For some yes, that would qualify for YMMV. Your protagonist, being somewhat heroic, elicits some sympathy by default (or is expected to, I don't know, we are supposed to root for the anti-Morgoth , light side and all that, aren't we?), unless you are clearly presenting a Villain Protagonist, which is not the case
For what is worth, I added the Jerskass entry in her character page and it was removed with some hostility if you want to read the reasoning
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Characters.RingsOfPowerElves#edit35316956
The writing is not really consistent and kind of erratic both ways. And the same applies to their statements
Edited by TrollBrutal
There was already a discussion on this one in this page, perhaps you should have continued it instead of just commenting out the example
Edited by TrollBrutal
Editor Doom Tay removed this from Narm
- Galadriel's sudden line "there is a tempest in me!" during her dramatic clash with Queen Miriel is usually singled out as an offbeat chuckle-inducing remark, coming across closer to a child tantrum than to the intended Badass Boast.
"a child tantrum" is over selling it. Also, is a You Tube video a good source? Does this trope even need "sources"?
The youtube video was just an example from many and the purpose to include sources was to point out is not just some troper opinion, but something that has been said by many many online reviewers (I don't even remember which video I linked, there is another one from instance, it takes second to find "sources" : RINGS OF POWER | Episode 4 - More Comedy Gold!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0ck9MeblZU)
Bottom line, you can find anywhere people saying or writing what the entry is saying (but with actual acrimony, that the line is atrocious and cringeworthy, induces derision, and so on). If calling it a "child trantrum" is a problem, then we can remove that part, this thread shows we have been trying to avoid negativity and complaining in good faith.
in that scene, personally, I interpreted that Galadriel was supposed to be a bit the Comically Serious and Big Ego Small Name, given that they cut the scene immediately with her in the prison and Halbrand made fun of her, also she reminded me too much of Daenerys' "childish tantrum" in season 2 against the spice king. I swear Dany and Galadriel acted in same way, and both demanded ships and got owned. "I am no ordinary woman" and " there is a tempest in me" both have same narmy energy, and people made videos on that moment of Dany too about how cringeworthy it was. I see nothing wrong with your example or adding a youtube video example, and I think it should be back, but are we sure is not intentional?
^That's largely my concern. Narm is about "supposed to be dramatic, but is unintentionally funny instead." Whereas I get the sense that that scene was in fact meant to be funny, which would disqualify it from Narm. Galadriel being so blatantly bossy and disrespectful to someone in a much more powerful position than her seemed like a moment that was begging to end with her being taken down a peg.
The line was prominently used in trailers and such, framed as a Badass Boast and widely interpreted as such, I can see the comic intent in the cut (ending up in jail after saying the words), but not in the words itself and the delivery and the out of the blue escalation. It's a tense situation gone bad, the final outcome can be intended to be funny, but no the in-between. IMO
For what is worth, people have found the lines are somehat taken from a serious scene from Cate Blanchet's (sp) Queen Elizabeth I.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2omBti2ki4 2
This was the video that was originally linked https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWEFwRoLxWU which looks to be one of *those* YouTubers. I should probably leave it at that
Rewritten with the points talked here as Narm Charm
- Narm Charm: Galadriel's sudden line "there is a tempest in me!" during her dramatic clash with Queen Miriel is usually singled out as an offbeat chuckle-inducing remark, instead of the intended Badass Boast initially invoked in the trailers. However the tantrum is cut short with a Smash Cut to Galadriel locked in a cell, so the whole scene works underscoring her Small Name, Big Ego.
Regarding this one for Unintentionally Sympathetic:
- Adar, during the scene where he’s getting interrogated by Galadriel and it’s revealed he was once a regular Elf corrupted by Morgoth. We’re supposed to be on Galadriel’s side and understand her violence towards him since Dark Is Evil yet it was very easy for some viewers to see him as a victim and Tragic Monster in the grander scheme of things. This was especially felt for some when Adar genuinely claims “We are creations of The One, Master of the Secret Fire, the same as you. As worthy of the breath of life, and just as worthy of a home” and she coldly rebuffs “Your kind was a mistake!”.
I'm not sold on the "Unintentional" part, it seems they are aiming to avoid a Black-and-White Morality and we are meant to empathize with the orcs to some degree.
If they want us to be on Galadriel side, (I don't think so, that would make her a Designated Hero and we are not there yet I think) they are doing a terrible job, but that's another matter
I'd say Rooting for the Empire
Edited by TrollBrutal Hide / Show Replies
I agree that it doesn't really count. The tone of the scene, and some of Adar's quotes, outright signify that the audience isn't supposed to empathize with her perspective in this moment.
People adding Galadriel's line about wanting to kill all orcs under Unintentionally Unsympathetic also seem to be missing the point. You're not supposed to agree with her there.
Right, the problem I see is the "there" , I agree with the purpose of the scene, but it affects everything really, once you have your protagonist saying nazi things it's hard for the character not to be unsympathetic forever, even if that Kick the Dog was intentional and specific, it kind of affects her whole perception in all other scenes or plots where she is not supposed to be unsympathetic.
I mean, am I going to root for a protagonist who was advocating for a Final Solution, really? Some "Not So Different" Remark here and there doesn't quite repair that...
But I digress... since we are agreeing it's intentionally nasty, I'm going to rewrite some of it under Kick the Dog , on the main page...
Done
Edited by TrollBrutal
Restored this one deleted by troper Shadowhaxon on principle (no reason, no removal) , I have really no particular opinion on it, agility triumphing strength in medieval combat is not 'laughable' per se - the word was used in a previous version -, and simple explanations can be cool if done well ... (not the case perhaps, the water dance and "stick them with the pointy end" come to mind as good writing)
- Galadriel's lecture on how agility is more important than strength (a style that fundamentally opposes how medieval combat and swordsmanship worked in the real world) is weakly explained, along with the way some of her exaggerated demonstrations were filmed while fighting the recruits, who have a number of easy openings on her to exploit and strike her body, but instead mostly opt to aim for her sword, and some of her awkward blocking maneuvers that would be easily shattered by a strong opponent. Moreover, agility might be very helpful in combat when one is an elf with superhuman reflexes, but not so much for a human warrior.
I don't think this is Narm. What we have is a combat demo that some viewers decided was too simplistic and just didn't like - that's not Narm, as it's not unintentionally amusing, as the trope demands. It's more a case of "I didn't like this scene because I know about medieval combat" - which is a little silly when discussing a fantasy series where humans are pitted against inhuman opponents.
The example would be a better fit under Flynning.
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Regarding "unintentionally amusing" , the original editor used the world "laughable" (which I changed to "weakly explained" to tone down the complaining) , because the explanation was found too simplistic, at its core basically being sting them to kill them. It can be funny for a master class to be so raw.
I don't have a problem with it being removed, the issue I see in the scene is the pseudo backflip and her smug face and pats (conveys showing off over teaching) , but probably not to the point of narm.
We could keep this as Fight Scene Failure: The recruits, who have a number of easy openings on her to exploit and strike her body, but instead mostly opt to aim for her sword But it can be really be explained away by they being, well unexperienced recruits
Edited by TrollBrutal
Flynning is a great fit here (that one escaped me until now - thanks caivu!) :) That fits with the showy, theatricality of the scene, as well as the Mook Chivalry involved.
From the Laconic tab: "Showy Hollywood swordfighting meant to look cool, protect actors, and appease Moral Guardians; but would definitely get one killed in real swordfighting."
What do you think, @Troll Brutal?
Edited by lexii
Definitely, it describes what transpires in the scene without making the example excessively complain-y.
Edited by TrollBrutal
Great! - shall we remove the entry from YMMV, and add it under Flynning on the main page (it's not a YMMV trope)?
Yes please do, I wasn't familiar enough with the details of Flynning to do the rewriting.
Thanks
I'm restoring this one
- Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Galadriel's brash nature, bluntness and impatience have caused some viewers and reviewers to deem her as being bratty and unlikable. An often cited example is when she demands resources from Númenor as if entitled to them then acts disrespectful to the Queen Regent, insisting on speaking to the "true ruler". This doesn't go too well.
She been viewed as unlikable is a fact https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2022/09/12/the-rings-of-power-has-a-galadriel-problem/?sh=4f70785d14dc , I could search for more if needed
She being flawed is one thing, that the way they managed to convey it makes her come off as repellent is another and not mutually exclusive, she has a chip on her shoulder even with Elrond.
The Numenor part seems like as an argument, behavior aside, even if she realizes her conceitedness after being told by Halbran (a character several milleniums old should know better), her predicament is still resolved via Deus ex Machina by the Valar and the petals of the tree, which doesn't endear her more to the viewer.
Come episode V and she remains belligerent impositive, and manipulative, only apologizing to Halbrand after the queen imposes he's needed to depart.
They are going to Character Development down the road, but tropers can write that it started with the wrong foot.
https://screenrant.com/rings-of-power-galadriel-unlikeable-lotr-difference-explained/
Forbes has been kind of worthless about covering the show past episode two (the aforementioned article being basically a exercise in the classic "(X) female character should smile more" but not having the courage of sticking with that argument out of fear of correctly having the argument torn to shreds for its stupidity). Anyhow, I don't mind the example staying if this is the consensus (as noted, you can still find a character more unlikeable than intended) but I feel like it should be at least rewritten. As it is, the example gives off the impression the character isn't intended to be standoffish when she very much is. The scene chosen to exemplify (Galadriel confronting Miriel) is probably the most unambiguously unsympathetic point she has in the show.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."
The thing is , critics fans and tropers calling her unlikable abound, even if one sees their arguments as weak, and it doesn't come only from what could be called by now hatedom, but from people who really want the show and characters to be good, but can't defend or just find something good to say about some things.
I'm not sure the writers managed to convey that she is the wrong in those Numenor scenes, but I'm okay with removing it, considering your reasoning I was unsure about restoring that part too or cutting it while keeping the overall rest.
Edited by TrollBrutal
I agree that the Galadriel unlikeability hasn't come only from the hatedom, I was just pointing out a personal dislike for Forbes' coverage. Your arguments are solid for the example to be maintained, I'd just hope for it be rewritten. I could do that later to cut the Miriel example and add a obligatory "While Galadriel is intended to be standoffish and belligerent at this point in time, viewers believe this has been exaggerated...".
"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Fine by me, If we want to put better examples than Numenor, I think the "you haven't seen what I have seen" scene (in which she explains nothing to friendly Elrond and she just repeats that instead, annoyed) is one that particularly rubs people the wrong way.
"At this point in time" // By mid season 1, is a good way to rephrase it, it still works in case the current Establishing Character Moment gets "repaired" by the intended Character Development
Edited by TrollBrutal
I have changed the example given as per this discussion. I agree that the "you have not seen what I have seen" moment is better.
Does the mithril stuff belong under Fan-Disliked Explanation, at least at the moment? There seems to be some wiggle room for the tree/lightning/Balrog elements to simply be some old legend; Elrond even says as much. A note to that effect would help, but I'm not sure if that would come off as a justifying edit.
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It seems like a not very becoming or well received reverse Doing In the Wizard moment, and it being shown in a flashy flashback with all those special effects and all (as opposed of it just being dropped as an oral tale, for instance) seems to heavily contradict it just being a myth, in my opinion.
I'd keep it.
Edited by TrollBrutal
[[HistoricalInJoke Smoking Snake]]
The user Lord Araghast has deleted edits with no justification. Common Knowledge and Discredited Meme, for one, appear to have been deleted with no justification and should be re-added.
"All you Fascists bound to lose." Hide / Show Replies
Agreed, though it might be worth taking up on the Ask The Tropers page.
For what it's worth, Discredited Meme is In-Universe Examples Only.
Edited by costanton11
There has been too much back and forth with this one
- And You Thought It Would Fail: Despite all the controversy, backlash, and even claims it would be a flop, the show still debuted with a whopping 25 million viewers within the first 24 hours, making it the largest premiere in the history of Amazon Prime.
My take is : I don't think the flagship of Amazon and adaptation of a behemoth opus fits the trope description, which is
"There are two ways the It Will Never Catch On trope could play out: it actually doesn't, or this. A work of literature, film or television — just getting started, purely original (if there is such a thing), unaffiliated with any previous book, movie or TV show, or if it is an adaptation, the work is relatively obscure — has little hope of standing out among the established goldmines of franchises. Critics mock it. The public isn't expecting it."
Edited by TrollBrutal Hide / Show Replies
Agree with Troll Brutal - a work of this type doesn’t fit. It’s not new, nor obscure. And the success of the cinematic trilogies show there was certainly appetite for more Middle-earth live action media.
And the controversy (mostly over Race Lift) is hardly a deal breaker - it’ll put a small minority off watching but not the majority of viewers.
Edited by lexii
I read those examples as just that: examples, and not the full extent of possibilities. From the Laconic page: "A work that people expect to flop becomes a smash hit instead."
That seems pretty clear to me. If there's a large group of people declaring something will be a flop, (regardless of the reason, or even if the reason makes no sense) and then it's not, it should count. That's what happened in this case. I don't see why "obscurity" should be a cutoff point when everything else applies.
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Laconic pages are what they are , quick and uncurated quick snippets that can be used sometimes for quick reference and just as often are not in harmony with trope definition or missing key requirements because they were not made when the trope itself was created, and/or well, they have to be laconic = short and condensed.
Trope definition and common usage (examples pages seem to contain obscure or unaestablished material, dubious premises met with skepticism, rejections from publishers etc) prevail over laconic everytime. Who is the people? Everybody can give their opinion easily these days, but the ones who would bet against a high-budget Tolkien fantasy in this age are an irrelevant minority, trope-wise.
The expectation for the show started as soon as it was announced... the trope being YMMV would give it some room for leeway in any case.
Edited by TrollBrutal
"...but the ones who would bet against a high-budget Tolkien fantasy in this age are an irrelevant minority, trope-wise."
What do you count as irrelevant? I agree that that section is a minority, but it's not exactly tiny, either. The trope description happened here in every respect aside from the show not being obscure enough; if it can go under something else, fine, but I don't know what that would be.
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Relevance is a tricky meassure yes, is "some guys on the internet" relevant enough, do they need to have respetability as critics, if not, do they count after they reach some quantity but not before? Those are valid questions, but above that, I think we are toing the line between people claiming "this is gonna suck" vs the ones really expecting "this is gonna fail." , the second group sounds a bit outlandish to me, given the factors, but I don't know, you can find detractors of everything nowadays.
I'm looking if there is a way (besides Overshadowed by Controversy, which does not apply either) to write the point without it being complaining about people complaining
Opinion Myopia could fit , people unreallistically expecting this phenomenon to bomb because it doesn't fit their views.
Edited by TrollBrutal
"I think we are toing the line between people claiming 'this is gonna suck' vs the ones really expecting 'this is gonna fail.'"
That's the thing, and what I tried to make clear in my edit reason. To a lot of people making the claim, they thought it was going to fail because they thought it was going to suck. A good number are still claiming it's somehow failing despite evidence to the contrary. It's not a rational view, but it is out there in sizable numbers.
That said, Opinion Myopia does seem like a good replacement.
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I'm a bit skeptical that the "There are certainly themes Tolkien felt were important..." quote under Memetic Mutation, supposedly from Peter Jackson, is genuine. I can't find a primary source for it, and it seems rather conveniently on-the-nose as a contrast to the producer quote in the same example. The source I keep seeing for it is a 2002 GreenCine interview, but the news arm of that company, GreenCine Daily, was apparently founded in 2003. The earliest place I've found the quote is an unofficial book from 2012. This doesn't mean the example should necessarily be removed, it should just have the quote noted as fake or unconfirmed if indeed it is.
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https://search.informit.org/doi/abs/10.3316/informit.955149832604228
Quoted in a January 2005 article after the Return of the King DVD released in May 2004. Probably on the extras then?
Good find. I'd still like to see that quote at its actual source, but it doesn't seem made up. Wonder where the whole 2002 GreenCine interview thing came from.
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Guys, are we sure that Galadriel is a good example of Unintentionally Unsympathetic? Here is what Morffyd said about her: "When I was cast as Galadriel, I was so excited about exploring this element of her – that she's not a saint, and she's from a family that has caused a huge amount of damage, and she realizes that she can only fully be in control of the side of her that could be twisted towards evil, as seen in the Third Age with Frodo. To show that side of her and for Adar to really... She's the closest to speechless she could ever be because he really truly sees her. It was really exciting to have what we were exploring with Galadriel, that she was not perfect, and she had this darkness inside of her and we have that come to a peak, which is what that scene felt like." And i also remember from some other interviews the producers saying that she is intentionally kind of an ass and antiheroic.
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