumbledore.Dumbledore. This means that potentially Hermione was doing [[NiceJobBreakingItHero much more harm than good]]if this plan had succeeded. It is a recurring theme among house-elves (as seen with Kreacher's treatment of the heroes) that they're much more likely not to betray you [[BecauseYouWereNiceToMe the better you treat them]].
* Why did Petunia and Vernon Dursley even take Harry in? Was it because deep down, Petunia really did care about her sister Lily and wish to protect her son? Or did Dumbledore badger them into doing it? Harry was a literal DoorstopBaby, and the only explanation as to why he was there was a letter Dumbledore left explaining what had happened to Harry's parents -- a letter which described them as having been killed by an evil wizard who will kill them too, but if they take in the kid they get magical protection from said evil wizard. How is a Muggle family going to react to that? Why would they believe that? (More More importantly, why would the old reactionary ''Vernon'' believe that?) that? Why wouldn't they go to the Muggle police, police (since if you find an abandoned child, especially a baby, you’re supposed to report it to the authorities), or at the very least ask Dumbledore for some clarification? Petunia does prevent Vernon from actually kicking Harry out, but that could be for either one of the above reasons.

Added: 1177

Changed: 45162

Removed: 10704

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Re the goalkeeping note: Proof that Marc-Andre Fleury uses Felix Felicis. They make it there — that's why there are so many casinos. It was stolen in Game 6 in the biggest heist Vegas had seen since Ocean's 11 and used in the following deciding game. IT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING I TELLS YA


** Is Harry TheHero and [[MessianicArchetype a genuine saviour]], or is he a trust-fund orphan whose {{deceased parents|arethebest}} give him license to [[ItsAllAboutMe dismiss everyone else's problems as unimportant]]? Or is he a nice guy but just a poorly executed one? The first time he defeated Voldemort was through no action of his own, and [[spoiler:the second time was mostly taking advantage of Voldemort's inability to [[WhatIsThisThingYouCallLove understand love]] and he simply followed Dumbledore's plans]]. Some critics suggest that many of his victories were only based on luck (or Dumbledore's {{Batman Gambit}}s) as opposed to great skill with magic. Interestingly, Harry ''himself'' believes the former, only for Ron and Hermione to insist that these events also showed a bravery and resourcefulness that others don't have.
** Many also question if Harry actually is a good friend. Some have argued that Harry is a HollywoodNerd who is [[http://www.cracked.com/funny-8720-harry-potter/ fundamentally a jock]], who likes sports and girls, coasts off Hermione for his homework yet refuses to listen to her and even dismisses her when he wishes to [[note]]For instance, in ''Deathly Hallows'', Harry privately concurs with Xenophilius Lovegood that Hermione is "narrow-minded," and while he agrees later that Hermione was right about the Hallows, he does not apologize to her[[/note]] and moreover has severe MoralMyopia when it comes to class and school discipline (i.e. his insensitivity to Ron, and his plagiarism of the Prince's notebook in Book 6, poor sportsmanship). Such fans also raise eyebrows to Harry/Hermione ShippingGoggles since Harry in the books does not really come across as a very good friend to her [[note]](taking Ron's side in Book 3, [[UngratefulBastard he got mad at her for reporting the Firebolt anomously sent to him to [=McGonagall=] despite that it was a big red flag]] (To be fair, [[WhatTheHellHero Hagrid did call him out for that]]), and generally getting very morose and depressed whenever he and Ron fight, but taking Hermione for granted and moreover not showing the slightest remorse or consideration about how his use of the Prince Textbook is unfairly giving him an advantage over Hermione's labour in class)[[/note]], while also criticizing him for {{Gaslighting}} Ron into the SidekickGlassCeiling [[note]]Like after becoming Captain in Book 6, he doesn't defend Ron despite him more or less winning the Quidditch Cup the previous year, while Harry sat out of the final for his poor sportsmanship and then resorting to a cheap trick to make Ron feel like he won but still remain insecure, while Ron once again served on the winning team of the Quidditch tournament when he got himself suspended ''again''[[/note]].
* Hermione Granger: We know she's a BadassBookworm, but how smart is she really? Harry considers her the smartest witch at Hogwarts and makes no bones about it (which embarrasses her to no end), but does she really live up to the hype? Part of it might just be that she's very book-smart but isn't as creative or confident as the other TeenGenius we see in the books - in essence, she's BoringButPractical.

to:

** Is Harry TheHero and [[MessianicArchetype a genuine saviour]], or is he a trust-fund orphan whose {{deceased parents|arethebest}} give him license to [[ItsAllAboutMe dismiss everyone else's problems as unimportant]]? Or is he He's obviously supposed to be a nice guy guy, but just a poorly executed one? The does the author succeed at portraying him as such? Do his allies help him because they like him, or because he's vitally important to SavingTheWorld?
** Is he as talented and adept at magic as everyone seems to think he is? He's credited with defeating Voldemort, but the
first time he defeated Voldemort did it he was an infant and it was through no action of his own, mother's HeroicSacrifice, and [[spoiler:the the second time was [[spoiler:he mostly taking took advantage of Voldemort's inability to [[WhatIsThisThingYouCallLove understand love]] and he simply otherwise followed Dumbledore's carefully laid plans]]. Some critics suggest that many of his victories were only based on luck (or Dumbledore's {{Batman Gambit}}s) as opposed to great skill with magic. Interestingly, Harry ''himself'' believes the former, only for Ron and Hermione to insist that these events also showed a bravery and resourcefulness that others don't have.
** Many also question if Harry actually is Is he really a good friend. Some have argued that Harry is a HollywoodNerd who is friend? Canonically, people like him, and his friendships are [[ThePowerOfFriendship instrumental in saving the day]]. But one [[http://www.cracked.com/funny-8720-harry-potter/ fundamentally popular alternative interpretation]] is that he's really a jock]], JerkJock who likes sports only cares about Quidditch and girls, coasts off Hermione for girls and isn't particularly interested in academics. He frequently dismisses his homework yet refuses friends' attempts to help him until he gets stuck himself (culminating in Ron briefly leaving the group in ''[[Literature/HarryPotterAndTheDeathlyHallows Deathly Hallows]]'' because Harry would rather sit around complaining than listen to her and even dismisses her when he wishes his ideas). Many proponents of this theory think he's particularly mean to [[note]]For instance, in ''Deathly Hallows'', Harry privately concurs with Xenophilius Lovegood that Hermione is "narrow-minded," and while he agrees later that Hermione was right about (and use this to counteract the Hallows, he does not apologize to her[[/note]] and moreover has severe MoralMyopia when it comes to class and school discipline (i.e. his insensitivity to Ron, and his plagiarism of the Prince's notebook in Book 6, poor sportsmanship). Such fans also raise eyebrows to prevalent Harry/Hermione ShippingGoggles since Harry shippers in the books does not really come across as a very good friend fandom), pointing out his persistent refusal to understand her [[note]](taking Ron's side in Book 3, [[UngratefulBastard he got mad at perspective on some things (''e.g.'' her for reporting the contention that his shiny new Firebolt anomously sent could be a BoobyTrap, her objection to him to [=McGonagall=] despite that it was a big red flag]] (To be fair, [[WhatTheHellHero Hagrid did call him out for that]]), his using the notes in Half Blood Prince's textbook in class, and generally getting very morose and depressed whenever he and Ron fight, but taking Hermione for granted and moreover not showing the slightest remorse or consideration about how his use of the Prince Textbook is unfairly giving him an advantage over Hermione's labour in class)[[/note]], while also criticizing him for {{Gaslighting}} [[{{Gaslighting}} exploiting her jumpiness]] to trick Ron into the SidekickGlassCeiling [[note]]Like after becoming Captain in Book 6, he doesn't defend Ron despite him more or less winning playing the Quidditch Cup the previous year, while game of his life[[note]]Although anyone with experience with goalkeeping in a real sport will tell you that what Harry sat out of did is the final most plausible explanation yet discovered for why keepers suddenly just have games like that[[/note]]) and his poor sportsmanship and then resorting tendency to a cheap trick to make Ron feel like he won but still remain insecure, while Ron once again served on the winning team of the Quidditch tournament much worse about himself when he got himself suspended ''again''[[/note]].
fights with Ron than with Hermione.
* Hermione Granger: We know she's a BadassBookworm, but how smart is she really? Harry considers her the smartest witch at Hogwarts and makes no bones about it (which embarrasses her to no end), but does she really live up to the hype? Part of it might just be that she's very book-smart but isn't as creative or confident as the other TeenGenius {{Teen Genius}}es we see in the books - in essence, she's BoringButPractical.



** What was the nature of Ginny's relationship with Tom Riddle in her first year? Harry doesn't learn much about what Tom's diary did to her; he suspects it {{brainwash|ing}}ed her into committing some horrible acts. But some people wonder how much control Ginny really had. Was she tricked into doing it by a nice, friendly-seeming stranger? When she realized what was happening to her, why didn't she tell anyone? Was that mind control too, or was she afraid of people finding out about their friendship? And, since this is fan-fiction: [[UnequalPairing was she in love with him, or was it mutual, or what?]]
*** Given Voldemort's canonical inability to understand love and unwillingness to value it, plus Ginny's feelings for Harry, the latter is extremely unlikely on both sides.
*** Both Ginny herself and Tom Riddle indicate that she definitely did not know what was going on. Not only did she claim to not remember the actions she performed on Tom's behalf, but according to Tom Riddle she even told him that she didn't know what was happening and thought she was going insane. She would hardly have done that if he had merely tricked her into doing these things. As for the question of why didn't she tell, clearly she was panicked and horrified by what she had done. An 11-year-old might well be forgiven for trying to cover up horrible things they are afraid they will be blamed for.

to:

** What was the nature of Ginny's relationship with Tom Riddle in her first year? Harry doesn't learn much about what Tom's diary did to her; he suspects it {{brainwash|ing}}ed her into committing some horrible acts. But some people wonder how much control Ginny really had. Was she tricked into doing it by a nice, friendly-seeming stranger? When she realized what was happening to her, why didn't she tell anyone? Was that mind control too, was she afraid of facing the consequences of her actions (whether they were intentional or not), or was she afraid of people finding out about their friendship? By her account, she had no control over her actions and couldn't reconcile them (even asking Tom if she was going insane), but should Harry believe her, and if that were true, could she plausibly hold up mentally as well as she did? And, since this is fan-fiction: [[UnequalPairing was she in love with him, or was it mutual, or what?]]
*** Given Voldemort's canonical inability to
what?]] (Extremely unlikely, as Voldemort canonically [[WhatIsThisThingYouCallLove cannot understand love love]] and unwillingness to value it, plus Ginny's feelings for Harry, the latter is extremely unlikely on both sides.
*** Both Ginny herself and Tom Riddle indicate that she definitely did not know what was going on. Not
she's [[SingleTargetSexuality only did she claim to not remember the actions she performed on Tom's behalf, got eyes for Harry]], but according to Tom Riddle she even told him that she didn't know what was happening and thought she was going insane. She would hardly have done that if he had merely tricked her into doing these things. As for the question of why didn't she tell, clearly she was panicked and horrified by what she had done. An 11-year-old might well be forgiven for trying to cover up horrible things they are afraid they will be blamed for.again, this is fan-fiction.)



*** Maybe she went from being eleven to fifteen?
** On a somewhat Meta level, some readers have argued Ginny gets too much CharacterShilling and feels a bit idealized and any negative traits she has are often brushed aside. Is this a sign of bad writing on Rowling’s part or is it the natural result of the books being told through Harry’s perspective, so her idealization is somewhat [[JustifiedTrope justified]]?
* The Weasley twins: Are they good-natured pranksters who target people who deserve what's coming to them? Or do they just get their kicks from {{Schadenfreude}} and get away with it because they target {{Asshole Victim}}s? Does the fact that they seem to treat Harry better than their own brothers suggest anything about their relationship with their family?
** Reasonable, given that they shove another student into a broken vanishing cabinet, apparently unconcerned about the possibility that [[DoorOfDoom it went nowhere]], or at least nowhere that you could survive. Possibly averted in that they knew what Vanishing Cabinets did, and thus expected them to simply dump him at the far end or something similar.
** Their treatment of Percy in particular is subject to many interpretations. Did they enjoy teasing and pranking him because they loved getting their normally formal brother riled up? Was the treatment mostly an effort to get Percy to loosen up and stop being such as stickler for the establishment? Or did they resent that their mother constantly praised him and admonished them and they took this frustration out on him in the form of jokes?

to:

*** Maybe she went from being eleven to fifteen?
** On a somewhat Meta level, some readers have argued Ginny gets too much CharacterShilling and feels a bit idealized idealized, and any negative traits she has are often brushed aside. Is this a sign of bad writing on Rowling’s part Rowling's part, or is it the natural result of the books being told through Harry’s perspective, so her idealization is somewhat [[JustifiedTrope justified]]?
justifying]] the narrative's idealization of her as Harry's growing attraction to her?
* The Weasley twins: Are they good-natured pranksters who target people who deserve what's coming to them? Or do they just get their kicks from {{Schadenfreude}} and get away with it because they target {{Asshole Victim}}s? Are they aware of the severity of some of their pranks (including shoving a student into a vanishing cabinet, which could have [[DoorOfDoom swallowed him up completely]])? Does the fact that they seem to treat Harry better than their own brothers suggest anything about their relationship with their family?
** Reasonable, given that
family? Do they shove another student into a broken vanishing cabinet, apparently unconcerned about the possibility that [[DoorOfDoom it went nowhere]], or at least nowhere that you could survive. Possibly averted in that they knew what Vanishing Cabinets did, and thus expected them to simply dump him at the far end or something similar.
** Their treatment of
target Percy in particular because Percy is subject to many interpretations. Did they enjoy teasing the most uptight and pranking him the biggest asshole (who ''does'' eventually break with the family), or because they loved getting their normally formal brother riled up? Was are jealous of the treatment mostly an effort to get attention Percy to loosen up got for his academic and stop being such as stickler for the establishment? Or did they resent that their mother constantly praised him and admonished them and they took this frustration out on him in the form of jokes?professional achievements?



** The other Weasleys were very prone to making fun of Percy and had little respect for his interests. After the rift, the others seemed to only express anger at him for leaving, but never sadness or regret; from all this, some fans suggest that Percy had every right to leave, given that he was clearly TheUnfavorite of everyone but Molly.
*** Of course, all those post-rift taunts are also subject to this trope: was it just SuspiciouslySpecificDenial when they claimed they didn't care that he was gone? They did accept him back pretty quickly at the end.

to:

** The other Weasleys were very prone to making fun of Percy and had little respect for his interests. After the rift, the others seemed to only express anger at him for leaving, but never sadness or regret; from all this, some fans suggest that Percy had every right to leave, given that he was clearly TheUnfavorite of everyone but Molly.
*** Of course, all those post-rift taunts are also subject to
Molly. But this trope: was it just SuspiciouslySpecificDenial when raises its own questions; were they claimed [[SuspiciouslySpecificDenial too quick]] to say they didn't care that he was gone? They did accept gone, and that's why they accepted him back pretty so quickly at in the end.end?



** Even his letter to Ron in "Order of the Phoenix" can be seen in a less negative light, when you think about that Percy was the odd one out in his family. It might look terrible at first glance, that he could ask his brother to dump his best friend and confide in ''Umbridge'' instead. But this probably was Percy's poor attempt at reaching out to Ron and trying to connect with at least ''one'' of his six siblings. And at this point, Harry had gotten a very bad reputation within the wizard community. And as much as Percy should have known better than to believe in those lies, he most likely felt that it was safer to stick with the ministry. He most likely also had no idea about just how evil Umbridge was, as he only would have seen her as a fellow dedicated ministry employee.

to:

** Even his letter to Ron in "Order ''[[Literature/HarryPotterAndTheOrderOfThePhoenix Order of the Phoenix" Phoenix]]'' can be seen in a less negative light, when you think about that Percy was the odd one out in his family. It might look terrible at light. At first glance, that he could ask it looks like he's a total asshole for asking his brother to dump his best friend and confide in ''Umbridge'' instead. [[TyrantTakesTheHelm Umbridge]]. But this probably was it can also be Percy's poor desperate attempt at reaching out to Ron and trying not just to connect with at least ''one'' one of his six siblings. And at this point, Harry had gotten siblings, but to protect said sibling from a very bad guy who's [[DoomMagnet got a target on his back]] and has a poor reputation within in the wizard community. And as much as Wizarding world. While it still reflects poorly on Percy should have known better than not to believe in those lies, Harry's account of Voldemort's return, he most likely felt that it was safer doesn't have much reason to stick with the ministry. He most likely also had no idea about just how evil believe Umbridge was, is as he only would have seen her evil as a fellow dedicated ministry employee. she turned out to be.



** After Dumbledore and Harry were proven to be right about Voldemort's return and [[LaserGuidedKarma Fudge was kicked out of office due to his actions]], did Percy continue hiding himself from his family because [[MyGodWhatHaveIDone he felt guilty for turning against them when they turned out to be right about who to trust]], was he [[NeverMyFault unable to let go of his pride long enough to apologize until the seventh book]], or was [[RejectedApology he afraid they would refuse his apology if he attempted to reconcile with them]]?
* Arthur and Molly Weasley: Are they really the GoodParents everyone makes them out to be? One theory suggests that they're selfish and wanted to make life as hard for their children as theirs was, or at least they're irresponsible considering how many children they have. These theorists point to the fact that Arthur kept a menial job at the Ministry because he liked it so much, even though he could have been paid more elsewhere. (Then in ''Goblet of Fire'' it's suggested that he's being kept down there for liking Muggles too much.) They also look at the UnfortunateImplications of Molly apparently wanting a daughter so badly that she kept having children until she got one, which made the family bigger than it needed to be (and also left Ron as TheUnfavorite).
** Another minor point. In the second book, Arthur's son learns about the location of a stash of forbidden items in a respected citizen's house. Come the third book... no signs of any search or arrest, but Arthur suddenly finds himself seven hundred Galleons richer. A case of EveryManHasHisPrice disguised as a lottery win?
* Luna Lovegood is a {{Cloudcuckoolander}} and an UnpopularPopularCharacter, but fans are divided as to where her strange beliefs and demeanor come from. Is she a normal girl who's just a bit different? Is she a DumbBlonde? Or is she mentally ill? And if so, what does she have - autism, ADD, schizophrenia, manic depression, some combination thereof? We do know that she lost her mother when she was young, which would likely leave some emotional scars as well, and that her father is about as eccentric as she is. Another interpretation is that Luna, actually isn't odd at all -- she's perfectly normal around Harry when they talk about loss -- and that she is faking being odd so that people let their guard slip when trying to decipher her and reveal things they shouldn't.
** Luna may simply be the magical equivalent of {{Adorkable}}, since most of her weirdness actually turns out to be from being overly focused in a rare field. Luna is a student of magical zoology, and eventually meets and marries a relative of the [[http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Rolf_Scamander Scamander family]]. Considering that Newt Scamander is a bit odd himself from studying odd creatures, it's perfectly plausible that she is simply a girl with a father who runs a conspiracy paper, and who is overly intense about her interests. Which makes Harry's choosing Ginny over her all the more egregious, since she is a solid friend, and he doesn't take her seriously, or believe in the creatures she claims are real.
** It's possible that her weird behavior is a sort of defense mechanism. Her dad works in a conspiracy theory/gossip paper, so she has gotten bullied in the past. It's sorta "don't hurt the crazy girl" defense. She may have grown up near humans, trying to hide her ability to see weird things and used it as a coping mechanism, especially since only wizards can see things like ghosts and dementors, and Luna can see some things many wizards can't, since she witnessed someone die. While her weirdness is a good cover story, every now and then she admits what's really going on. She blames her missing possessions on Nargles, but later admits that students have been taking her stuff.
* Marietta Edgecombe is a minor character who made a big impact by turning over Dumbledore's Army to Umbridge. She was found out because Hermione secretly cast a spell that would give away any snitches - by effectively disfiguring their face. Fans are on two sides as to how sympathetic Marietta is. On the one hand, she was scared of Umbridge (and her mother worked for her, which added to the pressure), and Hermione's secret spell seemed rather cruel and {{disproportionate|retribution}}. On the other hand, she effectively ended the only self-defense course available anywhere on campus, which Harry argues put practically everyone in danger.
** Worse than that, it is implied if not stated outright that being expelled from Hogwarts results in your wand being broken in half and you being forbidden to do magic for life, making her betrayal of Dumbledore's Army a lot more than just ruining their secret plans.

to:

** After Dumbledore and Harry were are proven to be right about Voldemort's return and [[LaserGuidedKarma Fudge was kicked out of office due to his actions]], did is unceremoniously fired]] for not believing them, Percy continue hiding nevertheless continued to separate himself from his family family. Was this because [[MyGodWhatHaveIDone he felt guilty for turning against them them]] when they turned out to be right about who to trust]], was right? Was he [[NeverMyFault unable too proud to let go of his pride long enough to apologize until apologize]] (before he did so in the seventh book]], or last book)? Or was he convinced that [[RejectedApology he afraid they would refuse his apology wouldn't forgive him even if he attempted to reconcile with them]]?
asked for it]]?
* Arthur and Molly Weasley: Weasley:
**
Are they really the GoodParents everyone makes them out to be? One theory suggests that they're selfish and wanted selfish, wanting to make life as hard for their children as theirs was, it was for them, or at least they're irresponsible considering how many irresponsibly having more children than they have. could afford to raise. Molly's behaviour on this front is [[UnfortunateImplications particularly concerning]], given that the narrative establishes that she wanted a daughter so badly that they kept having children until they got one, making the family bigger than it needed to be (and also leaving Ron as TheUnfavorite). These theorists also point to the fact that Arthur kept keeping a menial job at the Ministry because he liked it so much, even though he could have been paid more elsewhere. (Then elsewhere (although in ''Goblet of Fire'' it's suggested that he's being kept down there for liking Muggles too much.) They also look at the UnfortunateImplications of Molly apparently wanting a daughter so badly that she kept having children until she got one, which made the family bigger than it needed to be (and also left Ron as TheUnfavorite).
much).
** Another Some fans discovered a minor point. In the second book, point of contention: in ''Chamber of Secrets'', Arthur's son learns about of the location of a stash of forbidden items in a respected citizen's house. Come the third book... ''Prisoner of Azkaban'', there's no signs sign of any a search or arrest, but Arthur suddenly finds himself seven hundred Galleons richer. A richer and ''claims'' he won the lottery. Did he really, or is it just a case of EveryManHasHisPrice disguised as a lottery win?
[[EveryManHasHisPrice every man having his price]]?
* Luna Lovegood is a {{Cloudcuckoolander}} and an UnpopularPopularCharacter, but fans are divided as to where her strange beliefs and demeanor come from. Is she a normal girl who's just a bit different? Is she a DumbBlonde? Or is she mentally ill? And if so, what does she have - autism, ADD, schizophrenia, manic depression, some combination thereof? There are a few ways to think about this:
**
We do know that she lost her mother when she was young, which would likely leave some emotional scars as well, scars, and that her father is about as eccentric as she is. Another But one interpretation is that Luna, actually isn't odd at all -- she's perfectly normal around Harry when they talk about loss -- and that she is [[ObfuscatingInsanity faking being odd so that people let their guard slip when trying to decipher her oddness]] to lower people's guard, and reveal things they shouldn't.
those theorists point to her remarkably mature and level-headed manner as she discusses her losses with Harry.
** Luna She may simply just be the magical equivalent of magically {{Adorkable}}, since most of in the sense that her weirdness actually turns out to be from being overly focused interests are just pretty narrow in a rare field. Luna is a student of the magical zoology, world, and eventually meets Harry doesn't understand this as a hobby of sorts. She's particularly into magical zoology and marries a relative of the is shown [[AllThereInTheManual in supplemental material]] to have met and married [[http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Rolf_Scamander Scamander family]]. Considering that a relative]] of famed magical creatures expert Newt Scamander is a bit odd himself from studying odd creatures, it's perfectly plausible that she is simply a girl with a father who runs a conspiracy paper, and who is overly intense about her interests. Which makes (whom we see in [[Film/FantasticBeastsAndWhereToFindThem other sources]]). Harry's choosing Ginny over perspective may be warped because of her all the more egregious, since she father's ownership of a tabloid that peddles in conspiracy theories, which is a solid friend, and why he doesn't take her seriously, or believe in dismisses many of the creatures she claims are real.
Luna mentions as not being real (Harry/Luna shippers find this particularly cruel treatment).
** It's possible that her weird behavior is Her behaviour may be a sort of defense mechanism. Her dad works in a conspiracy theory/gossip paper, so she has gotten bullied in the past. It's sorta "don't hurt the crazy girl" defense. She may have grown up near humans, trying to hide her ability to see weird things and used it as a coping mechanism, especially since only considering the fact that her dad runs a conspiracy paper. She could be aware that others are inclined not to believe her -- which can be a problem, given that she knows she can see magical creatures like thestrels that even most other wizards can see things like ghosts and dementors, and Luna can see some things many wizards can't, since can't (and that only because she witnessed had seen someone die. While her weirdness is a good cover story, every die -- even Harry doesn't get that experience until ''Goblet of Fire''). Every now and then she admits what's really going on. She blames on (for instance, normally blaming her missing possessions on Nargles, "Nargles" but later admits admitting to Harry that she knows it's other students have been taking her stuff.
stuff).
* Marietta Edgecombe is a minor character who made a big impact by turning over Dumbledore's Army to Umbridge. She was found out because Hermione secretly cast a spell that would give away any snitches - by effectively disfiguring their face. Fans are on two sides as to how sympathetic Marietta is. On the one hand, she was scared of Umbridge (and her mother worked for her, which added to the pressure), and Hermione's secret spell seemed rather cruel and {{disproportionate|retribution}}. On the other hand, she effectively ended the only self-defense self-defence course available anywhere on campus, which Harry argues put practically everyone in danger.
** Worse than that, it is implied if not stated outright
danger (especially given that being expelled the students risked expulsion, which includes a prohibition from Hogwarts results in your owning a wand being broken in half and you being forbidden to do magic for life, making her betrayal of Dumbledore's Army a lot more than just ruining their secret plans.or using magic).



** The FilmOfTheBook complicates matters further because two different actors played him and had their own interpretations of him. Creator/RichardHarris plays him as a straight-up Obi-Wan-style good guy. Creator/MichaelGambon played him as somewhere between an angry [[TheAtoner Atoner]] and a GeniusDitz. Screenwriter Creator/SteveKloves claims that he tried to write Dumbledore the same throughout the films, no matter who was playing him. Here's his take on the character (from the second film's commentary):
--->I've always felt that [[TheAtoner Dumbledore bears such a tremendous dark burden]], and he knows secrets, and I think in many ways he bears the weight of the future of the wizard world, which is being challenged, and the only way that he can keep that at bay is to be whimsical and humorous.

to:

** The FilmOfTheBook complicates matters further further, because two different actors played him and had their own interpretations of him. Creator/RichardHarris plays him as a straight-up Obi-Wan-style good guy. Creator/MichaelGambon played him as somewhere between an angry [[TheAtoner Atoner]] and a GeniusDitz. Screenwriter Creator/SteveKloves claims that he tried to write Dumbledore the same throughout the films, no matter who was playing him. Here's his take on the character (from the second film's commentary):
--->I've --->''I've always felt that [[TheAtoner Dumbledore bears such a tremendous dark burden]], and he knows secrets, and I think in many ways he bears the weight of the future of the wizard world, which is being challenged, and the only way that he can keep that at bay is to be whimsical and humorous.''



--> "I think [Grindlewald] was a user and a narcissist, and I think someone like that would use it, would use the infatuation. I don't think that he would reciprocate in that way, although he would be as dazzled by Dumbledore as Dumbledore was by him, because he would see in Dumbledore, "My God, I never knew there was someone as brilliant as me, as talented as me, as powerful as me. [[WeCanRuleTogether Together, we are unstoppable!]]" Maybe he would take anything from Dumbledore to have him on his side."
** Dumbledore's words to Snape immediately after Lily and James' death - "They put their trust in the wrong person... Rather like you. Weren't you hoping Lord Voldemort would spare Lily?" Is he fairly calling Snape out for his poor choice of initial loyalties? Or is he displacing his own responsibility onto a man in the throes of suicidal despair? After all, Snape clearly didn't trust Voldemort, because he risked his life to defect to Dumbledore in the first place. And if Albus is displacing responsibility, is it because he's unwilling to face up to his own failure in protecting his followers, or is he deliberately pushing Snape to a point where he'll agree to anything in the hope of redemption?
** Rita Skeeter was known for scathing and notoriously false reporting, but she may have inadvertently hit upon a nugget of truth in her postmortem reporting on Dumbledore's formative years and how much influence they held on who Dumbledore eventually became. He and Grindelwald held great aspirations to help bring wizards and witches out of hiding and put them at the top of the food chain, and if an unknown number of Muggles had to die in service to this dream, it was all "for the Greater Good." Dumbledore parted ways with Grindelwald and eventually had their epic showdown, but who can say that Albus ever really left behind that holier-than-thou, "I'm the smartest guy in the room, so shut up and follow me" attitude. His bargaining with Snape after hearing the prophecy can be seen as some of the coldest treatment of the main character before he's even become The Boy Who Lived. Snape told Dumbledore he would give him literally anything in return for his help protecting Lily and her family, and after IT happens, Dumbledore victim-blames Lily and Snape, and then uses Snape’s love for Lily to manipulate him into helping him keep an eye on Harry for seven years, a boy he loathes on principle because he reminds him SO MUCH of the bully who made his life hell at the only place he ever felt at home. And all that on top of Albus’s knowledge that Harry would have to die to ensure Voldemort’s defeat, and he kept that knowledge from Harry for literally his whole life and then poked fun at Snape for accusing him of raising Harry “like a pig for slaughter.” This paints Dumbledore as a ChaoticGood character at best, still focused more on "the greater good" and soothing his fractured ego than on what might be best for the people under his care, and a LawfulEvil character at worst, someone who wants to rule but is willing to serve, someone unwilling to kill but perfectly at ease to manipulate others into doing so.
** Also, a commonly argued point: was Dumbledore rewarding good behavior as he saw it while allowing natural consequences for bad behavior? Or was he outright showing favouritism to Gryffindor over the rest of the student population, especially Slytherin?

to:

--> "I --->''I think [Grindlewald] was a user and a narcissist, and I think someone like that would use it, would use the infatuation. I don't think that he would reciprocate in that way, although he would be as dazzled by Dumbledore as Dumbledore was by him, because he would see in Dumbledore, "My God, I never knew there was someone as brilliant as me, as talented as me, as powerful as me. [[WeCanRuleTogether Together, we are unstoppable!]]" Maybe he would take anything from Dumbledore to have him on his side."
** Dumbledore's words to Snape immediately after Lily and James' death - "They put their trust in the wrong person... Rather like you. Weren't you hoping Lord Voldemort would spare Lily?" Is he fairly calling Snape out for his poor choice of initial loyalties? Or is he displacing his own responsibility onto a man in the throes of suicidal despair? After all, Snape clearly didn't trust Voldemort, because he risked his life to defect to Dumbledore in the first place. And if Albus is displacing responsibility, is it because he's unwilling to face up to his own failure in protecting his followers, or is he deliberately pushing Snape to a point where he'll agree to anything in the hope of redemption?
''
** Rita Skeeter was known for scathing and notoriously false reporting, but she may have inadvertently hit upon a nugget of truth in her postmortem reporting on Dumbledore's formative years and how much influence they held on who Dumbledore eventually became. He and Grindelwald held great aspirations to help bring wizards and witches out of hiding and put them at the top of the food chain, and if an unknown number of Muggles had to die in service to this dream, it was all "for "[[WellIntentionedExtremist for the Greater Good." Good]]". Dumbledore parted ways with Grindelwald and eventually had their epic showdown, but who can say that Albus ever he never really left behind that holier-than-thou, "I'm the smartest guy in the room, so shut up and follow me" attitude. His bargaining with Snape after hearing the prophecy can be seen as some of the coldest his "[[HolierThanThou I'm-the-smartest-guy-in-the-room]]" attitude.
** Dumbledore's
treatment of the main character before he's even become The Boy Who Lived. Snape told Dumbledore is particularly concerning to some fans, who saw him as manipulating Snape into doing his bidding by exploiting Snape's trauma at losing the only woman he ever loved. He registers Snape's desperation in saying that he would give him literally anything in return for his help protecting ''anything'' to protect Lily and her family, family. So once Voldemort kills her and after IT happens, James, Dumbledore victim-blames Lily explicitly calls Snape out for hoping Voldemort would spare Lily, appears to shift responsibility to Snape for failing to protect her, and Snape, and then uses Snape’s love for Lily to manipulate forces him into helping him to keep an a close eye on Harry for seven years, a boy he loathes on principle because he (who reminds him SO MUCH Snape of the bully who made his life hell at the not only place he ever felt at home. And all his love but the man for whom she left him). They also argue that on top of Albus’s knowledge that Snape seems to care more about Harry would have than Dumbledore did (despite Snape being much more of a dick to die to ensure Voldemort’s defeat, and he kept that knowledge from Harry for literally his whole life than Dumbledore ever was), and then poked fun at point out how Snape for accusing him explicitly accused Dumbledore of raising Harry “like "like a pig for slaughter.” This paints slaughter" (referring to Dumbledore's plan to [[spoiler:sacrifice him to defeat Voldemort]]), only for Dumbledore as a ChaoticGood character at best, still focused to brush him off.
** A
more on "the greater good" and soothing his fractured ego than on what might be best for the people under his care, and a LawfulEvil character at worst, someone who wants to rule but is willing to serve, someone unwilling to kill but perfectly at ease to manipulate others into doing so.
** Also, a commonly argued point: was Dumbledore rewarding good behavior as he saw it
minor point concerns Dumbledore's treatment of Gryffindor (at least while allowing natural consequences for bad behavior? Or Harry was he outright showing favouritism there) and whether it counted as favouritism. Over the years, the House Cup becomes much less important to the story, but in ''Philosopher's Stone'', his last-minute point-spree to Gryffindor over for Harry and company's actions in the rest of climax (including a critical ten points to Neville for trying to ''stop'' them from going after the student population, especially Slytherin?Stone because it was too dangerous, because standing up to your enemies isn't as hard as standing up to your friends) is seen as totally arbitrary and a way to screw Slytherin at the last second. Maybe he was just bored with Slytherin's winning streak.



** He is seen often as a romantic ByronicHero, who started out genuinely evil but fell in love and had a HeelFaceTurn, yet at the same time, becoming a bitter {{Jerkass}} out of romantic disappointment and being divided between jealousy and guilt but finally achieving his RedemptionQuest. Creator/JKRowling admitted that she sees Snape as fundamentally divided:
-->[He is] a very flawed hero. An AntiHero, perhaps. He is not a particularly likable man in many ways. He remains rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and insecurity - and yet he loved, and showed loyalty to that love and ultimately laid down his life because of it. That's pretty heroic!
** Some fans however see him as a straight hero -- usually [[DracoInLeatherPants leather-pantsed]] by fan-fic writers by invoking SocietyIsToBlame, mostly by making him a hopeless romantic who was the victim of everyone, even Lily, but particularly James and the rest of the Marauders, and even Dumbledore, who they see as a ManipulativeBastard who guilt-tripped Snape and robbed him of his true potential by making him his lackey. They also take Harry's "bravest man I knew" statement on face value and insist that Snape was the true main character and most important figure in the series.
** Or more nuanced than that: he was very much bullied and mistreated by his father and by the Marauders, not to mention used by Dumbledore and Voldemort - but he himself ''chose'' to become a bully instead of ascribe to better behavior. Perhaps he had a very flawed idea of how to attain power, seeing how his own bullies remained in positions of power and were seemingly rewarded in life, particularly by being more beloved than he was. And he ''does'' deserve sympathy for the mistreatment he endured as a kid. ''But he didn't have to become that bullying person too'', especially to other vulnerable kids, especially once he himself was in a position of power.
** There's also the issue of how his "redemption" explains his abusive approach to education. It's painfully obvious that he hates Harry and as WordOfGod confirmed wouldn't have cared for him had he not been Lily's son and that he was wildly obnoxious as a teacher to him and other students (Neville, Hermione and others). But some defenders explain this bullying by arguing that he was being a StealthMentor or that it was Snape being SlaveToPR -- intended to fool Voldemort and the Death Eaters into thinking he's a ReverseMole, while critics note that Dumbledore repeatedly chided him for not showing Harry his best side, and that Snape's hatred for Harry led to many PoorCommunicationKills (the climax of ''Prisoner of Azkaban'' and ''Order of the Phoenix'') that ultimately favoured Voldemort's plans. [[note]]In the case of Book 3, his GlorySeeker obsession of wanting to capture Sirius led him to go down the Whomping Willow tunnel, overlooking Remus not taking the Wolfsbane Potion and refusing a peaceful resolution by which Sirius offered to turn himself in to Dumbledore as long as he brought evidence to vindicate him, while Snape wanted [[HangingJudge to straight away feed him to Dementors]] and then insisting on defending his views by insulting James which led to Harry knocking him out which led to the GambitPileup that led to Peter's escape and Voldemort's return. In Book 5, his terrible teaching of Occlumency and poor treatment of Harry led to such a breakdown that Harry didn't think of consulting Snape when he had the vision of Sirius. Had Snape been a ''little'' cordial and professional, in either case, that entire situation could have been avoided. While both Dumbledore, and Remus take responsibility for their role in those incidents (though Harry's own behaviour in the Occlumency lessons was similarly terrible, not bothering to put in the practice and finally abusing Snape's trust by looking at his most private memories while Snape was dealing with an emergency), Snape never once apologizes or gets called out for his misbehavior in the plots.[[/note]] Defenders explain his hatred for Neville by noting that he feels Lily would have lived had Voldemort chosen him, but others note that this just makes Snape's MoralMyopia worse and only highlights his narcissism and general LackOfEmpathy and further prevents him from truly owning for his actions. Likewise, while his reasons for hating Sirius makes sense and is justified (he was nearly a victim of the latter's DeadlyPrank and he probably blamed Sirius for Lily's death), this doesn't justify him trying to feed him to the Dementors when he offered to come quietly and insisted on bringing evidence to Dumbledore, nor does it excuse his own intelligence failure in not recognizing Wormtail as the spy, and the fact that he himself only dodged Azkaban because of Dumbledore's patronage.
** Was his love for Lily real, or was he just a StalkerWithACrush who was simply in [[LovingAShadow love with the idea of her]]? It's pointed out that he never really seemed to care about her real personality and feelings. Very little of what she told him stuck with him (unless it was badmouthing James); even after she broke their friendship off for good, rather than [[MustMakeAmends give up the Dark Arts and listen to her and improve his behaviour]] (like James apparently did), he immersed himself in the [[BlackMagic Dark Arts]] even [[ThenLetMeBeEvil further, despite knowing]] that [[MoralMyopia it targeted people of her ethnicity]] and that [[ThisIsUnforgivable she hated him being part of it]]. The fact that Snape had hopes of ComfortingTheWidow and this is why he asked Voldemort to spare her and only turned to Dumbledore to "[[RunningBothSides hedge his bets]]" calls into question Snape's notion of consent, as does his removal of Lily from the family photo in Deathly Hallows which the novel presents as romantic but which others [[IRejectYourReality see as further evidence of his inability]] [[CrazyJealousGuy to accept that Lily]] rejected him and loved another man and was truly happy until [[NeverMyFault ''he'' told Voldemort the prophecy]]. Many Snape haters believe that Lily was creeped out by Snape and would have never reciprocated regardless of whether he joined the Death Eaters or not (noting that at the time of the end of their friendship, Lily was having serious issues [[WhatTheHellHero with Snape's choice of hanging]] out with Death Eaters while her other friends were [[WhatTheHellHero calling her out]] for associating with someone who called them Mudblood). Rowling stated that Snape was a friend of Lily's (and she did risk a lot to stick by him) and she ''might'' have eventually reciprocated if he hadn't chosen the Dark Arts. This means that the possibilities of a real relationship did exist but Snape did the best to snuff it out.
** Snape has his worst memory about being humiliated by his rival and about alienating a girl he loved with his own words. Other people in this time has their worst memories about their parents, siblings and loved ones being killed horribly by the side Snape is openly sympathetic to.
** It's also notable that Snape does '''not,''' in fact, truly apologize to Lily. More than a cursory reading of the scene shows that he keeps saying "I'm sorry, I'm sorry," but never says what he's sorry for. He never admits to her that calling her a Mudblood is bad, and when she [[ArmorPiercingQuestion inquires why she should be different when he calls everyone of her birth "Mudblood,"]] Snape is notably silent. In response, instead of shaking off Malfoy and co and sincerely trying to change, as James did, Snape merely continued to spend time with the wrong crowd. Given that there are no more memories of his and Lily's interacting, it's hard to see Snape as having grown up at all.
** Other fans also question the issue of Snape's redemption arguing that it essentially came down to MoralLuck. Snape gave Voldemort the prophecy knowing that it contained reference to a child born to a couple that opposed Voldemort. Many wonder if Snape would have defected had Voldemort chosen Frank and Alice Longbottom (as Dumbledore speculated), noting that he was fine with Voldemort targeting someone's infant and that he was even okay with Voldemort killing James and Harry but specifically wanted to spare Lily (which Dumbledore called him out for). In their view, Snape's redemption came not out of courage but from cowardice (similar to Draco's redemption) and it owes more to Dumbledore's skills as a manipulator to [[{{Deprogram}} carefully mould him]] away from the Dark Arts. This group of fans takes issue with Snape being [[CharacterShilling "the bravest man"]] Harry had known feeling it negates the far greater personal courage of Neville Longbottom (who Snape bullied and never once showed the slightest remorse for doing so), Dobby, the Weasleys and many many others.
** Meanwhile, still other fans point out that while his initial defection to Team Good may have been for selfish reasons, in the last book we find out that he continued to work against Voldemort and do his best to protect the children at Hogwarts even after he'd been told that the whole "protect Lily's child" thing was actually just "keep him alive long enough to suicide-attack the Dark Lord", and he risked his cover attempting to protect Remus Lupin (whom he has no reason whatsoever to care for) in the battle over Privet Drive at the start of the book; arguing that however he started and however far he had to go, he was truly committed to becoming a better person.
*** Additionally confusing the issue is the fact that he's an AdaptationalNiceGuy in the movies, which remove many of his most {{Jerkass}} moments. While the Alan Rickman!Snape is presented more or less as a JerkWithAHeartOfGold, the book!Snape is a SadistTeacher who bullies Neville to the extent that he is the latter's ''greatest fear'' during third year, constantly mocks Hermione, and has far more dirty baggage than his film counterpart.
* How much did James Potter grow out of his BigManOnCampus phase in school? We see Harry discover that his father wasn't [[BrokenPedestal everything he imagined him to be]]; James' friends assure Harry that he grew out of it, but some fans aren't convinced. More specifically, did he deliberately destroy Snape and Lily's friendship so he could have her for herself, and did his condescending UnderestimatingBadassery of Peter Pettigrew lead to Peter's FaceHeelTurn (and thus his death)?
** Canon states that Snape ended his own friendship with Lily the minute he called her a Mudblood even though this was in part triggered by the Marauders' constant bullying. James started a relationship with Lily after she thought he had changed but Sirius thinks he might have actually continued to bully students behind her back, especially Snape. Pettigrew stated that James wouldn't have wanted Sirius and Lupin to kill Snape. Of course you could argue that not killing someone is a very low standard to aspire to, and if Snape was killed then his friends would be in ''deep'' trouble, but on the other hand that was a low barrier that Snape himself didn't pass (being that he was okay with the death of James and Harry, the former who saved his life, and the latter an infant, solely so Lily could live, for him).
** The real problem with the character comes from re-reading the books. Until Book 5, all references to James in the series is very positive and we get next to no information on Lily. Everyone speaks positively of him, even [=McGonagall=], a generally unbiased figure, who despite James' trouble-making past grieves sincerely at his death, and indulges Harry by remarking how proud he would have been, Voldemort sees him as a WorthyOpponent in Book 1 and Book 4, when he had little reason to lie in either situation. Yet the final three books skews the opposite manner in general, in a way that comes across as a {{Retcon}} and ShockingSwerve, that worked as EmotionalTorque on first reading but which doesn't quite add to a consistent character on second reading. Many fans noted that James returning from the Resurrection Stone and telling Harry that he's SoProudOfYou, does not work emotionally since his two previous on-screen appearances (in the Snape's Worst Memory sequence and the Prince's Tale first scene) made him come off as unsympathetic and there's not enough real reasons given why Lily ultimately married him.
* Lily Potter, meanwhile, is often thought of as a CanonSue. [[CharacterShilling Very few characters have anything mean to say about her]], and those who do usually hold a grudge against her of some sort (like Petunia, who became TheUnfavorite). Unlike James, we see little to suggest that she had any negative qualities. Her acting as Snape's MoralityPet further enhances this viewpoint. It also gets Freudian when Harry starts thinking of Ginny in the same terms and falls in love with her. Fan writers also suggest that Lily broke it off with Snape for nothing - a mere slip of the tongue (never mind that it was a racial slur) - as opposed to the slur being the last straw.
** On the other hand, Lily was going to attack James, Sirius, Remus, and Peter to protect Snape from their bullying. She most definitely did stand up for him and she only broke off their friendship when he started hurling slurs at her. But it's also noted that when she does so she uses the Marauders' own pet insult for Snape "Snivellus" and then tells him that he ought to wash his pants, and that earlier in the scene, the narrative mentions that she was about to smile at James' antics, which suggests that she secretly did share [[NotSoAboveItAll James' view of Snape all along]] but was too ashamed to admit it. They also note that she treats Snape with cold anger and contempt after the Snape's Worst Memory scene, keeps reminding Snape that his behaviour is irritating her other friends, and in the letter Harry finds, is fully absorbed in the Marauder's family, calling Sirius Padfoot and gloating secretly about the cat destroying Petunia's vase. None of which exactly suggests that Lily felt any great deal of affection for Snape, or that she was entirely opposed or critical of James' antics.

to:

** He is seen often as a romantic ByronicHero, who started out genuinely evil but fell in love and had a HeelFaceTurn, yet at the same time, becoming became a bitter {{Jerkass}} out of romantic disappointment and being divided found himself torn between jealousy and guilt but before finally achieving his RedemptionQuest. As the series goes on, he's shown more and more risking himself fighting for the good guys (by ''Deathly Hallows'' even risking his cover as a Reverse ReverseMole to protect his allies). Creator/JKRowling admitted that she sees Snape as fundamentally divided:
-->[He
this way:
--->''[He
is] a very flawed hero. An AntiHero, perhaps. He is not a particularly likable man in many ways. He remains rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and insecurity - and yet he loved, and showed loyalty to that love and ultimately laid down his life because of it. That's pretty heroic!
heroic!''
** Some fans however fans, however, see him as a straight hero -- usually [[DracoInLeatherPants leather-pantsed]] by fan-fic writers by invoking SocietyIsToBlame, who claim SocietyIsToBlame -- mostly by making him a hopeless romantic who was the victim of victimized by everyone, even Lily, but particularly James and the rest of the Marauders, Marauders. Even Dumbledore is seen as having [[ManipulativeBastard guilted Snape]] into being his lackey and even Dumbledore, who they see as a ManipulativeBastard who guilt-tripped Snape and robbed robbing him of his whatever true potential by making him he may have had as a wizard. His treatment of Harry is seen as a tragic manifestation of what he went through, cursed to see both the woman he loved and the man she chose instead of him. His treatment of Neville is similarly justified as his lackey. They also {{angst}}ing over the fact that had Voldemort chosen Neville instead of Harry as "his equal", Lily would have lived. These fans take Harry's "bravest man I knew" statement on at face value and go as far as to insist that Snape was the true main character and most important figure in the series.
** Or Others are more nuanced than that: he nuanced: They say that Snape's just after power. He was very much bullied and indeed mistreated by his father and father, by the Marauders, not to mention used by Dumbledore Voldemort, even by Dumbledore, but this [[FreudianExcuseIsNoExcuse doesn't excuse him from becoming an asshole]], and Voldemort - but an asshole is what he himself ''chose'' to become a bully instead of ascribe to better behavior. Perhaps he had a very flawed idea of how to attain power, seeing how his own bullies remained in positions of power and were seemingly rewarded in life, particularly by being more beloved than he was. And he ''does'' became. He does deserve some sympathy for the mistreatment he endured as a kid. ''But he didn't have to become that bullying person too'', especially he went through, but he still sought power and observed that the bullies ''had'' power, and thus he became a bully himself as a means of having that power for himself. He's particularly shown to other target vulnerable kids, especially once like Harry (who's been through a lot himself), Hermione (who's more sensitive than the others), Ron (in some ways the ButtMonkey), and Neville (in ''many'' ways the ButtMonkey); meanwhile, he himself shows extraordinary favouritism to Malfoy, whose parents [[ScrewTheRulesIHaveConnections happen to be well-connected]]. His working for Dumbledore is seen as opportunistic, given that Dumbledore's patronage likely saved him from a stint in Azkaban for his actions as a Death Eater. Even his interactions with the Marauders as adults seem to follow this pattern; yes, they were cruel to him and nearly [[DeadlyPrank killed him with a prank]], but ''he'' was in a position of power.
** There's also
willing to [[YourSoulIsMine feed Sirius to the issue of how Dementors]] rather than turn him over to Dumbledore.
** Does
his "redemption" explains RedemptionQuest excuse his abusive approach to education. It's painfully obvious that he hates education? On the face of it, he's an asshole teacher who picks on students and would have likely been even crueler to Harry and as WordOfGod confirmed wouldn't have cared for him had he not been Lily's son and son. But some claim that he was wildly obnoxious as a teacher to him and other students (Neville, Hermione and others). But some defenders explain this bullying by arguing that he was being really a StealthMentor or that it was Snape being SlaveToPR -- intended who wanted to fool Voldemort and teach his students about the Death Eaters into thinking reality of the dangerous world they were facing (but couldn't outright because he's a ReverseMole, while critics note that Dumbledore repeatedly chided him for not showing Harry his best side, SlaveToPR and that Snape's hatred for Harry led has to many PoorCommunicationKills (the climax of be a believable ReverseMole). For instance, in ''Prisoner of Azkaban'' and ''Order of his stint filling in for Lupin as Defence Against the Phoenix'') Dark Arts professor was a way to subtly warn the students that ultimately favoured Voldemort's plans. [[note]]In the case of Book 3, his GlorySeeker obsession of wanting to capture Sirius led him to go down the Whomping Willow tunnel, overlooking Remus he was a werewolf, and he would likely not taking the Wolfsbane Potion and refusing a peaceful resolution by which Sirius offered to turn himself in to Dumbledore as long as he brought evidence to vindicate him, while Snape wanted [[HangingJudge to straight away feed him to Dementors]] and then insisting on defending his views by insulting James which led to Harry knocking him out which led to the GambitPileup that led to Peter's escape and Voldemort's return. In Book 5, his terrible have ''bothered'' teaching Harry the art of [[PsychicBlockDefense Occlumency]] had he not believed that it could be useful to him. Others counter that Snape is still not doing a very good job of preparing students for the outside world, that he wanted to out Lupin as a werewolf because he hated him and wanted his job, and that he taught Occlumency and poor treatment of to Harry led to such a breakdown so poorly that not only did Harry didn't think of consulting not really learn it, he was unwilling to go back to Snape for help when he had the vision of Sirius. Had Snape been a ''little'' cordial and professional, in either case, that entire situation could have been avoided. While both Dumbledore, and Remus take responsibility for their role in those incidents (though Harry's own behaviour in the Occlumency lessons was similarly terrible, not bothering to put in the practice and finally abusing Snape's trust by looking at his most private memories while Snape was dealing with an emergency), Snape never once apologizes or gets called out for his misbehavior in the plots.[[/note]] Defenders explain his hatred for Neville by noting that he feels Lily would have lived had Voldemort chosen him, but others note that this just makes Snape's MoralMyopia worse and only highlights his narcissism and general LackOfEmpathy and further prevents started feeding him from truly owning for his actions. Likewise, while his reasons for hating Sirius makes sense and is justified (he was nearly a victim of the latter's DeadlyPrank and he probably blamed Sirius for Lily's death), this doesn't justify him trying to feed him to the Dementors when he offered to come quietly and insisted on bringing evidence to Dumbledore, nor does it excuse his own intelligence failure in not recognizing Wormtail as the spy, and the fact that he himself only dodged Azkaban because of Dumbledore's patronage.visions.
** Was his love for Lily real, or was he just a StalkerWithACrush who was simply in [[LovingAShadow love with the idea of her]]? It's pointed out that he never really seemed to care about her real personality and feelings. Very little of what she told him stuck with him (unless it was badmouthing James); even James). Even after she broke their friendship off for good, rather than listen to her and [[MustMakeAmends give up the Dark Arts and listen to her and Arts]] (and improve his behaviour]] (like behaviour like James apparently did), he immersed himself in the [[BlackMagic Dark Arts]] even [[ThenLetMeBeEvil further, further]], despite knowing]] knowing that [[MoralMyopia it targeted people of her ethnicity]] background]] and that [[ThisIsUnforgivable she hated him for being part of into it]]. The fact that Snape had hopes of ComfortingTheWidow and this is why he asked His pleading Voldemort to spare her has shades of ComfortingTheWidow, as he didn't seem to care what happened to James (or the infant Harry), and only turned to Dumbledore to "[[RunningBothSides hedge his bets]]" calls into question Snape's notion of consent, as does his removal of Lily from the family photo in Deathly Hallows which the novel presents ''Deathly Hallows'' is presented as romantic but which others often seen as [[IRejectYourReality see as further evidence of his inability]] [[CrazyJealousGuy inability to accept accept]] that Lily]] Lily rejected him him. He never even really ''apologized'' to her for calling her a "Mudblood". These fans question whether a relationship between them was at ''all'' plausible and loved another man and was truly happy until [[NeverMyFault ''he'' told Voldemort the prophecy]]. Many Snape haters believe that Lily was creeped out by Snape and would have never reciprocated regardless of whether rejected Snape even had he joined promised to give up the Death Eaters or not (noting Dark Arts. Rowling had to roll back on that, saying that at the time of the end of their friendship, Lily was having serious issues [[WhatTheHellHero with Snape's choice of hanging]] out with Death Eaters while her other they really were friends were [[WhatTheHellHero calling her out]] for associating with someone who called them Mudblood). Rowling stated [[WeUsedToBeFriends at one time]], and that Snape was a friend of Lily's (and she did risk Lily risked a lot to stick by him) and she ''might'' have eventually reciprocated if he hadn't chosen the Dark Arts. This means that the possibilities of with him, so there was a real relationship shot there.
** Did Snape even succeed in his RedemptionQuest, or
did exist but he just [[MoralLuck luck out]]? Snape did inform Voldemort of the best prophecy that convinced him he needed to snuff it out.
**
kill Harry's family, but if Voldemort had chosen Neville and ''his'' family (as was possible under the prophecy), would he even have defected? Some of the people who argue that Dumbledore [[ManipulativeBastard manipulated a vulnerable Snape]] into working for him was right to do so, as he called out Snape has his worst memory about for being humiliated by his rival willing to let Harry and about alienating a girl James die even as he loved pleaded for Voldemort to spare Lily, and he had the opportunity to turn a total asshole into [[{{Deprogram}} one of the good guys]]. (However, these fans are likely not to accept Harry's characterisation of him as "[[CharacterShilling the bravest man]]".)
** How did he get in
with his own words. Other people in this time has their worst memories about their parents, siblings and loved ones being killed horribly by the side Snape is openly sympathetic to.
** It's also notable that Snape does '''not,''' in fact, truly apologize to Lily. More than a cursory reading of the scene shows that he keeps saying "I'm sorry, I'm sorry," but never says what he's sorry for. He never admits to her that calling her a Mudblood is bad, and when she [[ArmorPiercingQuestion inquires why she should be different when he calls everyone of her birth "Mudblood,"]] Snape is notably silent. In response, instead of shaking off Malfoy and co and sincerely
Death Eater friends? Did they actually like him, or were they just trying to change, as James did, recruit him? Did Snape merely continued to spend time with actually like ''them'', or was he just seeking power or status? They didn't defend him from the wrong crowd. Given Marauders, so that there are no more memories of his and Lily's interacting, it's hard to see complicates matters. And in adulthood, was Snape fooled into following Voldemort and treated like a pawn, or did Voldemort actually like Snape and treat him as a confidant and a near-equal? He was (kinda) willing to entertain Snape's plea not to kill Lily.
** Do the movies change anything? In the books Snape is shown
as having grown up at all.
** Other fans also question
a lot more baggage than in the issue films (possibly due to [[CompressedAdaptation space reasons]]). He's shown as much more insecure and angry, lashing out at Harry discovering anything embarrassing to him (see, for instance, Harry's discovery of Snape's redemption arguing that it essentially came down to MoralLuck. Snape gave Voldemort the prophecy knowing that it contained reference to a child born to a couple that opposed Voldemort. Many wonder if Snape would have defected had Voldemort chosen Frank and Alice Longbottom (as Dumbledore speculated), noting that he was fine with Voldemort targeting someone's infant and that he was even okay with Voldemort killing James and Harry but specifically wanted to spare Lily (which Dumbledore called him out for). In their view, "worst memory" or Snape's redemption came not out of courage but from cowardice (similar reaction to Draco's redemption) and it owes more to Dumbledore's skills as a manipulator to [[{{Deprogram}} carefully mould him]] away from the Dark Arts. This group Marauders' Map mocking him). Creator/AlanRickman's portrayal of fans takes issue with Snape being [[CharacterShilling "the bravest man"]] Harry had known feeling it negates the far greater personal courage of Neville Longbottom (who Snape bullied is much cooler and never once showed the slightest remorse for doing so), Dobby, the Weasleys and many many others.
** Meanwhile, still other fans point out that
self-assured; while his initial defection to Team Good may have been for selfish reasons, in the last book we find out that he continued to work against Voldemort and do his best to protect the children at Hogwarts even after he'd been told that the whole "protect Lily's child" thing was actually just "keep him alive long enough to suicide-attack the Dark Lord", and he risked his cover attempting to protect Remus Lupin (whom he has no reason whatsoever to care for) in the battle over Privet Drive at the start of the book; arguing that however he started and however far he had to go, he was truly committed to becoming a better person.
*** Additionally confusing the issue is the fact that
he's still an AdaptationalNiceGuy in the movies, which remove many of his most {{Jerkass}} moments. While the Alan Rickman!Snape is presented asshole, he's much more or less as of a JerkWithAHeartOfGold, the book!Snape is a SadistTeacher who bullies Neville and his reaction to the extent that he any setback seems to be ''whatever, I can deal with it''. Complicating this reinterpretation is the latter's ''greatest fear'' during third year, constantly mocks Hermione, and has far more dirty baggage than his film counterpart.
* How much did James Potter grow out
idea that Rickman was informed of his BigManOnCampus phase in school? We see Snape's entire backstory as early as the first film, before any of the books describing it were even published.
* What to think of Harry's dad James?
Harry doesn't know much about him, and only later does he discover that his father wasn't [[BrokenPedestal everything he imagined him to be]]; be]]. James' friends assure Harry that he grew out of it, but some fans aren't convinced. More specifically, convinced:
** How
did he deliberately destroy end up with Lily to begin with? Did he target Snape and Lily's try to destroy their friendship so that he could have her for herself, himself? Or, as the canon characters claim, did Lily want nothing to do with him until he shaped up? Did it matter that his friends Sirius and Lupin might still have been behaving like assholes even after James had grown out of it, or was James able to convince Lily that they were cool even if they hadn't "grown up" yet?
** What to make of his relationships with the other Marauders? If the others were still behaving like assholes even after he had stopped (so that he could have a chance with Lily), why
did he continue to hang out with them? Did his condescending UnderestimatingBadassery of Peter Pettigrew lead to Peter's FaceHeelTurn (and -- and thus his death)?
** Canon states that
own death? When he talked the others out of following through with a prank on Snape ended his own friendship with Lily the minute he called her a Mudblood even though this was in part triggered by the Marauders' constant bullying. James started a relationship with Lily after she thought he had changed but Sirius thinks he might that [[DeadlyPrank could have gotten him killed]], was he actually continued to bully students behind her back, especially Snape. Pettigrew stated that James wouldn't have wanted Sirius feeling guilty and Lupin to kill Snape. Of course you could argue that not killing someone is a very low standard to aspire to, and if Snape was killed then admonishing his friends would be in ''deep'' trouble, but on for going too far, or was he just trying to save his ass? (Interestingly, the latter question ''is'' asked in the narrative with no clear answer. Guess what Snape thinks.)
** Harry's abrupt discovery of what James [[BigManOnCampus was like in school]] may [[VoodooShark raise more questions than it solves]]. When
other hand that was a low barrier that Snape himself didn't pass (being characters talk about James before this point, one gets the impression that he was okay with the death of a genuinely upstanding guy all along. When Harry behaves like a good guy, everyone talks about how proud James and Harry, the would have been. His former who saved his life, and the latter an infant, solely so Lily could live, for him).
** The real problem with the character comes from re-reading the books. Until Book 5, all references to James in the series is very positive and we get next to no information on Lily. Everyone speaks positively of him, even
professors like [=McGonagall=], a generally unbiased figure, who despite James' trouble-making past grieves sincerely at his death, and indulges Harry by remarking how proud he would have been, wouldn't mince words about him having once been an asshole, speak universally positively of him. Even Voldemort sees treats him as a WorthyOpponent in Book 1 and Book 4, when he had little reason to lie duels him (and does so again in either situation. Yet ''Goblet of Fire'' when his echo appears out of the final three books skews the opposite manner ''Priori Incantatem''). But James acts like ''such'' an asshole when we see him in general, in a way {{Flashback}} that comes across as a {{Retcon}} it seems to make these earlier characterisations of him inconsistent, and it can even diminish the EmotionalTorque of his character on a second reading. It just seems like there are two totally distinct versions of James, for the sake of a ShockingSwerve, that worked as EmotionalTorque on first reading but and readers don't have any idea of which doesn't quite add to a consistent character on second reading. Many fans noted that James returning from one is the Resurrection Stone and telling Harry that he's SoProudOfYou, does not work emotionally since his two previous on-screen appearances (in the Snape's Worst Memory sequence and the Prince's Tale first scene) made him come off as unsympathetic and there's not enough real reasons given why Lily ultimately married him.
"real" one.
* Lily Potter, meanwhile, Potter is often thought of as a CanonSue. [[CharacterShilling Very few characters have anything mean to say about her]], and those who do usually hold a grudge against her of some sort (like Petunia, who became TheUnfavorite). Unlike James, we see little to suggest that she had any negative qualities. Her acting as Snape's MoralityPet further enhances this viewpoint. It also gets Freudian when Harry starts thinking of Ginny in the same terms and falls in love with her. Fan writers also suggest that Lily broke it off But her relationship with Snape for nothing - a mere slip of the tongue (never mind that it was a racial slur) - complicates matters somewhat, as opposed to the slur being the last straw.
** On the other hand, Lily was going to attack James, Sirius, Remus, and Peter to protect Snape from their bullying. She most definitely
she did stand up for him and she only when he was being bullied but broke off their friendship when pretty abruptly (even though he started hurling slurs at her. But it's also noted that when she does so she uses did call her a "Mudblood", which given the Marauders' own pet insult for Snape "Snivellus" environment was a pretty shocking thing to say to someone) and then tells him that he ought is later shown to wash his pants, and that earlier in be tight with all the scene, the narrative mentions that Marauders. Some fans think she was about to smile at James' antics, which suggests that she NotSoAboveItAll and secretly did share [[NotSoAboveItAll James' view of Snape all along]] but was too ashamed to admit it. They also note that she treats Snape with cold anger and contempt after the Snape's Worst Memory scene, keeps reminding Snape that his behaviour is irritating her other friends, and in the letter Harry finds, is fully absorbed in the Marauder's family, calling Sirius Padfoot and gloating secretly about the cat destroying Petunia's vase. None of which exactly suggests that Lily felt any great deal of affection for Snape, or that she was entirely opposed or critical approved of James' antics.treatment of Snape once she was convinced he was unrepentant of his actions. The less sane ones who [[DracoInLeatherPants glorify Snape]] think she overreacted to break it off with Snape to begin with (again, he used a ''slur'' against her, and this was not the only thing he did to piss her off).



** What made him turn out the way he is? Was he doomed to be evil from birth, or could he have become a better person had he believed there was someone who actually cared about him? WordOfGod tends to lean toward the latter, as she stated that he would have been better had his mother survived to raise him.
** [[https://www.facebook.com/groups/1395519290756676/permalink/1865612973747303/ According to this post]], some theorize that he actually did intend to honour [[spoiler: Snape's]] request to not kill Lily. While he killed James without hesitation, he warned Lily to get out of his way, and only killed her because she jumped in the way. The reason his body was destroyed was because he unintentionally broke a magic oath with [[spoiler: Snape]].
* Who are even the good guys? Many Death Eaters don't exactly share in Voldemort's fervour to TakeOverTheWorld. Some of them were high-ranking figures already, which suggests that they were attracted to the movement's ideology (which happens to be to exterminate everything that's not a pure-blooded wizard). Others suggest, though, that they're NotSoDifferent from the good guys, who themselves want to keep magic a secret from the world at large (to the point where [[spoiler: none of them bothered to break TheMasquerade during the ten months Voldemort took over their government even though it was a threat would have ended both societies and despite how many muggles were being killed at the point]]), have a very harsh and [[AllCrimesAreEqual sometimes disproportionate]] justice system, are fine with slavery, and [[FantasticRacism have their own discriminatory viewpoints]] (Dumbledore is implied to be astonishingly progressive to give Lupin and Hagrid jobs at Hogwarts, and he still has to keep Lupin's [[OurWerewolvesAreDifferent lycanthropy]] a secret). One common fan interpretation is that Wizarding Britain is incredibly backwards, insular, and prejudiced compared to other magical communities.

to:

** What made him turn out the way he is? Was he doomed to be evil from birth, or could he have become a better person had he believed there was someone who actually cared about him? WordOfGod tends to lean toward the latter, as she Rowling has stated that he would have been better had his mother survived to raise him.
** Would he have granted Snape's request that he not kill Lily? Some fans [[https://www.facebook.com/groups/1395519290756676/permalink/1865612973747303/ According to this post]], some theorize think he would have]]. We know that he actually did intend was ''trying'' to honour [[spoiler: Snape's]] request to not kill Lily. While he killed James without hesitation, he warned spare her, telling Lily to get out of his way, the way so that he could murder the baby Harry, but she [[HeroicSacrifice refused]], he said "fuck it" and only killed her because she jumped in her, and the way. The reason his rest is seven books of magical adventures. But these fans think that Lily's HeroicSacrifice wasn't the only explanation for Harry's survival and believe that Voldemort's body was destroyed was because he unintentionally broke a magic oath with [[spoiler: Snape]].
Snape.
* Who are even the good guys? Many Death Eaters don't exactly share in Voldemort's fervour to TakeOverTheWorld. Some of them were high-ranking figures already, which suggests that they were attracted to the movement's ideology (which happens to be to exterminate everything that's not a pure-blooded wizard). Others suggest, though, that they're NotSoDifferent from the good guys, who themselves want to keep magic a secret from the world at large (to the point where [[spoiler: none [[spoiler:none of them bothered to break TheMasquerade during the ten months Voldemort took over their government government, even though it was a threat would they could have ended both societies and despite how many muggles were being killed at the point]]), saved a ''lot'' of Muggle lives by doing so]]), have a very harsh and [[AllCrimesAreEqual sometimes disproportionate]] justice system, are fine with slavery, and [[FantasticRacism have their own discriminatory viewpoints]] (Dumbledore is implied to be astonishingly progressive to give Lupin and Hagrid jobs at Hogwarts, and he still has to keep Lupin's [[OurWerewolvesAreDifferent lycanthropy]] a secret). One common fan interpretation is that Wizarding Britain is incredibly backwards, insular, and prejudiced compared to other magical communities.



%%** Imagine you're a responsible minister, elected person, who was elected as a peacetime ruler for a time where you're trying, with all your *personal* preference, make things better for muggles. Like, you now, all that raids Fudge Ministry do against aristocratic manor*, raids so harsh *Malfoy* needed for sell his stuff out. Than first tome happened, when Dumbledor makes all this crazy stuff with a Stone (perfect bait for every dark wizard ever) hidden in a school, filled with children, and you can do nothing because Hogwarts autonomy. By luck nobody dies. Then second book happened, with some kind of monster actually attacking children (non-pureblood ones, keep in mind Ministry politics!), and Dumbledore doing essentially nothing at all. Well, Fudge trying to protect Dumbledore, but no luck. Again, nobody dies... so everybody happy, but you have a lot of question to answer about. Third tome? it's dangerous criminal hiding in a Hogwarts (by the way, bonus points to Fudge for being, like, only human person for the time, who actually spoke with a Black in his cell and leaving him a newspaper; at least nothing saying anybody else bothered); Dumbledore protege is found in assotiation (and a werewolf as a bonus point). Well, again, nobody dies. Then at last somebody dies - and it's student AND Barty Crouch Senior (for crying it loud!), and Dumbledore starting wailing about Voldemort who returned, and all this mentions is Voldemort doing. What would you do?
* Is Dolores Umbridge a KnightTemplar who truly believes in absolute loyalty to the Ministry? Or is she a mindless sycophant who only cares about power and parrots the views of the establishment for her own gain? Creator/ImeldaStaunton, who played her in the movies, subscribes to the first interpretation.
** Fans are also divided on whether she truly supported the Death Eaters when they took over or if she merely joined them out of fear of losing her position or even her life under the new regime. Or maybe she's just a sadist and the Death Eaters give her free license to torture a pretty large group of people, even among fellow wizards.
** Rowling has stated that Umbridge's beliefs fall into line with the Death Eaters, but yet she never officially became one herself. Was this due to a rare EvenEvilHasStandards situation on her part, or was she just too scared to put her life on the line for the cause?
* Was Barty Crouch Senior a well-intentioned KnightTemplar fighting the Death Eaters in the way which he believed was best? Or was he just a power-hungry bureaucrat with motives no better than that of his Death Eater opponents?

to:

%%** Imagine you're a responsible minister, elected person, who was elected as a peacetime ruler for a time where you're trying, with all your *personal* preference, make things better for muggles. Like, you now, all that raids Fudge Ministry do against aristocratic manor*, raids so harsh *Malfoy* needed for sell his stuff out. Than first tome happened, when Dumbledor makes all this crazy stuff with a Stone (perfect bait for every dark wizard ever) hidden in a school, filled with children, and you can do nothing because Hogwarts autonomy. By luck nobody dies. Then second book happened, with some kind of monster actually attacking children (non-pureblood ones, keep in mind Ministry politics!), and Dumbledore doing essentially nothing at all. Well, Fudge trying to protect Dumbledore, but no luck. Again, nobody dies... so everybody happy, but you have a lot of question to answer about. Third tome? it's dangerous criminal hiding in a Hogwarts (by the way, bonus points to Fudge for being, like, only human person for the time, who actually spoke with a Black in his cell and leaving him a newspaper; at least nothing saying anybody else bothered); Dumbledore protege is found in assotiation (and a werewolf as a bonus point). Well, again, nobody dies. Then at last somebody dies - and it's student AND Barty Crouch Senior (for crying it loud!), and Dumbledore starting wailing about Voldemort who returned, and all this mentions is Voldemort doing. What would you do?
* Is Dolores Umbridge Umbridge:
** Is she
a KnightTemplar who truly believes in absolute loyalty to the Ministry? Or is she a mindless sycophant who only cares about power and parrots the views of the establishment for her own gain? Creator/ImeldaStaunton, who played her in the movies, subscribes to the first interpretation.
** Fans are also divided on whether Did she truly supported support the Death Eaters when they took over over, or if did she merely joined just go along with them out of fear of losing to save her position or even her life under the new regime. Or maybe she's just a sadist and the Death Eaters give her free license to torture a pretty large group of people, even among fellow wizards.
**
own bacon? Rowling has stated that Umbridge's while a lot of her beliefs fall into line up with those of the Death Eaters, but yet she never officially became one herself. Was one, but this due to a rare EvenEvilHasStandards situation on her part, still raises some questions; did she [[EvenEvilHasStandards think they went too far]], or was she just too scared a {{sadist}} who didn't want to put her life on the line for the cause?
''join'' them but saw an opportunity to torture a lot of people?
* Was Barty Crouch Senior a well-intentioned KnightTemplar fighting the Death Eaters in the way which he believed was best? Or was he just a power-hungry bureaucrat with motives no better than that those of his Death Eater opponents?



* Remus Lupin: A beleaguered good guy trying to make the best of his life despite the hand he's been dealt, or a DirtyCoward who lets good opportunities pass him by because he's too mired in his self-pity to make more of himself? This second theory was birthed from his attempt to run away from Tonks and their unborn child in the seventh book, with many projecting his issues there backwards across his life.

to:

* Is Remus Lupin: A Lupin a beleaguered good guy trying to make the best of his life despite the hand he's been dealt, or dealt? Or is he a DirtyCoward who lets good opportunities pass him by because he's too mired in his self-pity to make more of himself? This second theory was birthed is a question that arose from his attempt ''Deathly Hallows'', when he tries to run away from Tonks and their unborn child child, which causes a reassessment of his character in light of the seventh book, with many projecting his issues there backwards across his life.we know about him. It even forces Harry into asking this question (and, interestingly, he's inclined to believe the DirtyCoward theory and [[WhatTheHellHero calls him out on it]]). [[spoiler:Not that it helps, because he and Tonks are both killed by the end.]]



** Is Slytherin a house of AlwaysChaoticEvil Pureblood fanatics? WordOfGod says no, they're much more nuanced. However, we don't see much evidence of this in the books, but Harry is a Gryffindor, has a real rivalry with Slytherin, and might just [[UnreliableNarrator not want to see any redeeming qualities]]. The most positively portrayed Slytherin, Horace Slughorn, is an AntiHero who still has subtle traces of Pureblood Supremacy. Officially, they're the house of ambition, but AmbitionIsEvil in the story. Fan writers like to suggest that they're NotEvilJustMisunderstood - a house that likes being edgy, sticking up for each other, and finding hidden potential. Pureblood fanaticism on that large a scale seems kind of impractical, anyway.
*** Its founder, Salazar Slytherin, is not painted well in the books - he was known to have built the Chamber of Secrets, which housed the Muggle-killing Basilisk, and he did have a falling out with the other founders over whether or not to accept Muggle-born students. This suggests that he really was a Pureblood supremacist, but one interpretation suggests that since the BurnTheWitch trope was alive and well at the time, he didn't have anything against Muggles ''per se'', but was a pragmatist who didn't want to open the school up to attack by Muggles. Under this interpretation, the Chamber of Secrets was a defense against a possible attack.
*** Hogwarts appears to be founded in the 990s or so, the BurnTheWitch thing didn't get underway until the mid-1400s. There were isolated incidents in the Founder's time, but not the hundreds of thousands we see during the Early Modern Period. So it might have been the fear that the Muggle-borns would attract unwanted attention, as a pure- or half-blood would have parents who could mitigate the damage?
** Hufflepuff is so often portrayed as "the House of All The Rest" that [[HufflepuffHouse it named a trope]]. Fans naturally wanted to explore their positive traits, but they differ on what those are. Some suggest it's the House of goal-oriented hard workers, so much so that they'll eschew glory just to get stuff done. Others suggest it's the House of love, friendship, and community. Still others suggest they're just LawfulStupid.
*** Much like Salazar Slytherin, Helga Hufflepuff has been reinterpretted in some works as the OnlySaneMan. In this view Hufflepuff wasn't "all the rest" because she especially valued community, but because she knew children didn't have a firm grasp of their identity at age 11 and that dividing students up based on personality was a bad idea.
*** By the way, imagine what an eleven-year-old child would think when the Sorting Hat singing their song at the Sorting Ceremony DIRECTLY making Hufflepuff a "House of All The Rest" - somebody who isn't brave enough for Gryffindor, clever enough for Ravenclaw or pure enough for Slytherin, and making a very hard point that the hat isn't ever mistaken. No wonder why some consider Hufflepuff House as a dumping ground for students that the other founders wouldn't consider "worthy".
* Knockturn Alley: WretchedHive filled with the worst Wizarding Britain has to offer with highly illegal goods openly displayed? Or a ghetto filled with those too poor to live in Diagon Alley, containing both legitimate and illegitimate business?
* Snape's friends at Hogwarts. Were they actually friends or did they only hang out with him in order to draw him to Voldemort's side? On the other side, did Snape hold any true affection towards his Slytherin friends or did he hang around them for status/protection?
** Related to the above, it has been noted that they didn't defend him (at least as far as we've seen) while he was being bullied by the marauders in Snape's Worst Memory. Were they just not there at the time or did they not care?
** And on that note, what was his relationship with Voldemort, anyway? Was Snape just in over his head when it all began, foolishly letting himself be used (and his darker tendencies exploited) by a power-hungry narcissist with a god complex? Or did they legitimately see themselves in each other, and build a pseudo-friendship out of mutual respect for each other's talents? Voldemort's apparent willingness to spare Lily when asked, trust in Snape's loyalty, and even the fact that he taught Snape his spell for unsupported flight, all surprisingly imply the latter.
* Pius Thiknesse seemed a lot more animated than most people under the Imperius Curse. Was he truly under the Imperius Curse or did he decide to truly join the Death Eaters once they took over? Was he ever really under the Imperius Curse or did Yaxley and Voldemort lie in order to keep Pius's Death Eater status a secret? The fact that he's a full blown Death Eater in the movies and that he took part in the final battle adds further confusion.
** In the movies, the one scene where we get a good look at him, Pious is with the Death Eaters, but appears vague and disoriented. This seems to fit the book's claim that he is acting under the Imperious Curse. Additionally, many people under the Imperious Curse must have seemed normal much of the time, or they would have been found out easier. In the books, Fudge was suspected of being under the Imperious Curse by some members of the Order for a period of months while actively being Minister for Magic and working hard against Dumbledore. This indicates that the members of the Order believed a man under the Imperious Curse could act for an extended period of time while under it without his co-workers noticing. Also in the books, Pious Thickness ''did'' actively act as Minister for Magic while under the curse without one character ever mentioning any "odd behavior".
* Professor Trelawney is, in the books themselves and by other characters, generally regarded as a fraud who's only ever made two real prophecies in her life. However, it has been argued by fans that many of her predictions are at least MetaphoricallyTrue, creating the interpretation that she does genuinely have the sight but is simply bad at interpreting what she sees. Others see her as a charlatan who makes vague and broad predictions that are likely to be true without any actual knowledge of the future.
** The franchise doesn't explain much about divination, but it seems that Trelawney was a genuine seer in the sense that she was able to receive prophecies. In that case, the sight is an inborn ability (much like parseltongue) rather than something that can be learned, whereas the form of divination she taught (that is, interpreting omens) is probably no different from muggle "psychic abilities." Even Dumbledore didn't see any merit in this type of divination and was planning on cutting the subject out of Hogwarts's curriculum altogether until Trelawney gave the prophecy about Harry. It's possible Dumbledore ensured his own access to Trelawney by hiring her because, although she can't teach the students anything useful, she's one of only a few people who can tell genuine prophecies (and he didn't want her falling into Voldemort's hands).
* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude ''actually'' genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never serving the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt it was too much, so he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labour they’re forced to do [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron claims to Moses (who at this point is still part of the Egyptian Royal Family and has no idea about his Hebrew heritage) that he likes the work the Hebrews are forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister Miriam]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]] and most wizards, [[FantasticRacism who aren't open-minded people]], just take these claims at face value so they don't have to bother themselves with the implication of having slaves?
** At one point, Hermione speculates that the House-Elves [[StockholmSyndrome are psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], [[TruthInTelevision which is something that has happened to slaves in real life]]. When you read into it more, you realize that this assumption actually does have a lot of basis in fact; the House-Elves are psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey their masters. If they're mentally compelled to do ''that'' to themselves, what other things are they mentally compelled to do to themselves?
** The series also repeatedly demonstrates that the house-elves are fine with working for wizards [[BecauseYouWereNiceToMe as long as their masters treat them with kindness]]. With that in mind, it explains why the Hogwarts house-elves are upset when Hermione tries to trick them into being freed by leaving out hats and socks for them. Serving at Hogwarts under [[BigGood Dumbledore]] is the best job that a house-elf can get in Wizarding Britian, so being forced to leave would have forced them into an even worse enslavement, something that Hermione [[DidntThinkThisThrough clearly doesn't consider at all]].
* Did Petunia and Vernon Dursley take in Harry because the former deep down actually cared about her sister Lily, and that extended to her son? Or was it because they were afraid that Dumbledore and/or the Death Eaters would have gone after them if they didn’t become Harry’s guardians? [[DoorstopBaby Given how Harry was delivered to them in the first place]] they could have easily hidden the letter, called the cops, and lied that they didn’t know who the baby was or why he was abandoned there. Furthermore, was part of the reason why the Dursleys hated Harry was because they were (seemingly) given no choice in the matter of raising him since Dumbledore dumped the kid on their doorstep in the middle of the night with only a letter explaining what happened to James and Lily ''and'' left them no way to contact him so they could actually talk about it and/or negogiate for reimbursment?

to:

** Is Slytherin a house of AlwaysChaoticEvil Pureblood fanatics? WordOfGod says no, they're much more nuanced. However, we We don't see much evidence of this in the books, but Harry is a Gryffindor, has a real rivalry with Slytherin, and might just [[UnreliableNarrator not want to see any redeeming qualities]]. The most positively portrayed Slytherin, Horace Slughorn, is an AntiHero who still has subtle traces of Pureblood Supremacy.supremacist thinking. Officially, they're the house of ambition, but AmbitionIsEvil in the story. Fan writers like to suggest that they're NotEvilJustMisunderstood - a house that likes being edgy, sticking up for each other, and finding hidden potential. Pureblood fanaticism on that large a scale seems kind of impractical, anyway.
*** Its founder, Salazar Slytherin, is not painted well in the books - he was known to have built the Chamber of Secrets, which housed the Muggle-killing Basilisk, and he did have a falling out with the other founders over whether or not to accept Muggle-born students. This suggests that he really was a Pureblood supremacist, but one interpretation suggests that since the BurnTheWitch trope was alive and well at the time, time[[note]]Which is itself problematic under [[AllThereInTheManual the accepted timeline]], because Hogwarts was apparently founded in the late 10th Century and the large-scale witch-hunts didn't get underway until the mid-15th Century, but [[AnachronismStew whatever]][[/note]], he didn't have anything against Muggles ''per se'', but was a pragmatist who didn't want to open the school up to attack by Muggles. Under this interpretation, the Chamber of Secrets was a defense against a possible attack.
*** Hogwarts appears to be founded in the 990s or so, the BurnTheWitch thing didn't get underway until the mid-1400s. There were isolated incidents in the Founder's time, but not the hundreds of thousands we see during the Early Modern Period. So it might have been the fear
attack. Others suggest that the Muggle-borns would attract unwanted attention, as Basilisk wasn't intended to kill people, but Tom Riddle found a pure- or half-blood would have parents who could mitigate the damage?
way to change that.
** Hufflepuff is so often portrayed as "the House of All The the Rest" that [[HufflepuffHouse it named a trope]]. Fans naturally wanted to explore their positive traits, but they differ on what those are. Some suggest it's the House of goal-oriented hard workers, so much so that they'll eschew glory just to get stuff done. Others suggest it's the House of love, friendship, and community. Still others suggest they're just LawfulStupid.
*** Much like Salazar Slytherin,
LawfulStupid. And some suggest it's ''designed'' to be "the House of All the Rest", painting its founder Helga Hufflepuff has been reinterpretted in some works as the OnlySaneMan. In this view Hufflepuff wasn't "all the rest" because she especially OnlySaneMan who valued community, but because she knew children community and didn't like the idea of dividing 11-year-old students up by personality (when kids that age probably don't have a firm grasp of their identity at age 11 and that dividing students up based on personality was a bad idea.
*** By the way, imagine what an eleven-year-old child would think when the
anyway). The Sorting Hat singing their song at the Sorting Ceremony DIRECTLY making itself seems to characterise Hufflepuff a "House of All The Rest" - somebody this way at one point, almost as if to discourage anyone from wanting to be sorted there; maybe they just don't want kids who isn't brave enough for Gryffindor, clever enough for Ravenclaw or pure enough for Slytherin, and making feel a very hard point that the hat isn't ever mistaken. No wonder why some consider Hufflepuff House as a dumping ground for students that the other founders wouldn't consider "worthy".
strong need to "fit in" with any given group.
* Knockturn Alley: WretchedHive filled with the worst Wizarding Britain has to offer with highly illegal goods openly displayed? Or a ghetto filled with those too poor to live in Diagon Alley, containing both legitimate and illegitimate business?
businesses?
* Snape's friends at Hogwarts. Were they actually friends or did they only hang out with him in order What to draw him to make of Pius Thicknesse, Voldemort's side? On the other side, did Snape hold any true affection towards his Slytherin friends or did he hang around them for status/protection?
** Related to the above, it has been noted that they didn't defend him (at least as far as we've seen) while
[[TheQuisling puppet Minister of Magic]]? Officially, he was being bullied by under [[{{Brainwashing}} the marauders in Snape's Worst Memory. Were they just not there at the time or did they not care?
** And on that note, what was his relationship with Voldemort, anyway? Was Snape just in over his head when it all began, foolishly letting himself be used (and his darker tendencies exploited) by a power-hungry narcissist with a god complex? Or did they legitimately see themselves in each other, and build a pseudo-friendship out of mutual respect for each other's talents? Voldemort's apparent willingness to spare Lily when asked, trust in Snape's loyalty, and even the fact that
Imperius Curse]], but he taught Snape his spell for unsupported flight, all surprisingly imply the latter.
* Pius Thiknesse
seemed a lot more animated little more... ''animated'' than most people under the Imperius Curse. Was Imperius, and nobody else ever seemed to mention that his behaviour was pretty odd, so maybe he truly under the Imperius Curse or did he decide ''was'' in control -- and had [[FaceHeelTurn defected to truly join the Death Eaters once they took over? Was he ever really under the Eaters]]. It could be a matter of some Imperius Curse or did Yaxley practitioners being more adept than others; the Order previously mentions a rumour that Cornelius Fudge was under Imperius and Voldemort lie seemed not to think it unusual that his co-workers wouldn't notice. In the films, it's even more confusing, as he looks vague and disoriented as one might expect under Imperius, but in order to keep Pius's this case he ''is'' a full-blown Death Eater status a secret? The fact that he's a full blown Death Eater in the movies and that he even took part in the final battle adds further confusion.
** In
on the movies, the one scene where we get a good look at him, Pious is with the Death Eaters, but appears vague and disoriented. This seems to fit the book's claim that he is acting under the Imperious Curse. Additionally, many people under the Imperious Curse must have seemed normal much of the time, or they would have been found out easier. In the books, Fudge was suspected of being under the Imperious Curse by some members of the Order for a period of months while actively being Minister for Magic and working hard against Dumbledore. This indicates that the members of the Order believed a man under the Imperious Curse could act for an extended period of time while under it without his co-workers noticing. Also in the books, Pious Thickness ''did'' actively act as Minister for Magic while under the curse without one character ever mentioning any "odd behavior".
wrong side.
* Professor Trelawney is, in the books themselves and by other characters, generally regarded as a fraud who's only ever made two real prophecies in her life. However, it has been argued by fans that many of her predictions are at least MetaphoricallyTrue, creating the interpretation that she does genuinely have the sight but is simply bad at interpreting what she sees. Others see her as a charlatan who makes vague and broad predictions that are likely to be true without any actual knowledge of the future.
** The franchise doesn't explain much about divination, but it seems that Trelawney was a genuine seer
future. Divination is not very well explained in the sense that she was able to receive prophecies. In that case, series, and it's left ambiguous whether the sight practice has any value at all. Another question is an inborn ability (much like parseltongue) rather than something that can be learned, whereas the form of divination she taught (that is, interpreting omens) is probably no different from muggle "psychic abilities." Even why Dumbledore didn't see any merit in this type of divination and was planning on cutting the subject out of Hogwarts's curriculum altogether hired her, as he wasn't going to until Trelawney gave the prophecy about Harry. It's possible Dumbledore ensured his own access to Trelawney by hiring her because, although she can't teach the students anything useful, she's launched into one of only a few people who can tell genuine prophecies (and the two real prophecies; was he didn't genuinely impressed and thought she could teach, or did he just want her nearby so that he could listen in case she did it again (and prevent her from falling into Voldemort's hands).
hands)?
* The house-elves epitomise the SlaveRace, which raises a lot of questions:
**
With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] they [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude ''actually'' genuine? Are the House-Elves house-elves just saying they’re they're fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t can't fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long that [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t wouldn't know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how were freed]]? Even Dobby's idea of freedom is "never serving isn't "not working", but "not working for the Malfoys again Malfoys", and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid happily works for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby while insisting on being paid less than he was uncomfortable with this because offered, which raises its own questions -- is he felt it was genuinely conditioned not to want too much, so much money, or does he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for not want the slave labour they’re forced other house-elves to do [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron claims to Moses (who at this point turn on him? Hermione's own theory is still part of the Egyptian Royal Family and has no idea about his Hebrew heritage) that he likes the work the Hebrews are forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister Miriam]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]] and most wizards, [[FantasticRacism who aren't open-minded people]], just take these claims at face value so they don't have to bother themselves with the implication of having slaves?
** At one point, Hermione speculates that the House-Elves
they're [[StockholmSyndrome are psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], which is something [[TruthInTelevision which is something that has happened can happen to slaves in real life]]. When you read into it more, you realize that this assumption actually does have life]], and there's a lot to wonder about -- including house-elves' habit of basis in fact; the House-Elves are psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey punishing themselves]] for failing their masters. If they're mentally compelled to do ''that'' to themselves, what other things are they mentally compelled to do to themselves?
masters.
** The series also repeatedly demonstrates other question is what to make of wizards who seem okay with this sort of thing. Hermione seems to be the only one who's utterly horrified at their treatment. Is there something that she's missing, or is the Wizarding world -- which has [[FantasticRacism never had a reputation for open-mindedness]] -- just not thinking about it too hard and accepting the house-elves' claims at face value? Furthermore, even if Hermione is right, is her methodology appropriate? Consider how offended the house-elves are fine when she starts leaving hats and socks for them to find as a means of tricking them into freedom -- if it works, and they are released from Dumbledore's employment, they may just wander off to work for someone else, who's very likely not to be as kind to them as Dumbledore. It is a recurring theme among house-elves (as seen with working for wizards Kreacher's treatment of the heroes) that they're much more likely not to betray you [[BecauseYouWereNiceToMe as long as their masters the better you treat them with kindness]]. With that in mind, it explains why the Hogwarts house-elves are upset when Hermione tries to trick them into being freed by leaving out hats and socks for them. Serving at Hogwarts under [[BigGood Dumbledore]] is the best job that a house-elf can get in Wizarding Britian, so being forced to leave would have forced them into an even worse enslavement, something that Hermione [[DidntThinkThisThrough clearly doesn't consider at all]].
them]].
* Did Why did Petunia and Vernon Dursley even take in Harry in? Was it because the former deep down actually cared down, Petunia really did care about her sister Lily, Lily and that extended wish to protect her son? Or was it because they were afraid that did Dumbledore and/or the Death Eaters would have gone after badger them if they didn’t become Harry’s guardians? [[DoorstopBaby Given how into doing it? Harry was delivered to them in a literal DoorstopBaby, and the first place]] they could have easily hidden the letter, called the cops, and lied that they didn’t know who the baby was or only explanation as to why he was abandoned there. Furthermore, there was part of the reason why the Dursleys hated Harry was because they were (seemingly) given no choice in the matter of raising him since a letter Dumbledore dumped the kid on their doorstep in the middle of the night with only a letter left explaining what had happened to James and Lily ''and'' left Harry's parents -- a letter which described them no way to contact him so as having been killed by an evil wizard who will kill them too, but if they could take in the kid they get magical protection from said evil wizard. How is a Muggle family going to react to that? Why would they believe that? (More importantly, why would the old reactionary ''Vernon'' believe that?) Why wouldn't they go to the Muggle police, or at the very least ask Dumbledore for some clarification? Petunia does prevent Vernon from actually talk about it and/or negogiate kicking Harry out, but that could be for reimbursment?either one of the above reasons.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
"All The Rest" isn't a trope.


** Hufflepuff is so often portrayed as "the House of AllTheRest" that [[HufflepuffHouse it named a trope]]. Fans naturally wanted to explore their positive traits, but they differ on what those are. Some suggest it's the House of goal-oriented hard workers, so much so that they'll eschew glory just to get stuff done. Others suggest it's the House of love, friendship, and community. Still others suggest they're just LawfulStupid.

to:

** Hufflepuff is so often portrayed as "the House of AllTheRest" All The Rest" that [[HufflepuffHouse it named a trope]]. Fans naturally wanted to explore their positive traits, but they differ on what those are. Some suggest it's the House of goal-oriented hard workers, so much so that they'll eschew glory just to get stuff done. Others suggest it's the House of love, friendship, and community. Still others suggest they're just LawfulStupid.



*** By the way, imagine what an eleven-year-old child would think when the Sorting Hat singing their song at the Sorting Ceremony DIRECTLY making Hufflepuff a "House of AllTheRest" - somebody who isn't brave enough for Gryffindor, clever enough for Ravenclaw or pure enough for Slytherin, and making a very hard point that the hat isn't ever mistaken. No wonder why some consider Hufflepuff House as a dumping ground for students that the other founders wouldn't consider "worthy".

to:

*** By the way, imagine what an eleven-year-old child would think when the Sorting Hat singing their song at the Sorting Ceremony DIRECTLY making Hufflepuff a "House of AllTheRest" All The Rest" - somebody who isn't brave enough for Gryffindor, clever enough for Ravenclaw or pure enough for Slytherin, and making a very hard point that the hat isn't ever mistaken. No wonder why some consider Hufflepuff House as a dumping ground for students that the other founders wouldn't consider "worthy".
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** Their treatment of Percy in particular is subject to many interpretations. Did they enjoy teasing and pranking him because they loved getting their normally formal brother riled up? Was the treatment mostly an effort to get Percy to loosen up and stop being such as stickler for the establishment? Or did they resent that their mother constantly praised him and admonished them and they took this frustration out on him in the form of jokes?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** On a somewhat Meta level, some readers have argued Ginny gets too much CharacterShilling and feels a bit idealized and any negative traits she has are often brushed aside. Is this a sign of bad writing on Rowling’s part or is it the natural result of the books being told through Harry’s perspective, so her idealization is somewhat [[JustifiedTrope justified]]?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* Did Petunia and Vernon Dursley take in Harry because the former deep down actually cared about Lily? Or was it because they were afraid that Dumbledore and/or the Death Eaters would have gone after them if they didn’t become Harry’s guardians? Given how Dumbledore [[DoorstopBaby dumped Harry on their doorstep with only a letter explaining what happened to James and Lily]] they could have easily hidden the letter, called the cops, and lied that they didn’t know who the baby was or why he was abandoned there. Furthermore, was part of the reason why the Dursleys hated Harry was because they were seemingly given no choice in the matter of raising him since Dumbledore dumped Harry on their doorstep in the middle of the night with no way to contact him so they could actually talk about it?

to:

* Did Petunia and Vernon Dursley take in Harry because the former deep down actually cared about Lily? her sister Lily, and that extended to her son? Or was it because they were afraid that Dumbledore and/or the Death Eaters would have gone after them if they didn’t become Harry’s guardians? Given how Dumbledore [[DoorstopBaby dumped Given how Harry on their doorstep with only a letter explaining what happened was delivered to James and Lily]] them in the first place]] they could have easily hidden the letter, called the cops, and lied that they didn’t know who the baby was or why he was abandoned there. Furthermore, was part of the reason why the Dursleys hated Harry was because they were seemingly (seemingly) given no choice in the matter of raising him since Dumbledore dumped Harry the kid on their doorstep in the middle of the night with only a letter explaining what happened to James and Lily ''and'' left them no way to contact him so they could actually talk about it?it and/or negogiate for reimbursment?

Changed: -23

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude ''actually'' genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never serving the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt it was too much, so he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron claims to Moses (who at this point is still part of the Egyptian Royal Family and has no idea about his Hebrew heritage) that he likes the work the Hebrews are forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister Miriam]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]] and most wizards, [[FantasticRacism who aren't open-minded people]], just take these claims at face value so they don't have to bother themselves with the implication of having slaves?

to:

* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude ''actually'' genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never serving the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt it was too much, so he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labor labour they’re forced to do [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron claims to Moses (who at this point is still part of the Egyptian Royal Family and has no idea about his Hebrew heritage) that he likes the work the Hebrews are forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister Miriam]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]] and most wizards, [[FantasticRacism who aren't open-minded people]], just take these claims at face value so they don't have to bother themselves with the implication of having slaves?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* Who are even the good guys? Many Death Eaters don't exactly share in Voldemort's fervor to TakeOverTheWorld. Some of them were high-ranking figures already, which suggests that they were attracted to the movement's ideology (which happens to be to exterminate everything that's not a pure-blooded wizard). Others suggest, though, that they're NotSoDifferent from the good guys, who themselves want to keep magic a secret from the world at large (to the point where [[spoiler: none of them bothered to break TheMasquerade during the ten months Voldemort took over their government even though it was a threat would have ended both societies and despite how many muggles were being killed at the point]]), have a very harsh and [[AllCrimesAreEqual sometimes disproportionate]] justice system, are fine with slavery, and [[FantasticRacism have their own discriminatory viewpoints]] (Dumbledore is implied to be astonishingly progressive to give Lupin and Hagrid jobs at Hogwarts, and he still has to keep Lupin's [[OurWerewolvesAreDifferent lycanthropy]] a secret). One common fan interpretation is that Wizarding Britain is incredibly backwards, insular, and prejudiced compared to other magical communities.

to:

* Who are even the good guys? Many Death Eaters don't exactly share in Voldemort's fervor fervour to TakeOverTheWorld. Some of them were high-ranking figures already, which suggests that they were attracted to the movement's ideology (which happens to be to exterminate everything that's not a pure-blooded wizard). Others suggest, though, that they're NotSoDifferent from the good guys, who themselves want to keep magic a secret from the world at large (to the point where [[spoiler: none of them bothered to break TheMasquerade during the ten months Voldemort took over their government even though it was a threat would have ended both societies and despite how many muggles were being killed at the point]]), have a very harsh and [[AllCrimesAreEqual sometimes disproportionate]] justice system, are fine with slavery, and [[FantasticRacism have their own discriminatory viewpoints]] (Dumbledore is implied to be astonishingly progressive to give Lupin and Hagrid jobs at Hogwarts, and he still has to keep Lupin's [[OurWerewolvesAreDifferent lycanthropy]] a secret). One common fan interpretation is that Wizarding Britain is incredibly backwards, insular, and prejudiced compared to other magical communities.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** [[https://www.facebook.com/groups/1395519290756676/permalink/1865612973747303/ According to this post]], some theorize that he actually did intend to honor [[spoiler: Snape's]] request to not kill Lily. While he killed James without hesitation, he warned Lily to get out of his way, and only killed her because she jumped in the way. The reason his body was destroyed was because he unintentionally broke a magic oath with [[spoiler: Snape]].

to:

** [[https://www.facebook.com/groups/1395519290756676/permalink/1865612973747303/ According to this post]], some theorize that he actually did intend to honor honour [[spoiler: Snape's]] request to not kill Lily. While he killed James without hesitation, he warned Lily to get out of his way, and only killed her because she jumped in the way. The reason his body was destroyed was because he unintentionally broke a magic oath with [[spoiler: Snape]].
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Is Harry TheHero and [[MessianicArchetype a genuine savior]], or is he a trust-fund orphan whose {{deceased parents|arethebest}} give him license to [[ItsAllAboutMe dismiss everyone else's problems as unimportant]]? Or is he a nice guy but just a poorly executed one? The first time he defeated Voldemort was through no action of his own, and [[spoiler:the second time was mostly taking advantage of Voldemort's inability to [[WhatIsThisThingYouCallLove understand love]] and he simply followed Dumbledore's plans]]. Some critics suggest that many of his victories were only based on luck (or Dumbledore's {{Batman Gambit}}s) as opposed to great skill with magic. Interestingly, Harry ''himself'' believes the former, only for Ron and Hermione to insist that these events also showed a bravery and resourcefulness that others don't have.

to:

** Is Harry TheHero and [[MessianicArchetype a genuine savior]], saviour]], or is he a trust-fund orphan whose {{deceased parents|arethebest}} give him license to [[ItsAllAboutMe dismiss everyone else's problems as unimportant]]? Or is he a nice guy but just a poorly executed one? The first time he defeated Voldemort was through no action of his own, and [[spoiler:the second time was mostly taking advantage of Voldemort's inability to [[WhatIsThisThingYouCallLove understand love]] and he simply followed Dumbledore's plans]]. Some critics suggest that many of his victories were only based on luck (or Dumbledore's {{Batman Gambit}}s) as opposed to great skill with magic. Interestingly, Harry ''himself'' believes the former, only for Ron and Hermione to insist that these events also showed a bravery and resourcefulness that others don't have.



** Also, a commonly argued point: was Dumbledore rewarding good behavior as he saw it while allowing natural consequences for bad behavior? Or was he outright showing favoritism to Gryffindor over the rest of the student population, especially Slytherin?

to:

** Also, a commonly argued point: was Dumbledore rewarding good behavior as he saw it while allowing natural consequences for bad behavior? Or was he outright showing favoritism favouritism to Gryffindor over the rest of the student population, especially Slytherin?



** There's also the issue of how his "redemption" explains his abusive approach to education. It's painfully obvious that he hates Harry and as WordOfGod confirmed wouldn't have cared for him had he not been Lily's son and that he was wildly obnoxious as a teacher to him and other students (Neville, Hermione and others). But some defenders explain this bullying by arguing that he was being a StealthMentor or that it was Snape being SlaveToPR -- intended to fool Voldemort and the Death Eaters into thinking he's a ReverseMole, while critics note that Dumbledore repeatedly chided him for not showing Harry his best side, and that Snape's hatred for Harry led to many PoorCommunicationKills (the climax of ''Prisoner of Azkaban'' and ''Order of the Phoenix'') that ultimately favored Voldemort's plans. [[note]]In the case of Book 3, his GlorySeeker obsession of wanting to capture Sirius led him to go down the Whomping Willow tunnel, overlooking Remus not taking the Wolfsbane Potion and refusing a peaceful resolution by which Sirius offered to turn himself in to Dumbledore as long as he brought evidence to vindicate him, while Snape wanted [[HangingJudge to straight away feed him to Dementors]] and then insisting on defending his views by insulting James which led to Harry knocking him out which led to the GambitPileup that led to Peter's escape and Voldemort's return. In Book 5, his terrible teaching of Occlumency and poor treatment of Harry led to such a breakdown that Harry didn't think of consulting Snape when he had the vision of Sirius. Had Snape been a ''little'' cordial and professional, in either case, that entire situation could have been avoided. While both Dumbledore, and Remus take responsibility for their role in those incidents (though Harry's own behaviour in the Occlumency lessons was similarly terrible, not bothering to put in the practice and finally abusing Snape's trust by looking at his most private memories while Snape was dealing with an emergency), Snape never once apologizes or gets called out for his misbehavior in the plots.[[/note]] Defenders explain his hatred for Neville by noting that he feels Lily would have lived had Voldemort chosen him, but others note that this just makes Snape's MoralMyopia worse and only highlights his narcissism and general LackOfEmpathy and further prevents him from truly owning for his actions. Likewise, while his reasons for hating Sirius makes sense and is justified (he was nearly a victim of the latter's DeadlyPrank and he probably blamed Sirius for Lily's death), this doesn't justify him trying to feed him to the Dementors when he offered to come quietly and insisted on bringing evidence to Dumbledore, nor does it excuse his own intelligence failure in not recognizing Wormtail as the spy, and the fact that he himself only dodged Azkaban because of Dumbledore's patronage.

to:

** There's also the issue of how his "redemption" explains his abusive approach to education. It's painfully obvious that he hates Harry and as WordOfGod confirmed wouldn't have cared for him had he not been Lily's son and that he was wildly obnoxious as a teacher to him and other students (Neville, Hermione and others). But some defenders explain this bullying by arguing that he was being a StealthMentor or that it was Snape being SlaveToPR -- intended to fool Voldemort and the Death Eaters into thinking he's a ReverseMole, while critics note that Dumbledore repeatedly chided him for not showing Harry his best side, and that Snape's hatred for Harry led to many PoorCommunicationKills (the climax of ''Prisoner of Azkaban'' and ''Order of the Phoenix'') that ultimately favored favoured Voldemort's plans. [[note]]In the case of Book 3, his GlorySeeker obsession of wanting to capture Sirius led him to go down the Whomping Willow tunnel, overlooking Remus not taking the Wolfsbane Potion and refusing a peaceful resolution by which Sirius offered to turn himself in to Dumbledore as long as he brought evidence to vindicate him, while Snape wanted [[HangingJudge to straight away feed him to Dementors]] and then insisting on defending his views by insulting James which led to Harry knocking him out which led to the GambitPileup that led to Peter's escape and Voldemort's return. In Book 5, his terrible teaching of Occlumency and poor treatment of Harry led to such a breakdown that Harry didn't think of consulting Snape when he had the vision of Sirius. Had Snape been a ''little'' cordial and professional, in either case, that entire situation could have been avoided. While both Dumbledore, and Remus take responsibility for their role in those incidents (though Harry's own behaviour in the Occlumency lessons was similarly terrible, not bothering to put in the practice and finally abusing Snape's trust by looking at his most private memories while Snape was dealing with an emergency), Snape never once apologizes or gets called out for his misbehavior in the plots.[[/note]] Defenders explain his hatred for Neville by noting that he feels Lily would have lived had Voldemort chosen him, but others note that this just makes Snape's MoralMyopia worse and only highlights his narcissism and general LackOfEmpathy and further prevents him from truly owning for his actions. Likewise, while his reasons for hating Sirius makes sense and is justified (he was nearly a victim of the latter's DeadlyPrank and he probably blamed Sirius for Lily's death), this doesn't justify him trying to feed him to the Dementors when he offered to come quietly and insisted on bringing evidence to Dumbledore, nor does it excuse his own intelligence failure in not recognizing Wormtail as the spy, and the fact that he himself only dodged Azkaban because of Dumbledore's patronage.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** The series also repeatedly demonstrates that the house-elves are fine with working for wizards [[BecauseYouWereNiceToMe as long as their masters treat them with kindness]]. With that in mind, it explains why the Hogwarts house-elves are upset when Hermione tries to trick them into being freed by leaving out hats and socks for them. Serving at Hogwarts under [[BigGood Dumbledore]] is the best job that a house-elf can get in Wizarding Britian, so being forced to leave would have forced them into an even worse enslavement, something that Hermione [[DidntThinkThisThrough clearly doesn't consider at all]].

to:

** The series also repeatedly demonstrates that the house-elves are fine with working for wizards [[BecauseYouWereNiceToMe as long as their masters treat them with kindness]]. With that in mind, it explains why the Hogwarts house-elves are upset when Hermione tries to trick them into being freed by leaving out hats and socks for them. Serving at Hogwarts under [[BigGood Dumbledore]] is the best job that a house-elf can get in Wizarding Britian, so being forced to leave would have forced them into an even worse enslavement, something that Hermione [[DidntThinkThisThrough clearly doesn't consider at all]].all]].
* Did Petunia and Vernon Dursley take in Harry because the former deep down actually cared about Lily? Or was it because they were afraid that Dumbledore and/or the Death Eaters would have gone after them if they didn’t become Harry’s guardians? Given how Dumbledore [[DoorstopBaby dumped Harry on their doorstep with only a letter explaining what happened to James and Lily]] they could have easily hidden the letter, called the cops, and lied that they didn’t know who the baby was or why he was abandoned there. Furthermore, was part of the reason why the Dursleys hated Harry was because they were seemingly given no choice in the matter of raising him since Dumbledore dumped Harry on their doorstep in the middle of the night with no way to contact him so they could actually talk about it?

Added: 1420

Changed: 60

Removed: 3904

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
A lot of not-very-well-written natter that basically boils down to this main point. Feel free to re-post it if you feel it's helpful to the argument. Also, the paragraph points out that Vernon and Dursley couldn't have been that badly affected by the Horcrux in Harry.


** Snape has his worst memory about being humiliated by his rival and about alienating a girl he loved with his own words. Other people in this time has their worst memories about their parents, siblings and loved ones being killed horribly by the side Snape is openly sympathetic to.
** It's also notable that Snape does '''not,''' in fact, truly apologize to Lily. More than a cursory reading of the scene shows that he keeps saying "I'm sorry, I'm sorry," but never says what he's sorry for. He never admits to her that calling her a Mudblood is bad, and when she [[ArmorPiercingQuestion inquires why she should be different when he calls everyone of her birth "Mudblood,"]] Snape is notably silent. In response, instead of shaking off Malfoy and co and sincerely trying to change, as James did, Snape merely continued to spend time with the wrong crowd. Given that there are no more memories of his and Lily's interacting, it's hard to see Snape as having grown up at all.



*** Additionally confusing the issue is the fact that he's an AdaptationalNiceGuy in the movies, which remove many of his most {{Jerkass}} moments. While the Alan Rickman!Snape is presented more or less as a JerkWithAHeartOfGold, the book!Snape is a SadistTeacher who bullies Neville to the extent that he is the latter's ''greatest fear'' during third year, constantly mocks Hermione, and has far more dirty baggage than his film counterpart.



** Canon states that Snape ended his own friendship with Lily the minute he called her a mudblood even though this was in part triggered by The Marauders' constant bullying. James started a relationship with Lily after she thought he had changed but Sirius thinks he might have actually continued to bully students behind her back, especially Snape. Pettigrew stated that James wouldn't have wanted Sirius and Lupin to kill Snape. Of course you could argue that not killing someone is a very low standard to aspire to, and if Snape was killed then his friends would be in ''deep'' trouble, but on the other hand that was a low barrier that Snape himself didn't pass (being that he was okay with the death of James and Harry, the former who saved his life, and the latter an infant, solely so Lily could live, for him).

to:

** Canon states that Snape ended his own friendship with Lily the minute he called her a mudblood Mudblood even though this was in part triggered by The the Marauders' constant bullying. James started a relationship with Lily after she thought he had changed but Sirius thinks he might have actually continued to bully students behind her back, especially Snape. Pettigrew stated that James wouldn't have wanted Sirius and Lupin to kill Snape. Of course you could argue that not killing someone is a very low standard to aspire to, and if Snape was killed then his friends would be in ''deep'' trouble, but on the other hand that was a low barrier that Snape himself didn't pass (being that he was okay with the death of James and Harry, the former who saved his life, and the latter an infant, solely so Lily could live, for him).



** Actually, it's worth noting: a) Snape was actually quite successful socially in school, as part of Slug Club, teammate of Malfoy (for crying it loud!) and things like that. b) We saw James Potter bulling Snape; but let's not forget Snape directly jelaous to Potter's fame and popularity, and doing everything in his power (including breaking the rules to run into that hut with Lupin) trying to make them seem bad. c) Let's not also forget it's a war outside, where Snape is leaning to one side without any doubt from anybody, Lily Potter (who protected him before The Worst Memory against her own classmates - considering same Snape saying to _Lily_ that cursing a halfblood girl from Griffindor is a good thing; imagine what did he said in public, and how Fiery Lion Guys reacted!). d) Same thing is about James Potter and "no reason for Lily marrying him". James Potter attacking a definite Voldemort-lover in a world where Voldemort killing muggles and halfblooded (and pureblooded as well), in a world where such behaviour is really no-good for your well-being. Why would muggle-blood Lily appreciate that?.. Essentially, let's not forget bigger context of situation when Snape's Worst Memory happened. Snape has his worst memory about being humiliated by his rival and about alienating a girl he loved with his own words. Other people in this time has their worst memories about their parents, siblings and loved ones being killed horribly by the side Snape is openly sympathetic to.



* We all know the [[{{Jerkass}} Dursleys]] [[ResentfulGuardian have been everything]] [[AbusiveParents BUT a doting family]] for Harry through the books and movies, and nothing will '''''ever''''' justify how they treated him. Yet, how much of their jerkassery was actually all their fault? Some people have theorized that, [[spoiler:since Harry was a horcrux, those that come into contact with a horcrux for too long end up acting like jerks, and Harry had been living under the Dursleys' roof for 11 years (whereas people like Ron and Hermione don't necessarily spend ''that much'' next to him)]], it may be possible that the Dursleys acting as awfully as they did was a result of them [[spoiler:[[JerkassWoobie being affected by the fragment of Voldemort's soul inside Harry]]]]. Obviously, the prologue shows that they were jerks before they adopted Harry, but even then, [[spoiler:[[TakeAThirdOption what if living with a horcrux under their homes made them worse than before and they were only minimally jerkish in the beginning]]]]? After all, despite hating wizards and magic in general, the Dursleys DID allow Harry to live under their roof and kept him for more than 11 years. Sure, [[JerkWithAHeartOfJerk they had him sleep in the closet below the stairs and often starved him]], but if they hated and feared him and his powers so much, why did they not just give him up for adoption, or refuse to take him in when Harry showed up on their doorstep? Even if Dumbledore, Hagrid, or other wizards would have forbidden them to do so, it would then mean they should already have been prepared for when Harry got his letter to Hogwarts. This would also [[FridgeBrilliance make for a good explanation]] as to why, in a deleted scene on the final film, Dudley apologized to Harry for all the bad years they had together and wished him good luck.
** Except Ron, Hermione, and everyone at Hogwarts never exhibited any "Horcrux proximity symptoms" despite spending ten months in close proximity to Harry, and the Dursleys were just as awful after ten months away from Harry as they were before he went to Hogwarts. Also, consider Aunt Marge. The Dursleys were abusive and had no valid excuse.
*** Except, perhaps, fear. Vernon Dursley, in particular, was terrified of magic. He was an abusive bastard, but he still took in someone who frightened him, if only because his wife likely insisted to save Harry's life.



** The franchise doesn't explain much about divination, but it seems that Trelawney was a genuine seer in the sense that she was able to receive prophecies. In that case, the sight is an inborn ability (much like parseltongue) rather than something that can be learned, whereas the form of divination she taught (that is, interpreting omens) is probably no different from muggle "psychic abilities." Even Dumbledore didn't see any merit in this type of divination and was planning on cutting the subject out of Hogwarts's curriculum altogether until Trelawney gave the prophecy about Harry. It's possible Dumbledore ensured his own access to Trelawney by hiring her because, although she can't teach the students anything useful, she's one of only a few people who can tell genuine prophecies.

to:

** The franchise doesn't explain much about divination, but it seems that Trelawney was a genuine seer in the sense that she was able to receive prophecies. In that case, the sight is an inborn ability (much like parseltongue) rather than something that can be learned, whereas the form of divination she taught (that is, interpreting omens) is probably no different from muggle "psychic abilities." Even Dumbledore didn't see any merit in this type of divination and was planning on cutting the subject out of Hogwarts's curriculum altogether until Trelawney gave the prophecy about Harry. It's possible Dumbledore ensured his own access to Trelawney by hiring her because, although she can't teach the students anything useful, she's one of only a few people who can tell genuine prophecies.prophecies (and he didn't want her falling into Voldemort's hands).
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* Who are even the good guys? Many Death Eaters don't exactly share in Voldemort's fervor to TakeOverTheWorld. Some of them were high-ranking figures already, which suggests that they were attracted to the movement's ideology (which happens to be to exterminate everything that's not a pure-blooded wizard). Others suggest, though, that they're NotSoDifferent from the good guys, who themselves want to keep magic a secret from the world at large, have a very harsh and sometimes disproportionate justice system, and have their own discriminatory viewpoints (Dumbledore is implied to be astonishingly progressive to give Lupin and Hagrid jobs at Hogwarts, and he still has to keep Lupin's [[OurWerewolvesAreDifferent lycanthropy]] a secret). One common fan interpretation is that Wizarding Britain is incredibly backwards, insular, and prejudiced compared to other magical communities.

to:

* Who are even the good guys? Many Death Eaters don't exactly share in Voldemort's fervor to TakeOverTheWorld. Some of them were high-ranking figures already, which suggests that they were attracted to the movement's ideology (which happens to be to exterminate everything that's not a pure-blooded wizard). Others suggest, though, that they're NotSoDifferent from the good guys, who themselves want to keep magic a secret from the world at large, large (to the point where [[spoiler: none of them bothered to break TheMasquerade during the ten months Voldemort took over their government even though it was a threat would have ended both societies and despite how many muggles were being killed at the point]]), have a very harsh and [[AllCrimesAreEqual sometimes disproportionate disproportionate]] justice system, are fine with slavery, and [[FantasticRacism have their own discriminatory viewpoints viewpoints]] (Dumbledore is implied to be astonishingly progressive to give Lupin and Hagrid jobs at Hogwarts, and he still has to keep Lupin's [[OurWerewolvesAreDifferent lycanthropy]] a secret). One common fan interpretation is that Wizarding Britain is incredibly backwards, insular, and prejudiced compared to other magical communities.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Hufflepuff is so often portrayed as "the House of all the rest" that [[HufflepuffHouse it named a trope]]. Fans naturally wanted to explore their positive traits, but they differ on what those are. Some suggest it's the House of goal-oriented hard workers, so much so that they'll eschew glory just to get stuff done. Others suggest it's the House of love, friendship, and community. Still others suggest they're just LawfulStupid.

to:

** Hufflepuff is so often portrayed as "the House of all the rest" AllTheRest" that [[HufflepuffHouse it named a trope]]. Fans naturally wanted to explore their positive traits, but they differ on what those are. Some suggest it's the House of goal-oriented hard workers, so much so that they'll eschew glory just to get stuff done. Others suggest it's the House of love, friendship, and community. Still others suggest they're just LawfulStupid.



*** By the way, imagine what an eleven-year-old child would think when the Sorting Hat singing their song at the Sorting Ceremony DIRECTLY making Hufflepuff a "House of all the rest" - somebody who isn't brave enough for Gryffindor, clever enough for Ravenclaw or pure enough for Slytherin, and making a very hard point that the hat isn't ever mistaken.

to:

*** By the way, imagine what an eleven-year-old child would think when the Sorting Hat singing their song at the Sorting Ceremony DIRECTLY making Hufflepuff a "House of all the rest" AllTheRest" - somebody who isn't brave enough for Gryffindor, clever enough for Ravenclaw or pure enough for Slytherin, and making a very hard point that the hat isn't ever mistaken.mistaken. No wonder why some consider Hufflepuff House as a dumping ground for students that the other founders wouldn't consider "worthy".
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Commetting it out until the bad grammer can be fixed


** Imagine you're a responsible minister, elected person, who was elected as a peacetime ruler for a time where you're trying, with all your *personal* preference, make things better for muggles. Like, you now, all that raids Fudge Ministry do against aristocratic manor*, raids so harsh *Malfoy* needed for sell his stuff out. Than first tome happened, when Dumbledor makes all this crazy stuff with a Stone (perfect bait for every dark wizard ever) hidden in a school, filled with children, and you can do nothing because Hogwarts autonomy. By luck nobody dies. Then second book happened, with some kind of monster actually attacking children (non-pureblood ones, keep in mind Ministry politics!), and Dumbledore doing essentially nothing at all. Well, Fudge trying to protect Dumbledore, but no luck. Again, nobody dies... so everybody happy, but you have a lot of question to answer about. Third tome? it's dangerous criminal hiding in a Hogwarts (by the way, bonus points to Fudge for being, like, only human person for the time, who actually spoke with a Black in his cell and leaving him a newspaper; at least nothing saying anybody else bothered); Dumbledore protege is found in assotiation (and a werewolf as a bonus point). Well, again, nobody dies. Then at last somebody dies - and it's student AND Barty Crouch Senior (for crying it loud!), and Dumbledore starting wailing about Voldemort who returned, and all this mentions is Voldemort doing. What would you do?

to:

** %%** Imagine you're a responsible minister, elected person, who was elected as a peacetime ruler for a time where you're trying, with all your *personal* preference, make things better for muggles. Like, you now, all that raids Fudge Ministry do against aristocratic manor*, raids so harsh *Malfoy* needed for sell his stuff out. Than first tome happened, when Dumbledor makes all this crazy stuff with a Stone (perfect bait for every dark wizard ever) hidden in a school, filled with children, and you can do nothing because Hogwarts autonomy. By luck nobody dies. Then second book happened, with some kind of monster actually attacking children (non-pureblood ones, keep in mind Ministry politics!), and Dumbledore doing essentially nothing at all. Well, Fudge trying to protect Dumbledore, but no luck. Again, nobody dies... so everybody happy, but you have a lot of question to answer about. Third tome? it's dangerous criminal hiding in a Hogwarts (by the way, bonus points to Fudge for being, like, only human person for the time, who actually spoke with a Black in his cell and leaving him a newspaper; at least nothing saying anybody else bothered); Dumbledore protege is found in assotiation (and a werewolf as a bonus point). Well, again, nobody dies. Then at last somebody dies - and it's student AND Barty Crouch Senior (for crying it loud!), and Dumbledore starting wailing about Voldemort who returned, and all this mentions is Voldemort doing. What would you do?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Gryffindor is where Harry is, so naturally we see the most of it and it's painted in the best light. It's nominally the house of courage and chivalry, but some fans see it more as a house full of {{Jerk Jock}}s, {{Glory Hound}}s, and the PopularIsDumb crowd.

to:

** Gryffindor is where the house Harry is, belongs to, so naturally we see the most of it and it's painted in the best light. It's nominally the house of courage and chivalry, but some fans see it more as a house full of {{Jerk Jock}}s, {{Glory Hound}}s, and the PopularIsDumb crowd.



** Is Slytherin a house of AlwaysChaoticEvil Pureblood fanatics? WordOfGod says no, they're much more nuanced. We don't see much evidence of this in the books, but Harry is a Gryffindor, has a real rivalry with Slytherin, and might just [[UnreliableNarrator not want to see any redeeming qualities]]. The most positively portrayed Slytherin, Horace Slughorn, is an AntiHero who still has traces of Pureblood prejudice. Officially, they're the house of ambition, but AmbitionIsEvil. Fan writers like to suggest that they're NotEvilJustMisunderstood - a house that likes being edgy, sticking up for each other, and finding hidden potential. Pureblood fanaticism on that large a scale seems kind of impractical, anyway.

to:

** Is Slytherin a house of AlwaysChaoticEvil Pureblood fanatics? WordOfGod says no, they're much more nuanced. We However, we don't see much evidence of this in the books, but Harry is a Gryffindor, has a real rivalry with Slytherin, and might just [[UnreliableNarrator not want to see any redeeming qualities]]. The most positively portrayed Slytherin, Horace Slughorn, is an AntiHero who still has subtle traces of Pureblood prejudice. Supremacy. Officially, they're the house of ambition, but AmbitionIsEvil.AmbitionIsEvil in the story. Fan writers like to suggest that they're NotEvilJustMisunderstood - a house that likes being edgy, sticking up for each other, and finding hidden potential. Pureblood fanaticism on that large a scale seems kind of impractical, anyway.



*** By the way, imagine what would eleven-old child think when Hat sing their song DIRECTLY making Hufflepuff a House of the rest - somebody who isn't brave enough for Griffindor, clever enough for Ravenclaw or pure enough for Slytherin, and making a very hard point that Hat isn't mistaken ever.

to:

*** By the way, imagine what an eleven-year-old child would eleven-old child think when the Sorting Hat sing singing their song at the Sorting Ceremony DIRECTLY making Hufflepuff a House "House of all the rest rest" - somebody who isn't brave enough for Griffindor, Gryffindor, clever enough for Ravenclaw or pure enough for Slytherin, and making a very hard point that Hat the hat isn't mistaken ever.ever mistaken.



* Professor Trelawney is, in the books themselves, generally regarded as a fraud who's only ever made two real prophecies in her life. However, it has been argued by fans that many of her predictions are at least MetaphoricallyTrue, creating the interpretation that she does genuinely have the sight but is simply bad at interpreting what she sees. Others see her as a charlatan who makes vague and broad predictions that are likely to be true without any actual knowledge of the future.

to:

* Professor Trelawney is, in the books themselves, themselves and by other characters, generally regarded as a fraud who's only ever made two real prophecies in her life. However, it has been argued by fans that many of her predictions are at least MetaphoricallyTrue, creating the interpretation that she does genuinely have the sight but is simply bad at interpreting what she sees. Others see her as a charlatan who makes vague and broad predictions that are likely to be true without any actual knowledge of the future.



* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude ''actually'' genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never serving the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt it was too much, so he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he likes the work the Hebrews are forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister Miriam]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]] and most wizards, [[FantasticRacism who aren't open-minded people]], just take these claims at face value?
** At one point, Hermione speculates that the House-Elves [[StockholmSyndrome are psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], [[TruthInTelevision which is something that has happened to slaves in real life]]. When you read into it more, you realize that this assumption actually does have a lot of basis in fact; the House-Elves are psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey their masters. If they're mentally compelled to ''SelfHarm'' themselves, what other things are they mentally compelled to do to themselves?

to:

* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude ''actually'' genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never serving the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt it was too much, so he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to Moses (who at this point is still part of the Egyptian overseers Royal Family and has no idea about his Hebrew heritage) that he likes the work the Hebrews are forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister Miriam]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]] and most wizards, [[FantasticRacism who aren't open-minded people]], just take these claims at face value?
value so they don't have to bother themselves with the implication of having slaves?
** At one point, Hermione speculates that the House-Elves [[StockholmSyndrome are psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], [[TruthInTelevision which is something that has happened to slaves in real life]]. When you read into it more, you realize that this assumption actually does have a lot of basis in fact; the House-Elves are psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey their masters. If they're mentally compelled to ''SelfHarm'' do ''that'' to themselves, what other things are they mentally compelled to do to themselves?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude ''actually'' genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never serving the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt it was too much, so he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he likes the work he forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]] and most wizards, [[FantasticRacism who aren't exactly open-minded]] when it comes to anybody who's [[WhatMeasureIsANonHuman non-human]], [[HalfHumanHybrid part-human]], and/or {{Muggle}}s, just take it at face value so they can just sweep the issue under the rug?

to:

* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude ''actually'' genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never serving the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt it was too much, so he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he likes the work he the Hebrews are forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister]] sister Miriam]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]] and most wizards, [[FantasticRacism who aren't exactly open-minded]] when it comes to anybody who's [[WhatMeasureIsANonHuman non-human]], [[HalfHumanHybrid part-human]], and/or {{Muggle}}s, open-minded people]], just take it these claims at face value so they can just sweep the issue under the rug?value?



** The series also repeatedly demonstrates that the house-elves are fine with working for wizards [[BecauseYouWereNiceToMe as long as their masters treat them with kindness]]. With that in mind, it would also explain why the Hogwarts house-elves are upset when Hermione tries to trick them into being freed by leaving out hats and socks for them. Serving at Hogwarts under [[BigGood Dumbledore]] is the best job that a house-elf can get in Wizarding Britian, so being forced to leave Hogwarts would have forced them into an even worse enslavement, something that Hermione clearly doesn't consider at all.

to:

** The series also repeatedly demonstrates that the house-elves are fine with working for wizards [[BecauseYouWereNiceToMe as long as their masters treat them with kindness]]. With that in mind, it would also explain explains why the Hogwarts house-elves are upset when Hermione tries to trick them into being freed by leaving out hats and socks for them. Serving at Hogwarts under [[BigGood Dumbledore]] is the best job that a house-elf can get in Wizarding Britian, so being forced to leave Hogwarts would have forced them into an even worse enslavement, something that Hermione [[DidntThinkThisThrough clearly doesn't consider at all.all]].
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never serving the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt it was too much, so he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he likes the work he forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]] and most wizards, [[FantasticRacism who aren't exactly open-minded]] when it comes to anybody who's [[WhatMeasureIsANonHuman non-human]] and/or [[HalfHumanHybrid part-human]], just take it at face value so they won't have to bother themselves with the implications of owning slaves?

to:

* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually ''actually'' genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never serving the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt it was too much, so he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he likes the work he forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]] and most wizards, [[FantasticRacism who aren't exactly open-minded]] when it comes to anybody who's [[WhatMeasureIsANonHuman non-human]] and/or non-human]], [[HalfHumanHybrid part-human]], and/or {{Muggle}}s, just take it at face value so they won't have to bother themselves with can just sweep the implications of owning slaves?issue under the rug?



** The series also repeatedly demonstrates that the house-elves are fine with working for wizards [[BecauseYouWereNiceToMe as long as their masters treat them with kindness]]. With that in mind, it would also explain why the Hogwarts house-elves are upset when Hermione tries to trick them by leaving out hats and socks for them in a misguided attempt to free them. Serving at Hogwarts under [[BigGood Dumbledore]] is the best job that a house-elf can get in Wizarding Britian, so being forced to leave Hogwarts would have forced them into an even worse enslavement.

to:

** The series also repeatedly demonstrates that the house-elves are fine with working for wizards [[BecauseYouWereNiceToMe as long as their masters treat them with kindness]]. With that in mind, it would also explain why the Hogwarts house-elves are upset when Hermione tries to trick them into being freed by leaving out hats and socks for them in a misguided attempt to free them. Serving at Hogwarts under [[BigGood Dumbledore]] is the best job that a house-elf can get in Wizarding Britian, so being forced to leave Hogwarts would have forced them into an even worse enslavement.enslavement, something that Hermione clearly doesn't consider at all.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never serving the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt it was too much, so he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he likes the work he forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]] and most wizards, [[FantasticRacism who aren't exactly open-minded]] when it comes to anybody who's non-human and/or [[HalfHumanHybrid part-human]], just take it at face value so they won't have to bother themselves with the implications of owning slaves?
** At one point, Hermione speculates that the House-Elves [[StockholmSyndrome are psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], [[TruthInTelevision which is something that has happened to slaves in real life]]. When you read into it more, you realize that this assumption actually does have some basis in fact; the House-Elves are psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey their masters. If they're mentally conditioned to SelfHarm themselves, what other things are they mentally conditioned to do to themselves?

to:

* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never serving the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt it was too much, so he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he likes the work he forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]] and most wizards, [[FantasticRacism who aren't exactly open-minded]] when it comes to anybody who's non-human [[WhatMeasureIsANonHuman non-human]] and/or [[HalfHumanHybrid part-human]], just take it at face value so they won't have to bother themselves with the implications of owning slaves?
** At one point, Hermione speculates that the House-Elves [[StockholmSyndrome are psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], [[TruthInTelevision which is something that has happened to slaves in real life]]. When you read into it more, you realize that this assumption actually does have some a lot of basis in fact; the House-Elves are psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey their masters. If they're mentally conditioned compelled to SelfHarm ''SelfHarm'' themselves, what other things are they mentally conditioned compelled to do to themselves?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never serving the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt it was too much, so he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he likes the work he forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]] and most wizards, [[FantasticRacism who aren't exactly open-minded]] when it comes to anybody who's non-human and/or [[HalfHumanHybrid part-human]], just take those statements at face value so they won't have to bother themselves with the implications of owning slaves?
** At one point, Hermione speculates that the House-Elves [[StockholmSyndrome are psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], [[TruthInTelevision which is something that has happened to slaves in real life]]. When you read into it more, you realize that this assumption actually does have some basis in fact; the House-Elves are psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey their masters. If they're mentally conditioned to SelfHarm themselves, what else are they're mentally conditioned to do?

to:

* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never serving the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt it was too much, so he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he likes the work he forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]] and most wizards, [[FantasticRacism who aren't exactly open-minded]] when it comes to anybody who's non-human and/or [[HalfHumanHybrid part-human]], just take those statements it at face value so they won't have to bother themselves with the implications of owning slaves?
** At one point, Hermione speculates that the House-Elves [[StockholmSyndrome are psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], [[TruthInTelevision which is something that has happened to slaves in real life]]. When you read into it more, you realize that this assumption actually does have some basis in fact; the House-Elves are psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey their masters. If they're mentally conditioned to SelfHarm themselves, what else other things are they're they mentally conditioned to do?do to themselves?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never serving the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt it was too much, so he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he likes the work he forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]] and most wizards, [[FantasticRacism who aren't exactly open-minded]] [[GullibleLemmings self-thinkers]], just take those statements at face value so they won't have to bother themselves with the implications of owning slaves?

to:

* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never serving the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt it was too much, so he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he likes the work he forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]] and most wizards, [[FantasticRacism who aren't exactly open-minded]] [[GullibleLemmings self-thinkers]], when it comes to anybody who's non-human and/or [[HalfHumanHybrid part-human]], just take those statements at face value so they won't have to bother themselves with the implications of owning slaves?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never having to serve the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt it was too much, so he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do? [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he and Miriam like the work they’re forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]]

to:

* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never having to serve serving the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt it was too much, so he bargained ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do? do [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he and Miriam like likes the work they’re he forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]][[/note]] and most wizards, [[FantasticRacism who aren't exactly open-minded]] [[GullibleLemmings self-thinkers]], just take those statements at face value so they won't have to bother themselves with the implications of owning slaves?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved for so long they don't feel like they have any other life options because [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never having to serve the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it" instead of "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby felt this was too much and bargained down to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do? [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he and Miriam like the work they’re forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and his sister survive their life of slavery.[[/note]]
** At one point, Hermione speculates that the House-Elves [[StockholmSyndrome are psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], [[TruthInTelevision which is something that has happened to slaves in real life]]. In the series, the House-Elves are psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey their masters, so it wouldn't be that big of an assumption for Hermione's point to turn out to be true.

to:

* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long they don't feel like they have any other life options because [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never having to serve the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it" instead of it", not "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby was uncomfortable with this because he felt this it was too much and much, so he bargained down ''down'' to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming to be grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do? [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he and Miriam like the work they’re forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and [[BigBrotherInstinct his sister sister]] survive their life of slavery.[[/note]]
** At one point, Hermione speculates that the House-Elves [[StockholmSyndrome are psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], [[TruthInTelevision which is something that has happened to slaves in real life]]. In the series, When you read into it more, you realize that this assumption actually does have some basis in fact; the House-Elves are psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey their masters, so it wouldn't be that big of an assumption for Hermione's point masters. If they're mentally conditioned to turn out SelfHarm themselves, what else are they're mentally conditioned to be true.do?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** The series also repeatedly demonstrates that the house-elves are fine with working for wizards as long as their masters treat them with kindness. With that in mind, it would also explain why the Hogwarts house-elves are upset when Hermione tries to trick them by leaving out hats and socks for them in a misguided attempt to free them. Serving at Hogwarts under [[BigGood Dumbledore]] is the best job that a house-elf can get in Wizarding Britian, so being forced to leave Hogwarts would forced them into an even worse enslavement.

to:

** The series also repeatedly demonstrates that the house-elves are fine with working for wizards [[BecauseYouWereNiceToMe as long as their masters treat them with kindness.kindness]]. With that in mind, it would also explain why the Hogwarts house-elves are upset when Hermione tries to trick them by leaving out hats and socks for them in a misguided attempt to free them. Serving at Hogwarts under [[BigGood Dumbledore]] is the best job that a house-elf can get in Wizarding Britian, so being forced to leave Hogwarts would have forced them into an even worse enslavement.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved for so long they don't feel like they have any other life options because [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never having to serve the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it" instead of "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby felt this was too much and bargained down to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do? [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he and Miriam like the slave labor they’re forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and his sister survive for as long as they can.[[/note]]

to:

* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved for so long they don't feel like they have any other life options because [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is "never having to serve the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' who he serves while he gets paid for it" instead of "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby felt this was too much and bargained down to one Galleon a week and a day off per month instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do? [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he and Miriam like the slave labor work they’re forced to do, but he’s only saying that to help him and his sister survive for as long as they can.their life of slavery.[[/note]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, House-Elves [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved for so long they don't feel like they have any other options because [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]] [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is less "never having to serve wizards again" and more "never having to serve the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' which wizards he serves while he gets paid for it". Also, when Dumbledore offered him ten Galleons a week and weekends off when hiring Dobby to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby felt this was too much and bargained down one Galleon a week and a day off per month [[/note]]? Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do? [[note]] For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he and his sister Miriam like the slave labor they’re forced to do, but he’s only saying that because he knows that complaining will make things even worse for both of them. [[/note]]
** At one point, Hermione speculates that the House-Elves [[StockholmSyndrome are psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], [[TruthInTelevision which is something that has happened to slaves in real life]]. Considering how House-Elves are psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey their masters, it wouldn't be that big of an assumption for this to turn out to be true.
** The series also repeatedly demonstrates that the house-elves are fine with working for wizards as long as their masters treat them with kindness. With that in mind, it would also explain why the Hogwarts house-elves are upset when Hermione tries to trick them by leaving out hats and socks for them in a misguided attempt to free them. Serving at Hogwarts under [[BigGood Dumbledore]] is the best job that a house-elf can ask for in Wizarding Britian, so being forced to leave Hogwarts would forced them into an even worse enslavement.

to:

* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, House-Elves [[SlaveRace the House-Elves]] [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved for so long they don't feel like they have any other life options because [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]] wizards]]? [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is less "never having to serve wizards again" and more "never having to serve the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' which wizards who he serves while he gets paid for it". it" instead of "never serving wizards again". Also, when Dumbledore offered him Dobby ten Galleons a week and weekends off (which is the minumum wage in the Wizarding World) when hiring Dobby him to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby felt this was too much and bargained down to one Galleon a week and a day off per month [[/note]]? instead. [[/note]] Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do? [[note]] For [[note]]For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he and his sister Miriam like the slave labor they’re forced to do, but he’s only saying that because he knows that complaining will make things even worse to help him and his sister survive for both of them. as long as they can.[[/note]]
** At one point, Hermione speculates that the House-Elves [[StockholmSyndrome are psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], [[TruthInTelevision which is something that has happened to slaves in real life]]. Considering how In the series, the House-Elves are psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey their masters, so it wouldn't be that big of an assumption for this Hermione's point to turn out to be true.
** The series also repeatedly demonstrates that the house-elves are fine with working for wizards as long as their masters treat them with kindness. With that in mind, it would also explain why the Hogwarts house-elves are upset when Hermione tries to trick them by leaving out hats and socks for them in a misguided attempt to free them. Serving at Hogwarts under [[BigGood Dumbledore]] is the best job that a house-elf can ask for get in Wizarding Britian, so being forced to leave Hogwarts would forced them into an even worse enslavement.

Added: 538

Changed: 1268

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, House Elves [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or do they feel like they don’t have another option because [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]] [[note]]Consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is less "never having to serve wizards again" and more "being able to ''choose'' which wizards he serves". Also, when Dumbledore offered him ten Galleons a week and weekends off when hiring Dobby to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby felt this was too much and bargained down one Galleon a week and a day off per month [[/note]]? Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do [[note]] For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Arron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he and his sister Miriam like the slave labor they’re forced to do, but he’s only saying that because he knows that complaining will make things even worse for both of them. [[/note]]? Hermione also speculates at one point that House Elves [[StockholmSyndrome psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], [[TruthInTelevision something that has happened to real-life slaves]]. Considering how House Elves are psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey their masters, it wouldn't be that big of an assumption for this to turn out to be true.
** The series also repeatedly demonstrates that the house elves are fine with working for wizards as long as their masters treat them with kindness. It would also explain why the Hogwarts house elves are upset when Hermione tries to trick them by leaving out hats and socks for them in a misguided attempt to free them. Serving at Hogwarts under [[BigGood Dumbledore]] is the best job that a house elf can ask for; being forced to leave Hogwarts would force them into an even worse situation.

to:

* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, House Elves House-Elves [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House Elves House-Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or do have they been enslaved for so long they don't feel like they don’t have another option any other options because [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]] [[note]]Consider [[note]]For this point, consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is less "never having to serve wizards again" and more "being "never having to serve the Malfoys again and being able to ''choose'' which wizards he serves". serves while he gets paid for it". Also, when Dumbledore offered him ten Galleons a week and weekends off when hiring Dobby to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby felt this was too much and bargained down one Galleon a week and a day off per month [[/note]]? Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do do? [[note]] For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Arron Aaron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he and his sister Miriam like the slave labor they’re forced to do, but he’s only saying that because he knows that complaining will make things even worse for both of them. [[/note]]? [[/note]]
** At one point,
Hermione also speculates at one point that House Elves the House-Elves [[StockholmSyndrome are psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], [[TruthInTelevision which is something that has happened to real-life slaves]]. slaves in real life]]. Considering how House Elves House-Elves are psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey their masters, it wouldn't be that big of an assumption for this to turn out to be true.
** The series also repeatedly demonstrates that the house elves house-elves are fine with working for wizards as long as their masters treat them with kindness. It With that in mind, it would also explain why the Hogwarts house elves house-elves are upset when Hermione tries to trick them by leaving out hats and socks for them in a misguided attempt to free them. Serving at Hogwarts under [[BigGood Dumbledore]] is the best job that a house elf house-elf can ask for; for in Wizarding Britian, so being forced to leave Hogwarts would force forced them into an even worse situation.enslavement.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, House Elves [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or do they feel like they don’t have another option because [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do [[note]] For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Arron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he and his sister Miriam like the slave labor they’re forced to do, but he’s only saying that because he knows that complaining will make things even worse for both of them. [[/note]]? Hermione also speculates at one point that House Elves [[StockholmSyndrome psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], [[TruthInTelevision something that has happened to real-life slaves]]. Considering how House Elves are psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey their masters, it wouldn't be that big of an assumption for this to turn out to be true.

to:

* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, House Elves [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or do they feel like they don’t have another option because [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? wizards]] [[note]]Consider how Dobby's idea of freedom is less "never having to serve wizards again" and more "being able to ''choose'' which wizards he serves". Also, when Dumbledore offered him ten Galleons a week and weekends off when hiring Dobby to work in the Hogwarts kitchens, Dobby felt this was too much and bargained down one Galleon a week and a day off per month [[/note]]? Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do [[note]] For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Arron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he and his sister Miriam like the slave labor they’re forced to do, but he’s only saying that because he knows that complaining will make things even worse for both of them. [[/note]]? Hermione also speculates at one point that House Elves [[StockholmSyndrome psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], [[TruthInTelevision something that has happened to real-life slaves]]. Considering how House Elves are psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey their masters, it wouldn't be that big of an assumption for this to turn out to be true.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** The franchise doesn't explain much about divination, but it seems that Trelawney was a genuine seer in the sense that she was able to receive prophecies. In that case, the sight is an inborn ability (much like parseltongue) rather than something that can be learned, whereas the form of divination she taught (that is, interpreting omens) is probably no different from muggle "psychic abilities." Even Dumbledore didn't see any merit in this type of divination and was planning on cutting the subject out of Hogwarts's curriculum altogether until Trelawney gave the prophecy about Harry. It's possible Dumbledore ensured his own access to Trelawney by hiring her because, although she can't teach the students anything useful, she's one of only a few people who can tell genuine prophecies.

to:

** The franchise doesn't explain much about divination, but it seems that Trelawney was a genuine seer in the sense that she was able to receive prophecies. In that case, the sight is an inborn ability (much like parseltongue) rather than something that can be learned, whereas the form of divination she taught (that is, interpreting omens) is probably no different from muggle "psychic abilities." Even Dumbledore didn't see any merit in this type of divination and was planning on cutting the subject out of Hogwarts's curriculum altogether until Trelawney gave the prophecy about Harry. It's possible Dumbledore ensured his own access to Trelawney by hiring her because, although she can't teach the students anything useful, she's one of only a few people who can tell genuine prophecies.prophecies.
* With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, House Elves [[OrangeAndBlueMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude actually genuine? Are the House Elves just saying they’re fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can’t fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or do they feel like they don’t have another option because [[NotUsedToFreedom they don’t know what they would do if they weren’t serving wizards]]? Or are they just trying to avoid punishment from their human overseers by seeming grateful for the slave labor they’re forced to do [[note]] For example, in ''WesternAnimation/ThePrinceOfEgypt'', Arron repeatedly claims to the Egyptian overseers that he and his sister Miriam like the slave labor they’re forced to do, but he’s only saying that because he knows that complaining will make things even worse for both of them. [[/note]]? Hermione also speculates at one point that House Elves [[StockholmSyndrome psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], [[TruthInTelevision something that has happened to real-life slaves]]. Considering how House Elves are psychologically conditioned to [[SelfHarm physically punish themselves severely]] if they fail a task or disobey their masters, it wouldn't be that big of an assumption for this to turn out to be true.
** The series also repeatedly demonstrates that the house elves are fine with working for wizards as long as their masters treat them with kindness. It would also explain why the Hogwarts house elves are upset when Hermione tries to trick them by leaving out hats and socks for them in a misguided attempt to free them. Serving at Hogwarts under [[BigGood Dumbledore]] is the best job that a house elf can ask for; being forced to leave Hogwarts would force them into an even worse situation.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** In the movies, the one scene where we get a good look at him, Pious is with the Death Eaters, but appears vague and disoriented. This seems to fit the book's claim that he is acting under the Imperious Curse. Additionally, many people under the Imperious Curse must have seemed normal much of the time, or they would have been found out easier. In the books, Fudge was suspected of being under the Imperious Curse by some members of the Order for a period of months while actively being Minister for Magic and working hard against Dumbledore. This indicates that the members of the Order believed a man under the Imperious Curse could act for an extended period of time while under it without his co-workers noticing. Also in the books, Pious Thickness *did* actively act as Minister for Magic while under the curse without one character ever mentioning any "odd behavior".

to:

** In the movies, the one scene where we get a good look at him, Pious is with the Death Eaters, but appears vague and disoriented. This seems to fit the book's claim that he is acting under the Imperious Curse. Additionally, many people under the Imperious Curse must have seemed normal much of the time, or they would have been found out easier. In the books, Fudge was suspected of being under the Imperious Curse by some members of the Order for a period of months while actively being Minister for Magic and working hard against Dumbledore. This indicates that the members of the Order believed a man under the Imperious Curse could act for an extended period of time while under it without his co-workers noticing. Also in the books, Pious Thickness *did* ''did'' actively act as Minister for Magic while under the curse without one character ever mentioning any "odd behavior".

Top