Discussion YMMV / PonyPOVSeries

The Author Tract entry doesn't belong on the YMMV tab, anyhow.

That said, I distinctly remember that Lunacorva already landed into trouble for unilateral YMMV removals - I'll message them.

Thanks. I'd also sent one of the form editing messages about it but if any discussion on accuracy of them is needed I'd be happy to explain why I hold the opinions for others to decide.

Ah! Good to see this is already in the discussion. I don't want to make the same mistake I did last time. The problem here is that, as I said in edit reasons, the only person who's been making these comments is Where Helicopters Go, AKA LZ. a former ghostwriter of the fan fic who has had a well documented grudge against and feud with the author. And I'm not sure they should be allowed to use TV Tropes as an outlet for what honestly feels like an expression of a personal vendetta. Imagine if someone I didn't like wrote a fan fic and I went on to the fan fic and started making as many posts as I could about how horrible it was simply because I didn't like the author. It would essentially be cyber-bullying. Now I'm NOT saying that LZ is guilty of cyber-bullying. But I feel that allowing people to make negative comments when they have ulterior personal motives can lead to rather unpleasant situations.

Actually, positive OR negative. I really don't think anyone with a personal tie to an author or work should make YMMV posts since it honestly feels like it have too much inherent bias.

Also, I do believe that the Villain Sue entry IS factually incorrect. As there are definitely holes in Chrysalis's plan that lead to her defeat and she has a Fatal Flaw which is her world-view. This by it's very existence contradicts the definition of a Mary Sue of any kind which is "A character so perfect, that they can never be challenged within the context of the narrative."

Chrysalis IS challenged, DOES suffer setbacks, and her plan slowly crumbles thanks to the logical efforts and actions of the characters.

YMMV pages are designed to host opinions about the subject they are about, in this case Pony POV Series.

I don't think it's productive or useful to speculate about the reasons why someone adds a given opinion here. Even if there are haters who don't like the author, we can not know for sure unless the entries they add are some form of creator bashing, hate speech against the creator, libel or a systematic campaign to add negative tropes and YMMV items. All of these things are deletion-worthy (and in many cases report-to-the-moderators worthy), but "otherwise OK opinion about the work that happens to be added by someone who may have an axe to grind" is not, ceteris paribus of course.

Looking at the opinions in question, some of them are removal-worthy (Author Tract is an objective trope that doesn't go on YMMV pages and is not the place to complaint about a creator, and Creator's Pet doesn't explain how it fits the Creator's Pet criteria) and should stay off, though. Also, I note that even by How to Write an Example this page is not very well written.

Okay, so I'll add Arc Fatigue back and leave out Author Tract and Creator's Pet. What about the whole Villain Sue thing I mentioned above though?

That example (Villain Sue) is a Zero-Context Example and needs to go.

I'm also questioning on the Draco in Leather Pants thing . Since most comments for the fic surounding Chrysalis seem to be Love to Hate rather than Draco in Leather Pants. And the comment about how the changelings have no redeeming quality also strikes me as factually untrue since many DO have redeeming qualities. (Loyalty to their loved ones and their race, the fact that thier mindset and beliefs have been manipulated for years by chrysalis, fear of what the ponies would do to them if they were revealed, courage ect.)

And again with this line:

• "Princess Gaia" is arguably a Draco in Leather Pants, even in-universe. Her actions should by all means have caused extreme paranoia and fear that any other Element could snap like her... And indeed, as other timelines show, they do. Yet we're meant to just accept that it's an Esoteric Happy Ending that she cured some of the troubles Discord caused and magically hoofwaved them away. Certainly the implications for foals are dealt with and some did dislike Fluttershy for her actions - but the implications beyond Fluttershy, the fear that should be festering in the minds of ponies about the Elements of Harmony, saviours that could become oppressors, and not just all worry focused on Fluttershy.
• Every single Nightmare character, in Dark World or alternative timelines, is arguably beyond sympathy for their actions. Yet filler tries to hammer it into us that we should somehow feel sorry for these lunatics, making this a good case for them being Draco in Leather Pants.

There has been in universe explanations for the first point, and as for the second, it's been established that the Nightmares are INSANE and can never be anything else. They're essentially ponies who were Mind Raped into developing a Superpowered Evil Side.

And the God-Mode Sue one?

And related things like:

• Seasonal Rot: The Wedding Arc. Very poor editing, yet another overpowered Villain Sue, and fairly blatant God Moding by the author. Even the people that like the arc think that certain parts could be handled better.

• Writer on Board: The Wedding Arc also arguably suffers from this, including some rather blatant Take That! moves against any criticism.

And the Possesion Sue bit?

I would check if these Draco in Leather Pants entries may be better off in Unintentionally Sympathetic.

And there's this part on Arc Fatigue:

• The Wedding Arc is already becoming this, in no small part thanks to Chrysalis being so overpowered, but due to the simple fact it's the penultimate arc... and seems set to add nothing but to devalue everything else.

Mainly because there's no explanation for what "devalue everything else" actually means.

My opinions on the current entries, keeping in mind that I don't know the work at all:

The God-Mode Sue writeup in the history is good (assuming it's factually accurate that is), although the second bullet point has to go since it's a Justifying Edit.

Seasonal Rot is misusing God Mode - it's a game trope - so that reference has to go.

Writer on Board is a Zero-Context Example - and the Take That! bit goes into the main page if it can be expanded upon.

Possession Sue does not explain to me how it applies, so I would cut that. I notice that a lot of ZCE entries look like creator bashing to me.

Arc Fatigue: Needs more context, yeah.

Okay, the "Factually Accurate" part of God-Mode Sue is in question IMO since a lot of the reasons given (The Idiot Ball and Ass Pull moments) I don't believe ARE Idiot Ball or Ass Pull moments. Plus as I mentioned above, her plan ISN'T perfect.

I had a long discussion with Helicopter about it which I can transcribe here:

Helicopter:You state that Chrysalis is seen as a sue because she did the research: I feel it's a little more complicated than that. Bear in mind, she did the "research" via a Peggy Sue trope, a trope she only gains thanks to events that don't quite add up, and a trope she only accesses because she's a cast-off of Cadence. But if there are people citing that one thing as their sole example, yeah, that is pretty flimsy when there's plenty more evidence towards it. For instance, her entire scheme makes no sense: Her infiltration plan by all rights should have been exposed one way or another even with handwaves as it's just way too large and too reliant on luck - it just leaves the impression the good guys were incompetent or blind. She's also been given an upgrade from canon in numerous places other than being a cast-off of Cadence. Had she just did her research properly and used a more plausible scheme for her infiltration, there would be less of a problem. But Alex Warlorn, as is often the case, wanted to go for something that he liked the sound of, and damn the fact it might not all add up or might even contradict the goal he thinks he's working towards.

Lunacorva: You state that Chrysalis is seen as a sue because she did the research: I feel it's a little more complicated than that. Bear in mind, she did the "research" via a Peggy Sue trope, a trope she only gains thanks to events that don't quite add up, and a trope she only accesses because she's a cast-off of Cadence. But if there are people citing that one thing as their sole example, yeah, that is pretty flimsy when there's plenty more evidence towards it. For instance, her entire scheme makes no sense: Her infiltration plan by all rights should have been exposed one way or another even with handwaves as it's just way too large and too reliant on luck - it just leaves the impression the good guys were incompetent or blind. She's also been given an upgrade from canon in numerous places other than being a cast-off of Cadence. Had she just did her research properly and used a more plausible scheme for her infiltration, there would be less of a problem. But Alex Warlorn, as is often the case, wanted to go for something that he liked the sound of, and damn the fact it might not all add up or might even contradict the goal he thinks he's working towards.

Helicopter: Thanks. I'll try to explain the things that don't add up in her plan for me. First, there's the distraction itself. It fails to account for a large and significant portion of the Guard, it fails to account for the fact that their traitor-general would not have enough pull to order that, it fails to account for the questions that such an order should reasonably raise when issued, and there's the fact that with all those infiltrations and insertions, there are a range of questions, including a large contradiction in the story's timeline.

Lunacorva: On the point of the Traitor General, a General is by definition the leader of an army, or division of the military, a Generals orders are obeyed at all cost. While in the civilian population questions may be raised, within the military the lower echelons are trained specifically to follow orders and not to think about where they came from nor the possible ramifications.

Helicopter: Her foresight gives her about a year and a half to have changed track (from Makarov's deletion). How is it even possible to get infiltrators in and change her plan from canon? By all rights she would have been sticking to the heart world plan until that point, and as established in this setting, the guard take a year to train. Nothing explains her switch in the first place. The peggy sue aspect just makes her alter her original plan.

Lunacorva: It was established in her origin episode that she had been setting up infiltrator LONG before the encounter with Makarov. (As you mentioned, even before the Peggy Sue thing she was shown to be MUCH more competant than her canon equivalent. So her plan wouldn't have had to change that much and those small changes could have been implemented within a year. All other elements (Changeling in position of general ect.) Could have been set up LONG before the Makarov Incident. Being erased by Makarov just gave her knowledge she otherwise wouldn't have had.

Second, even if they are shapeshifters, surely red flags would be raised at some point. Yeah, it emerges in a handwave that surprised no one they're basically a mutated subspecies of ponies, but surely Celestia and Luna can identify what kind of pony they're infusing with their power or spot something is amiss? There's workarounds for that but we've simply not been shown them, and again there's only a year and a half to do it in. And with the fact they're mutants, I find it hard to believe someone didn't get lucky and notice something odd, or a changeling botched their infiltration and accidentally left a loose thread someone could unravel.

Lunacorva: If they've had 10 years to prepare, they've had all that time to watch and learn, and once they've got what they needed from watching (which is less than 10 years by a large margin) they can take over that person's place, and start living their lives, which gives them years of practice in the field. As for Celestia and Luna, they are still just 2 beings, they cannot be everywhere at once, nor know everything that happens in a specific instant of time. And at no point does it say that infusing a guard with their essence gives Celestia OR Luna any form of link to the subject. It merely alters those ponies appearences. In fact the exact quote (found here) is Luna: "I am the only true embodiment of night. I will tolerate no pretenders to my throne, and I liked the color. And every pony that swears themselves to my half of the army KNOWS the conditions for joining. You infuse your troops with a micro-fraction of your essence, I infuse mine the same way. It's written in BIG BOLD LETTERS in size forty font across two pages with before and after pictures that they'll turn black, become nocturnal, grow to dislike sunlight and exchange feather wings for batwings when they become Night Guards. Bats are my creation, of course I'd use those opposed to birds."

As for someone noticing something odd, if it's a single action, it could simply be something unusual, but nothing to remark upon. If it's over a period of time and repetitive, yet not completely out of character for the being involved (i.e they're normally a kind and gentle pony, but are acting malicious and cruel), then again, it's simply written off as an affectation rather than something that is decidedly odd and remarkable.

Helicopter: Third, the large amount of infiltrations around the world surely cannot have gone unseen. Other nations, accidents, traitors... even all the refugee changelings, not one of them tried to warn anyone? It all seems rather implausible to me.

Lunacorva: Why would these other infiltrations have been noticed? Did anything change in these nations? Did anything noteworthy happen within them? I'd say such a thing would be unlikely since it was made clear that Chrysalis was making sure the changeling's kept a low profile.

Anyway, as for accidents, I'm sure that there would have been a few, and while using complacency of the general populace would be convenient here, I'll give a few possibilities instead: Perhaps there was an accident involving one of the changelings, and perhaps it was noticed. Anyone trying to keep a low profile would replace the one that had those accidents within a short amount of time if not outright removing them from play (not killing them, but removing the changeling) and return the actual pony in place with a memory imprint or transfer (And as Moth's chapter showed, implanting false memories IS possible), and choosing another target. Another alternative is that these accidents were so small that they would simply be overlooked. If one happened to be a loss of the shapeshift and reversion to changeling form, then a little bit of mind magic would be needed to preserve one's identity (yes that's a cheap answer, but still possible and usable in this setting).

Helicopter: Fourth, the nature of expelling the guard makes no sense either, since to go as far as stated they'd all have been killed because they'd have had to enter low orbit. Not to mention that being able to pick them out makes no sense (I feel it made no real sense in canon either BTW and just compounded the rushed feel to the canonical episode) and fails to account for buildings in the way: Many of those guards should have been asleep or indoors. In fact picking them out somewhat contradicts the handwave that seems aimed at trying to address why changelings were not spotted by medical exams or the like. What exactly marks Pony Guards out as separate from Changeling Guards? I cannot see anything that would.

Lunacorva: Actually that's pretty easily explained. We can consider it a "Repulsion Spell" that blocks and repels any pony of a certain category. Though tis category has to be physical in nature and can only be one category (Ie: Expel all Changelings, or Expel all Night Guards). Which is a believable limitation. And considering that it carries a massive FLAW (ie: NOT getting rid of other guards such as Misfit Actual), it kind of goes against your "Chryalis is an absolutely perfect villain who can never be challenged" argument.

Helicopter: Fifth, Canterlot's response to this all is just poorly written and seems extraordinarily silly to me. Martial law is declared and the ponies... don't seem affected at all. They go about their business, despite the fact that martial law doesn't even work that way. I know they're ponies, which sometimes seems synonymous with 'morons' the way Alex writes, but this just really seems silly to me, to blindly accept authority that is behaving oddly.

Lunacorva: You have a point there. With no outside produce, food supplies would dwindle, and there would be a palpable sense of fear and tension from the ponies, yet they would also feel as though they are safe and secure behind the shield. Those who feel as though they are safe and their defenses impenetrable would feel invulnerable and think that nothing could harm them, so it is possible that they would act, if not completely the same, close to it. While Martial Law might not seem to act this way, in a place like Equestria, and especially Canterlot, there would be little reason for the Guards to be in any way forceful in their keeping of said Law the way it would be in our world. I will admit that the way it was dealt with would be highly likely to create a mass panic and hysteria though. That being said though, it was made clear by Chrysalis that she knew they'd be found out eventually and that the infiltration was only a temporary measure.

Helicopter: Finally, the story fails to account for the rest of the world. Canterlot is a capital. These events should result in a large Griffin fleet floating off Manehattan and a larger Equropean one off Stalliongrad asking what the hell is going on, because Equestria just sent armies to the Buffalo lands and none of their ambassadors are replying to them. Also, they didn't invite anyone to the wedding. The wedding of a diplomat who went all around the world.

Lunacorva: Finally, the story fails to account for the rest of the world. Canterlot is a capital. These events should result in a large Griffin fleet floating off Manehattan and a larger Equropean one off Stalliongrad asking what the hell is going on, because Equestria just sent armies to the Buffalo lands and none of their ambassadors are replying to them. Also, they didn't invite anyone to the wedding. The wedding of a diplomat who went all around the world.

Helicopter: The numbers of changelings available are part of the problem IMO, as their sheer volume should have raised suspicions. Getting them in place 100% successfully doesn't add up for me.

Lunacorva: Mistakes can be covered up easily, especially when one has the use of mind magics.

Helicopter: Plus, as noted, she did not actually have decades: She had a year and a half. The cause for her change of plan from canon is meant to be something that had a time-sensitive aspect, but she already had changed from canon. The peggy sue aspect was therefore utterly pointless: if she'd just been acting differently from canon, it'd be no problem. But now, things just don't add up, IMO, and as a result, I feel she's getting away with things that just aren't possible. Not to mention that, again, if it's meant to have followed the heart world until a point that is at best a year and a half ago from the story then yet more of the changeling acts don't reasonably have a cause to vary from canon. Kabuto and that rune, for instance. They never happened in canon. What explains their insertion? I don't see anything.

Lunacorva: As I said, it was established in her Villain Episode that she had been planning her invasion and setting things in motion LONG before meeting Makarov. All meeting Makarov did was give her a few extra tools she could use (like knowing about Half Light Noon and being able to brainwash her). In-fact, I don't think the story itself EVER said that her encounter with Makarov was what changed all her plans. That's something TV tropes said under Adaptational Badass (Which I've honestly been meaning to change because it's inaccurate.) The POV series itself showed she was far more competant, determined and ruthless than her Heart World counterpart ever was.

So if context is added to those deemed zero-context would they be able to go back up? Some of them could use updates now they're highlighted thanks to the progress of the story: Arc Fatigue would apply simply because the wedding arc has, IMO, just gone on far too long for what was claimed to be a short bit before the true finale: it's delaying the true end of the story. Also, as for devaluing, basically I feel the way that the arc has been handled and events within it have undermined the message and tone of the story, have derailed characters, and generally sours previous parts of the story for me knowing that so much of it is essentially a falsehood as thanks to the way the changelings are and act, nothing can be trusted.

And, I'd like to clarify, I was not a ghostwriter, I was a co-writer. I was given credit for my work. There were problems but this is nothing personal against Alex, these are problems with the story in my opinion.

I've tried to clean up a few entries and add context. Anything else that should be done to them?

The page needs some heavy Example Indentation in Trope Lists cleanup.

Even though this was resolved a week ago, I only just noticed this and wanted to add my two cents. The original entries DID seem rather inflammatory and felt like personal attacks against Alex, despite what you may have intended. I'd like to say, I'm glad the problem's been addressed, because it had been bugging me for months, but I couldn't figure out how to fix it without outright removing the points in question. I still don't really agree with your points, but I understand how you reached those conclusions and have no intention of repeating that incident a few months back that got us both edit-blocked here.

These spelling edits are undesirable. The rule we follow is basically "who gets here first gets the cake", so there should be no such spelling edits at all.

Well, the Example Indentation for starters can use a big fix.