Frozen is listed under both Friendly Fandoms and Fandom Rivalry. That seems incredibly contradictory.
Which one is it?
Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
I need a mango.
I've sort of been thinking about adding the "They died when I was 3, remember?" line regarding the Hamada parents as Narm. In a film that I feel had a nicely flowing script, this line of exposition was very strangely placed, especially because it's said as if Tadashi, the older sibling, doesn't remember that their parents died, or when for that matter. We know that it's to let the audience know, but when he's addressing Tadashi in such detail about the event it feels so strange.
Edited by WhoNeedsAMango Hide / Show Replies
Doesn't fit as Narm, but it is a case of As You Know. Try adding it under that.
Oh, I forgot about that trope. Is that a subjective trope or can it go on the main page?
Edited by WhoNeedsAMango
I'm sorry, but this doesn't work:
- Family-Unfriendly Aesop: The villain going on a criminal rampage resulting in his daughter essentially coming back from the dead and Krei suffering huge financial damage, neither of which would have happened if Callaghan hadn't gone full supervillain, and either of which he'd have given his life for. While his expression in his final scene is up for debate, he does end the movie with more than he could have hoped for, leading to the accidental aesop of crime paying.
First of all this is Accidental Aesop, not Family-Unfriendly Aesop. Second of all, he doesn't end with more than he hoped for. Hell, going by the chronological events of the movie, he ends with less. And it's not just about the expression either. Saying the expression is ambiguous is a flimsy reason to add it back it in. Please take note that now that he has his daughter back, there was no reason to destroy Krei's property. So now he's not only in jail and facing punishment, but he's separated from his daughter. Look at it this way: he succeeded in destroying Krei's property, but what came out of it? His daughter, of course, but again, he's separated from her and is going to face punishment for his actions. Does he look well off in the end? For the aesop to work, it has to imply that Callaghan is better off in the end than he is now and that he's getting off scot free. But whatever his expression at the end means, it shows that he's not better off.
In other words, this entry implies that Callaghan is a Karma Houdini and is better off in the end. But he's neither.
Edited by SatoshiBakura Hide / Show Replies
Thanks for the Accidental Aesop correction; you're right, that's absolutely better.
I'm not trying to imply he's a Karma Houdini at all, as he does get punished. That said, he was entirely fine with faking his death on a whim, basically giving up any chance he had of having a normal life, and by the end went and revealed himself as Yokai. Clearly, he was out of fucks to give.
And... yeah, he is better off at the end. He cares more about his daughter being alive than he does his own life (in that he's given up his life at the chance to avenge her). His actions make that very clear.
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Yes, but that still doesn't explain the entry.
- What you think the movie is saying: Trying to get revenge on someone will leave you better off in the end because you will accomplish what you wanted to do.
- What movie is actually saying: Yes, but you will get punished, and everyone will hate you.
He obviously didn't to the right thing, and now he's getting punished for it. This is the reason why Pyrrhic Villainy exists. Yes Callaghan got what he wanted, but he didn't leave the movie happy or unpunished. The real message coming from this is "even if you're bad actions get what you want, you still have to face the consequences".
And hell, your argument on how his expression is ambiguous makes no sense. He is clearly sad when arrested. Whether it's at being separated from his daughter or guilt from all the destruction he caused, he doesn't look that well off.
Thinking about it, how he feels really has nothing to do with it. He's clearly facing consequences, and the very fact that he has received karma nullifies your point. Again, it's Pyrrhic Villainy. Your example is just stretching it.
Edited by SatoshiBakura
The crux of the argument is that, facing consequences or not, he still has more than he did before. He was perfectly willing to throw away his life on a whim, faking his death just for a chance to get revenge on the guy who killed his daughter.
Let me put it this way: Do you think being punished and hated is worth bringing his daughter back to life? The man had no attachment to his life (I keep using life to mean "day-to-day life as a productive member of society, not that he's killing himself. I apologize for any confusion there). He didn't get what he wanted, he got something way better than he could've even hoped for.
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^ That's in theory. You're making assumptions. You are clearly ignoring the fact that he's being punished for his actions. Even if one gets more than what they wanted, that doesn't change the fact that they have to face consequences.
We have no proof that he gets more than he wanted at the end. In fact, the only proof of how he feels at the end clearly contradicts that! Now if Callaghan were smiling, than yes, you would be right. But he's not. That one expression clearly shows that his negative emotions outweigh the positives.
The thing is that the fact that his daughter came back does not justify his actions in any way. Hell, if anythingThe thing is since she was in hypersleep, Abigail was alive anyway. If they eventually had successfully rebuilt the portal, then they could get her back. Even if Callaghan's actions led to her being rescued, that doesn't change the fact that Tadashi died. And Tadashi did not die for her life, as Abigail would be alive anyway, regardless of what Callaghan did. Sure, Callaghan might have been willing give up his life for her, but that wouldn't change anything but only delay her rescue.
Oh wait a second, he wasn't giving up his life for Abigail. He was giving up his life for vengeance. He wanted Alister Krei to pay for what happened to Abigail. In fact, all that Callaghan got in the end was knowledge that his daughter was alive. But he's still separated, and he's now depressed, so that's not much different for Callaghan. Nothing indicates that he was merely glad that his daughter was alive. It all seems to point towards him wanting to reunite with his daughter, but he never accomplishes that. He doesn't want his daughter alive, he wants her back.
Edited by SatoshiBakura
How is it an assumption that Callaghan wants his daughter back more than anything else? He explicitly says it ("I'll give you anything you want" "I want my daughter back").
The entry isn't justifying his actions, it isn't calling him a Karma Houdini (those sort of seem like contradictory claims, honestly). It's just saying that his criminal actions led to an unexpectedly positive outcome for him.
His daughter never would've come back if he didn't do precisely what he did (even if he rebuilt the portal on his own, Baymax's enhanced scanners were what found his daughter... and those scanners were done to hunt Yokai). And getting his daughter back is the one thing in the world he wants the most. He's certainly got a better chance of reuniting with her now that she's alive than when she was (for all intents and purposes) dead.
We seem like we're just going around in circles, hopefully we can get some fresh eyes on it.
Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Does this really qualify as an aesop, period? It looks a bit too much like a generic "good guys win" thing to me.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Callaghan's the bad guy, his daughter comes from the (legally) dead due to events directly caused by him turning to crime.
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- Accidental Aesop: Callaghan saw Hiro's robots, and saw a chance to ruin Alister Krei, the same way his own life was ruined when his daughter Abigail died. So he faked his death, killed one of his own students (without any remorse), and mass-produced enough mini-bots to destroy Alister Krei's corporation in an accident similar to the way his own daughter died. He clearly wanted nothing more than revenge after that, not even his own life. Instead of finding a way to get his daughter back, he sought revenge against Krei. When Baymax uses the enhanced scanners near the portal device, it notifies Hiro that there are life signs. Hiro and Baymax rescue Abigail, making Callaghan happy again.
A couple quick tweaks:
- Accidental Aesop: Callaghan saw Hiro's robots, and saw a chance to ruin Alister Krei, the same way his own life was ruined when his daughter Abigail died. So he faked his death, killed one of his own students (without any remorse), and mass-produced enough mini-bots to destroy Alister Krei's corporation in an accident similar to the way his own daughter died. He clearly wanted nothing more than revenge after that, not even his own life. Instead of finding a way to get his daughter back, he sought revenge against Krei. When Baymax uses the enhanced scanners near the portal device, it notifies Hiro that there are life signs. Hiro and Baymax rescue Abigail, bringing her back: the one thing that he explicitly wanted most. While he doesn't get away scot-free, as a direct result of his crimes his daughter is essentially back from the dead, creating the accidental aesop that in some ways, crime is worth it.
Anyone have any other thoughts?
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I think this is more a case of Square Peg Round Trope. Try Sweet and Sour Grapes instead, with the caveat that he does not willingly give up the grapes.
Does Yokai count as an example of the Evil Is Cool trope?